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      12-04-2012, 11:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkPOTO View Post
I don't know why this became a bashing thread, I just wanted to put my review on this thread of a product that I believe is top notch. I can careless if people don't like it and think its stupid, I bought it because I was sick of my Technocraft and wanted to replace it with something bette
+1
Good review. I'm very happy with mine which was installed over 6 mts ago. The increased intake sound and mod looks is enough for me to justify having it. Along with the other mods (UDP, Tune and Akra) there is a noticible difference in power, even on track. Here is a link to one of my posted vids which will give readers an idea of the MS Stage 2 sound along with the Akra Evo exhaust. A GoPro Hero2 with external mic (placed under dash) was used. Please excuse the static (noise) which was caused by wind from both open windows hitting mic at the same time.


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      12-04-2012, 11:44 AM   #24
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Auto manufactures leave HP on the table all the time. They decide what is their desired performance number is and what will meet Global needs/laws/standards and stick with that. I have been adding HP to cars since I was 16 and this has always been the case.

Let's look at the m3. Why did BMW make a heavy ass muffler when we know it could be made much lighter reducing weight which will make the car quicker. Couldn't BMW make a filter which is more like after market versions to get 1-2 more HP? Couldn't BMW software tune more HP out of these cars? Couldn't BMW install higher flow cats while still passing all emissions. If all these things were done and the car can produce say 430-440 HP stock instead of 414, why did BMW not do this? If the car had 25 more HP but cost 1k more would it sell less or more?

If you can answer why BMW did not do the above and BMW can only get 414 out of the S65 motor then I will retract my questions and admit you are the BMW master
Wow that is an easy arguement to win. Its simple, everything you mentioned is either costly or has downside in terms of engine reliability and longevity (tune), high flow cats (expensive and more CO2), lighter muffler (really expensive)

Making a plastic elbow with a larger interior diameter is essentially a free process that costs no more than an elbow with a smaller diameter. A larger elbow has no emissions problems, longevity, driveability etc. That is why I said it makes no sense.

If you re-read your post its a bit silly to make the comparison to all these costly and emissions-unfriendly mods and say that if bmw didn't do those, then that explains why they did not use a piece of plastic with a bigger hole in it if 10hp was to be had
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      12-04-2012, 12:00 PM   #25
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nice review! thx 4 sharin
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      12-04-2012, 12:07 PM   #26
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Making or using heavy parts on a bmw such as the muffler is actually bmw's way to achieve 50-50 weight distribution. I wanna say they took that into consideration when they designed the car. It's not like they didnt know a lighter part was gonna weigh less, it's that they need the extra weight to balance the car better
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      12-04-2012, 12:25 PM   #27
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Yeah, lots of bashers around here who like to give unsolicited commentary on how others spend money and what they should/shouldn't do (it's one thing if you're asking for advice, another if someone is just out there to bash regardless of the OP's intent).

Also, BMW probably designed the intake for a paper filter....so saying that a larger elbow wouldn't matter may be true for paper filters, but may not be true for higher flow filters. Also factors such as engine noise, fuel efficiency (more power means more fuel), intake sound are things that we know BMW spends a lot of engineering time on and balancing vis a vis just outright power. The stock intake is also predicated on the assumption that there will be no other engine nor software modifications (ie tuned software can benefit from more airflow). Even a regular dyno isn't going to fully simulate the ram-air effect of a higher flowing medium at partial throttle.

There's a lot of evidence from BMW racing (where air intake restrictions exist to govern HP), respected german tuners, and dynos that we see independently across the globe and from those tuners that don't even sell intakes that demonstrate that not only are there gains, but gains that are fairly similar in magnitude. Seems like there's too much corroborative data out there to ignore. I'd like to see the evidence out there (beyond a couple AFE bash-tests) that demonstrate that larger intakes don't add power vs filter alone.

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I don't know why this became a bashing thread, I just wanted to put my review on this thread of a product that I believe is top notch. I can careless if people don't like it and think its stupid, I bought it because I was sick of my Technocraft and wanted to replace it with something bette
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      12-04-2012, 12:33 PM   #28
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Its not that intakes on many other cars do not add some flow and power but it simply does not on this car. The intake is a better design than any aftermarket or OEM intake in history. It is ridiculously over-engineered with the design of intake flow. A huge lower ram air duct on the bottom drivers side, ram air through the grilles and a hood vent for air escape to keep the velocity moving bringing it cool air and than at higher speeds reversing the use as air intake is drastically needed at high rpms and being able to use that hood vent as a third source of fresh cool air.

