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      12-07-2012, 11:20 PM   #111
Coltgus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
I don't agree with this for two reasons. First, the dealer will make a lot more off of the OP paying 100% than if BMWNA agreed to warrantee it. If they were covering it, they would not be doing all of that other (likely unnecessary) work.

Also, I personally have had warranty work denied from one dealer, then towed it to another for fully covered work. Similarly, I've seen quite a few others that I personally know with similar experiences. Matter of fact, when asked, I suggested that a friend go to Foreign Motors West instead of Herb Chambers in Boston, where they bought the car. Well, they didn't heed my advice, were denied, and they subsequently towed the car to the other dealership for no questions asked coverage...
There is no way in hell any dealer would do the work for free or maybe that's too strong, it's a 100 to 1 shot. As far as being denied at 1 dealer and then getting approved at another either the 1st dealer didn't bother to try and get an approval or just didn't want to deal with the customer ( that could be the case if the customer had given poor scores on a CSI survey ). Of course I'm in Florida and only understand our dealers, maybe things are different where you live.
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      12-07-2012, 11:23 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontrelli
the bottom of the diff has taken two direct hits here ..those are not going to be caused by pebbles like the OP claims..
You do know what you are looking at? The arrows point to areas maybe 1/16" on the left and 1/8" on the right? The picture was taken with my phone about 4 inches away from the diff with the flash forced on. The affected areas are smaller than pebbles and far smaller than the gravel put down on roads before a snow. You guys know that larger abrasion area is chamfered from the factory, right?

You guys also know if you run over a curb or something then the entire bottom of the car looks like a battle zone. You don't need to search for miniscule damage in that case.

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Originally Posted by m3an
exactly the point, part of the heat sink fins appear to be cracked.
What is going on here?

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Originally Posted by m3an View Post
Deal w/ it. They don't have to prove anything to you; YOU need to prove to them. And in this case, yes it sucks, yes it may not even be related or possible, but you have given them the ammo (any scrapes/bruises on the underside) for denying the repairs.
No. If this makes it all the way to litigation, it will be BMW's responsibility as the defendant to prove that the damage cited could cause the differential bolt failure.

Last edited by bvanderbilt; 12-07-2012 at 11:29 PM.
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      12-07-2012, 11:28 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by bvanderbilt View Post
You do know what you are looking at? The arrows point to areas maybe 1/8" wide. The picture was taken with my phone about 4 inches away from the diff with the flash forced on. The affected areas are smaller than pebbles. You guys know that larger abrasion area is chamfered from the factory, right?



No. If this makes it all the way to litigation, it will be BMW's responsibility as the defendant to prove that the damage cited could cause the differential bolt failure.
IMO if this goes to litigation that sounds silly for a relatively cheap repair compared to the dealer cost. A warranty is just like insurance; you hold the burder of proof; otherwise the dealer would be overrun w/ people complaining of everything under the sun and the dealer wouln't be able to keep up.

I honestly feel your pain and it sucks, but if this is the worst thing that ever happens to you, you're blessed; good luck
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      12-07-2012, 11:36 PM   #114
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Strange that 99.99% of cases of diff bolt failures involve MT cars.
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      12-07-2012, 11:36 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by m3an View Post
IMO if this goes to litigation that sounds silly for a relatively cheap repair compared to the dealer cost. A warranty is just like insurance; you hold the burder of proof; otherwise the dealer would be overrun w/ people complaining of everything under the sun and the dealer wouln't be able to keep up.
I said "if", from research on the forums I'd say 99% of these types of things never make it to trial.

Let's play spot the damage:



It's quite clear to see the underside of my car has never impacted anything.
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      12-07-2012, 11:48 PM   #116
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How about takin BMW NA to a small claim court? It's fairly easy to do, you can file for as much ten grand claim.
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      12-07-2012, 11:58 PM   #117
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How about takin BMW NA to a small claim court? It's fairly easy to do, you can file for as much ten grand claim.
I have no relationship or contact with BMW NA; my sole experience with BMW is through this dealership -- therefore I will start with the dealership. There are three trial lawyers in my immediate family alone; I am no stranger to litigation. The sad thing is I had/have an excellent working relationship with this dealer at least on the sales side, as I never needed much in the way of service prior, and as I've said, have a habit of buying a new M-car every two years. I would like to preserve the relationship.