Also an elbow does not work different with a paper filter. A paper filter is a true restriction and even that yields only a 5hp gain. Simply put there is a limit to how much air a engine needs and given it is supplied with that its not making more HP with more air.

The filter does not create more power because it flows "more" air, but rather easing the restriction means the engine does less parastic work to draw the air through the filter and thus frees up a few hp. This does not apply with an elbow as there is actualy more work to suck more stagnant, lower velocity air from a larger diameter tube than it does to suck higher velocity air through the smaller OEM diameter.

So really the best combo is the OEM elbow with its higher velocity air moving and a oiled filter to get rid of the work the engine does to suck air in.

This intake is an engineering marvel in itself.
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      12-04-2012, 12:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Munit View Post
Its not that intakes on many other cars do not add some flow and power but it simply does not on this car. The intake is a better design than any aftermarket or OEM intake in history. It is ridiculously over-engineered with the design of intake flow. A huge lower ram air duct on the bottom drivers side, ram air through the grilles and a hood vent for air escape to keep the velocity moving bringing it cool air and than at higher speeds reversing the use as air intake is drastically needed at high rpms and being able to use that hood vent as a third source of fresh cool air.

Also an elbow does not work different with a paper filter. A paper filter is a true restriction and even that yields only a 5hp gain. Simply put there is a limit to how much air a engine needs and given it is supplied with that its not making more HP with more air.

The filter does not create more power because it flows "more" air, but rather easing the restriction means the engine does less parastic work to draw the air through the filter and thus frees up a few hp. This does not apply with an elbow as there is actualy more work to suck more stagnant, lower velocity air from a larger diameter tube than it does to suck higher velocity air through the smaller OEM diameter.

So really the best combo is the OEM elbow with its higher velocity air moving and a oiled filter to get rid of the work the engine does to suck air in.

This intake is an engineering marvel in itself.
I agree that the OEM intake on the S65 is much better that other cars out there. A larger intake may increase hp at higher RPM's, but also may decrease hp at lower RPM's due to a lower intake velocity. The OEM intake is very good and probably sufficient but I still prefer the sound of the MS intake.
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      12-04-2012, 01:00 PM   #30
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for technical folks here is a good article on the math that goes into simply calculating the guide veins on the inside of an airbox. If you look at the m3 airbox inside, there are nicely curved shaped pieces of plastic rather than simply a flat surface. This is just one of the many components that takes a bunch of math to minimize the pressure drop between incoming air and air after going through the filter.

You can be sure that M knew exactly the diameter of piping needing and wanted to maximize engine efficiency and power.

I can promise you macht schnell or AFE etc does not use complex computer modeling to adjust size and design for all of the factors that go into an airbox design.
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      12-04-2012, 01:37 PM   #31
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Interesting, do you have a link to (or can point to source of) the article? thx

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Originally Posted by Munit View Post
for technical folks here is a good article on the math that goes into simply calculating the guide veins on the inside of an airbox. If you look at the m3 airbox inside, there are nicely curved shaped pieces of plastic rather than simply a flat surface. This is just one of the many components that takes a bunch of math to minimize the pressure drop between incoming air and air after going through the filter.

You can be sure that M knew exactly the diameter of piping needing and wanted to maximize engine efficiency and power.

I can promise you macht schnell or AFE etc does not use complex computer modeling to adjust size and design for all of the factors that go into an airbox design.
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      12-04-2012, 04:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Wow that is an easy arguement to win. Its simple, everything you mentioned is either costly or has downside in terms of engine reliability and longevity (tune), high flow cats (expensive and more CO2), lighter muffler (really expensive)

Making a plastic elbow with a larger interior diameter is essentially a free process that costs no more than an elbow with a smaller diameter. A larger elbow has no emissions problems, longevity, driveability etc. That is why I said it makes no sense.

If you re-read your post its a bit silly to make the comparison to all these costly and emissions-unfriendly mods and say that if bmw didn't do those, then that explains why they did not use a piece of plastic with a bigger hole in it if 10hp was to be had
So I took your original quote as saying BMW ///M would never let HP sit on the table and in my response I stated.

"They decide what is their desired performance number is and what will meet Global needs/laws/standards and stick with that"

My point was not to argue about why/what BMW does to get the HP, my point was that BMW DOES leave HP on the table. I am fully aware why they put out a production car with the numbers they do, I was just stating that ///M could make more power if they wanted to and the cost would not be that incrementally more expensive and still be as reliable.

Hell I had cars in the past which I modified(intake, ignition, exhaust) which still passed emissions with flying colors, made much more HP and was able to put 75k-100k miles on the motor with no issues what so ever. I am sure that the mighty ///M division could do the same.
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      12-04-2012, 07:25 PM   #33
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So I took your original quote as saying BMW ///M would never let HP sit on the table and in my response I stated.

"They decide what is their desired performance number is and what will meet Global needs/laws/standards and stick with that"

My point was not to argue about why/what BMW does to get the HP, my point was that BMW DOES leave HP on the table. I am fully aware why they put out a production car with the numbers they do, I was just stating that ///M could make more power if they wanted to and the cost would not be that incrementally more expensive and still be as reliable.

Hell I had cars in the past which I modified(intake, ignition, exhaust) which still passed emissions with flying colors, made much more HP and was able to put 75k-100k miles on the motor with no issues what so ever. I am sure that the mighty ///M division could do the same.
But that is a silly point. With unlimited money of course there is horsepower to be gained. They could have used lighter valvetrain parts as well and had redline of 9k and peak hp of 450hp. They could have used magnesium wheels etc. So obviously you have to consider the cost per hp when using an example of how a company leaves hp on the table.

They don't leave cheap or free horsepower on the table such as making a plastic tube a larger diameter. They do leave horsepower on the table when the hp costs much more than market demands or project is budgeted for.

They eek out every last hp and get 414hp. If another 10 was available you better believe they would have used it.

If you do some investigation, you will see that there really is a calculation that determines optimal intake path. So I trust M's computational analysis over macht schnell and believe M's computer models of design are much more accurate

To each his own-I simply am saying the m3 airbox is completely overengineered for the needs of the car which is great for us but also means modding it is counterproductive
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      12-08-2012, 05:48 PM   #34
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These two clips/interviews with Steve Dinan (in this case on air intakes in the M5) highlight some good points: 1) manufacturers don't always max out hp (several theories are put forth in this interview in this situation); 2) theoretical calculations have to be tested out in the real world and a lot of times the calculations vs. actual testing yield different results. Not necessarily applicable in case of the M3 air box, but to say every manufacturer has maxed out hp is a pretty heroic assumption, as demonstrated in these really interesting videos (in addition to what has been seen in the real world from many tuners/dynos):








Quote:
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But that is a silly point. With unlimited money of course there is horsepower to be gained. They could have used lighter valvetrain parts as well and had redline of 9k and peak hp of 450hp. They could have used magnesium wheels etc. So obviously you have to consider the cost per hp when using an example of how a company leaves hp on the table.

They don't leave cheap or free horsepower on the table such as making a plastic tube a larger diameter. They do leave horsepower on the table when the hp costs much more than market demands or project is budgeted for.

They eek out every last hp and get 414hp. If another 10 was available you better believe they would have used it.

If you do some investigation, you will see that there really is a calculation that determines optimal intake path. So I trust M's computational analysis over macht schnell and believe M's computer models of design are much more accurate

To each his own-I simply am saying the m3 airbox is completely overengineered for the needs of the car which is great for us but also means modding it is counterproductive


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So I took your original quote as saying BMW ///M would never let HP sit on the table and in my response I stated.

"They decide what is their desired performance number is and what will meet Global needs/laws/standards and stick with that"

My point was not to argue about why/what BMW does to get the HP, my point was that BMW DOES leave HP on the table. I am fully aware why they put out a production car with the numbers they do, I was just stating that ///M could make more power if they wanted to and the cost would not be that incrementally more expensive and still be as reliable.

Hell I had cars in the past which I modified(intake, ignition, exhaust) which still passed emissions with flying colors, made much more HP and was able to put 75k-100k miles on the motor with no issues what so ever. I am sure that the mighty ///M division could do the same.