It's my impression that the dealer/regional FSE may actually be truly unaware of the frequency of differential bolt failures reported on these cars -- and that's why they've resorted to trying to find "something" to blame. The only time the techs weren't staring at the ground is when they told me they'd never seen this before; so I do believe them.

Effective litigation inevitably results in hurt feelings and should only be a last resort. I am hoping lower levels of escalation are effective.
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      12-08-2012, 12:55 AM   #118
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I have no relationship or contact with BMW NA; my sole experience with BMW is through this dealership -- therefore I will start with the dealership.There are three trial lawyers in my immediate family alone; I am no stranger to litigation. The sad thing is I had/have an excellent working relationship with this dealer at least on the sales side, as I never needed much in the way of service prior, and as I've said, have a habit of buying a new M-car every two years. I would like to preserve the relationship.

It's my impression that the dealer/regional FSE may actually be truly unaware of the frequency of differential bolt failures reported on these cars -- and that's why they've resorted to trying to find "something" to blame. The only time the techs weren't staring at the ground is when they told me they'd never seen this before; so I do believe them.

Effective litigation inevitably results in hurt feelings and should only be a last resort. I am hoping lower levels of escalation are effective.
BMW NA is the one who makes the final decision on the Warranty work. A small claim can cover as much as $6,100. Most big companies will settle when they get served. Filing usually run less than $250 on a claim like that. But you ll file in their hometown by mail.
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      12-08-2012, 01:02 AM   #119
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Being that you currently own three M3's, it shocks me that your dealership won't fight for your claim with BMW NA. I suggest you explain your situation directly to NA Warranty Claims. Sorry to hear about this unfortunate situation!
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      12-08-2012, 02:52 AM   #120
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PM Sent. I had the same exact issue with my E90 last year.
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      12-08-2012, 05:57 AM   #121
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FGS dealers LIKE warranty work...they get paid to do it by BMW.
A service dept rarely has too much work.
They are blanking you for this job because they believe BMW USA will not reimburse them for the work.
Start from that position and move forward.
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      12-08-2012, 08:19 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelvinMrBMWBey
Bvanderbuilt, I am not hiding or attempting to insult you. It sounds like you hit something that's all. I did take the time to google you or send any emails about you or anything of the sort. Based on what you wrote it sounds to me meaning in my opinion that you hit something. Maybe you didnt hit it that day, maybe you did I dont know. People are entitled to thier opinions and my opinion is that it sounds like you hit something. Thats all I have to say about it. Yes I do work at a BMW store you can check out my rating, I am Certified and have a 99% percent customer satisfaction rating at BMW as well as dealerrater.com. I take care of my customers and when they need to hear the truth I just give it, because thats all they really pay me for. The truth. Hope you get it fixed under warranty some how just like I said before.
Why don't you stop posting on here and go back to "satisfying" your customers with the. "truth"?
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      12-08-2012, 10:21 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by bvanderbilt View Post
There are numerous cases on the forums of reversed BMW NA decisions.

A good dealer would stand by their customer and at least attempt to assist them with the process if that's what is required. You would think a dealer contacting BMW NA to argue on behalf of a customer would have a lot more weight than the customer on his own.

The dealer profit on the car I was attempting to buy (2013 M3) is likely greater than the quoted repair cost. Independent quotes for the same work were half the dealer quote; though I was told that the quote was "total BS" and that the only thing needed to be done was a new bolt.

There are a lot of things the dealer could do... besides what they have done.
It sounds like they're shopping you. Unless the carrier is bent (which I doubt very much that it is) that bolt could simply be extracted and replaced. I've seen these a few times from cars that have been tracked, not saying you have, but it's possible that it has broken from a agressive shift.

The damage to the fuel tank and what looks to be the brace (not sure if its an E93) could be from improper lifting. Possibly the lift pad slipping off the lift point.

Like I said, just get them to extract and replace the bolt, and they should at least good-will the $5.00 bolt and 1 hour labour.

I know at the dealership I work at, we would be on your side the whole way.
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      12-08-2012, 10:34 AM   #124
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And..?

Even if he did "hit" something, do u understand what the shear stength of that bolt is..?

The same force applied to break the bolt, must also be at the contact point. Does it look like the underside of his vehicle sustained thousands of pounds of force/dmg?
While I have not actually done any calculations, I am strongly inclined to agree with this assessment. Indeed, I think most people don't really realize what the strength of a ~3/8 in. stainless steel bolt is, even if it is "just" the shear strength.

Of course, this implies a (probably irrefutable) line of argument for the OP in favor of his position, but he will probably need to do some rudimentary calculations to back it up . . .
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      12-08-2012, 11:16 AM   #125
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Coincidentally, I have launched my E46 M3 off of cement parking curbs... whole car went into the air.. My differential didn't break.


That kinda sounds bad ass.
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      12-08-2012, 11:44 AM   #126
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Elevate it higher - No issues like that from the dealer here, maybe because they don't want to give Mercedes the business.
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      12-08-2012, 11:50 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coltgus View Post
There is no way in hell any dealer would do the work for free or maybe that's too strong, it's a 100 to 1 shot. As far as being denied at 1 dealer and then getting approved at another either the 1st dealer didn't bother to try and get an approval or just didn't want to deal with the customer ( that could be the case if the customer had given poor scores on a CSI survey ). Of course I'm in Florida and only understand our dealers, maybe things are different where you live.
You might not be thinking of something. Honoring warranty items is mostly the decision of the individual dealership for most things.

In my case, I had a diff that was getting increasingly crunchy/grindy sounding. One dealer said that since I do driving events (predominantly autocross at the time) they would not cover it. Dealer two just replaced the diff, no questions asked.

Almost exact same story with a transfer case warranty on a 328xi that a friend was autocrossing.
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      12-08-2012, 12:27 PM   #128
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You might not be thinking of something. Honoring warranty items is mostly the decision of the individual dealership for most things.
Do you have any idea what the monetary amount is, such that, below which the dealer has discretion?
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      12-08-2012, 12:33 PM   #129
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Do you have any idea what the monetary amount is such that, below which, the dealer has discretion?
It's my understanding that there are guidelines that dealerships are to follow for most things, and some that require additional approval for warranty coverage. BMWNA will not reimburse if these guidelines are not followed. However, the act of following guidelines incorporates judgement calls, which BMWNA hopes is consistent, but is not always from my personal experience.
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      12-09-2012, 11:14 AM   #130
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Yes I do work at a BMW store you can check out my rating, I am Certified and have a 99% percent customer satisfaction rating at BMW as well as dealerrater.com
Do tell me if you can what position do you hold at your establishment?

How would you provide service to a stranded Canadian driver on a vacation trip should he drive up to your dealership and tell you

"I have a crack in my rear wheel of my new Z4 with RFT"

Would you tell him for example ...

"Sorry US and Canadian Warranty coverage is not the same and I can offer you only two choices,

A - we can have roadside services tow you to the nearest Canadian BMW dealership it is about 800 miles north from here or

B - we can order a new wheel for you and then ship the cracked wheel to the dealership of your choice.

What would you like us to do?

Naturally I opted for the new wheel to be mounted. So it was ordered and I paid for it some $700- dollars.

All the dealership then did drive my car in to there shop and check the wheel details (BMW Style 296 wheel) add some air into my leaking wheel and tell me "call us once you found a hotel so we can call you once the wheel arrives"

After one day wait in a hotel room I was called to tell me that the wheel arrived.

Once I was at the dealership I wanted to hand over my key and was told "Sorry we don't change wheels here we don't have the equipment this work is done at a local tire shop here in town"

So I followed the Parts manager and my new wheel to the tire shop down the street. The parts manager unloaded the wheel, interdicted me to the tire shop manager and then promptly left.

Naturally I was worried about my other wheels on my new car at that time only had just past 10,000 miles on the odomete. So I asked for the rest of the wheels to be taken off the car and checked for cracks. To my surprice the other rear wheel of my car had a hairline crack since it still heald the tire pressure I decided to do nothing and chance the drive home (some 2000 miles east from where I was).

I watched thru the glass two fellows removing my RFT from the rim with help of two tire irons, something told me man that cannot be right. Once the fellows were done they put my cracked wheel into a plastic bag and parked it in my two seater front passengier seat for the long ride home.

Once back home in Canada my dealership changed my rear wheel with the hairline crack without question. However, the one changed in the USA at IDAHO FALLsS BMW assigned tire shop was declared bend and over the runout limits set by BMW.

On close examination of the wheel I found four gauge marks left by the two tire irons in the designated BMW tire shop down the street from the dealership.

So after six months trying to explain to BMW Canada and BMW NA Customer Relations the above situation I was told "your wheel is bend"

So I simply gave up and I now have one of the most expensive garden hose holders on my street.

Now I told you this true story to see if you would declare this to be top notch service provided by BMW emplyiees that are 99% Certifyed like yourself?

How would you have handled this? Would you for example ...

Offerd the customer to help him locate a hotel room?

Offers him a rental while keeping the car in your dealership checking all the wheels.

Made sure that the point about warrenty being different in the US and Canada is correct? (It was found to be wrong later when I got back home).

As a Certifyed dealer would you not have made sure that the wheel change out was done properly without the use of tire irons?

Checked all the wheels for cracks?

Keep in mind the service provided to me in the US was by the Service Manager and Parts Manager ... In Canada as well as BMW Customer Relations on both side of the border all Supervisors. I wonder what there Customer Satisfaction percentage might be.

Needless to say my respect to dealerships has faded after driving BMW's for 25 years.

The bottom line to all this is there are dealerships and then there are dealerships in the end it is up to us to find the right one.
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      01-09-2013, 09:17 PM   #131
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Car was fixed by BMW at no cost to me and is back in the garage tonight.

To help or give some information to those facing a similar issue, here's what I did:

- I put together a binder of information; made a printout of the differential bolt issue thread on this site and highlighted important parts. Made printouts of the "damage" and the broken bolt. After arguing with all of you here I worked to consolidate and perfect my "60 second pitch" outlining why I was convinced this was a warranty issue, e.g. force necessary to shear that bolt would have shattered the cover.

- Took two weeks to get my ducks in a row; briefed my lawyer; put together basically a ten step plan with continuing higher levels of escalation. Got some analysis done by a friend who works as an expert witness for structural failures in industry; he was able to give me some good basic comparative data.

First step was calling BMW NA. They basically told me to go fuck myself. They put an "complaint specialist" on the phone who I guess is extra good at telling people where to go. Amusing but expected.

Second step was meeting with the service manager of my local dealership. I presented my case to him and stressed I wanted to keep the good relationship I have with the dealership intact. I told him I understood the issue was with BMW NA but I wanted to feel like he and the dealership were on my side. I was able to get him to say that he agreed with me in my analysis of the issue.

A week later he called me and told me BMW would be covering everything 100%. Week later car is home. I am very appreciative of the service manager for helping me out in this case.

My takeaway? Dealing with BMW NA without a lawyer is pointless. You need your dealership on your side or be ready to go to court. People at your dealership have personal relationships with folks at BMW NA corporate that we/you/I just don't have.
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      01-09-2013, 09:21 PM   #132
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Glad it turned out ok (although getting there was a PITA). Thanks for sharing.
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