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      12-14-2012, 02:35 AM   #35
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The MS stage 2 has 22% more flow over stock. Talked to Randy Mueller (EPIC) and the tune he sent and MS made a big diff the car.
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      12-14-2012, 03:20 AM   #36
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How much of that is the air filter ? compared to the stock paper filter I mean.

Also it may flow more air and for sake of arguement say it does flow 22 percent more. However the engine is already getting enough air and does not need "more" air if the engine is already getting what it needs to run at full throttle.
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      12-20-2012, 11:00 PM   #37
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Just look to the GTS and CRT m3s and see that even then they left HP on the table...there's also some increased pricing. I don't think M division wanted to make a bunch of perfect race cars
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      12-31-2012, 03:53 PM   #38
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I have no experience with any of the intakes (except flirtations with the aFe green filter), and am reading this thread for research. But I have to ask:

Who's to say BMW M Division wouldn't have come up with similar design adjustments over the years? At some point, every design has to simply stop development so that production can happen. And once the molds are made and the Kukas programmed, any design changes require a lot more than additional modeling, prototyping and testing. The aftermarket shops are continuing a process that BMW had to call a stop on in order to actually make the cars. As a designer, I can say that no design is ever completed; you simply have to stop and get on with production.
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      01-01-2013, 08:15 PM   #39
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Question: what do you guys recommend in terms of leaving the MS Stage II intake either covered or uncovered? I recently removed the plastic cover after having it on for 6 months or so. The induction appears to be louder, which I like, but don't want to leave it off if it will cause some sort of harm (can't imagine what).

Thoughts?
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      01-01-2013, 11:27 PM   #40
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Would think keep it covered for a couple of reasons: 1) at part throttle air from the 2 front intakes is slightly pressurized and actually flows out of the hood vent (at full throttle the hood vent is an intake due to vacuum effect), 2) leaving it open would disrupt the airflow in the air box 3) there's more potential for heat from the engine increasing intake temps.

This is a quote from the M3 Aftersales Training Manual: "To optimize air resistance, no air-mass sensor is installed in the intake area. The air flow is determined using a model- based calculation from the aperture of the throttle valve assemblies and the idle speed actuator, the VANOS adjustment position, the engine speed, the air temperature and the atmospheric pressure."

ie sounds like the engineers designed the closed airbox the way it did for optimizing flow.
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      01-02-2013, 11:31 AM   #41
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Would think keep it covered for a couple of reasons: 1) at part throttle air from the 2 front intakes is slightly pressurized and actually flows out of the hood vent (at full throttle the hood vent is an intake due to vacuum effect), 2) leaving it open would disrupt the airflow in the air box 3) there's more potential for heat from the engine increasing intake temps.

This is a quote from the M3 Aftersales Training Manual: "To optimize air resistance, no air-mass sensor is installed in the intake area. The air flow is determined using a model- based calculation from the aperture of the throttle valve assemblies and the idle speed actuator, the VANOS adjustment position, the engine speed, the air temperature and the atmospheric pressure."

ie sounds like the engineers designed the closed airbox the way it did for optimizing flow.
Thanks man - I'll put the lid back on.
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      01-21-2013, 04:53 PM   #42
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I've found this review actually helpful even with the bickering. Throughout the entire read I was swayed from getting the MSs2 to getting nothing to just going for broke and getting the GruppeM mess. I'm still in a conundrum. $500 for the kit or $100 for the filter only? At the end of the day, it comes down to how light you would like your wallet to be... not your airbox.
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      01-22-2013, 12:12 PM   #43
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Quote:
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These are one of those situations that if you simply step back and use common sense you will see that its really not sensible that bmw M would use a restrictive elbow if there was 10hp on the table from using a slightly larger diameter pipe. The diamter being smaller is not necessarily more restrictive. Its likely calculated based on desired intake air velocity whichi requires a certain diameter. Larger diameter means slower moving air. So while it may move "more" air, the air is slower and would take more time. This intake does not have a restriction for air in totally stock form.

Evidence is in the GTS 4.4 stroked engine which uses the identical intake box as the stock s65 m3. Clearly a 4.4L if anything requires more air and the stock setup provides enough air for that so our stocker engine has more than enough air.

I think a dyno gain is for the filter only but to each his own. M would not leave 10hp on the table if it were a matter of tweaking the intake elbow diameter. Just makes zero sense
These are one of those situtions where it doesn't matter to you. Let the OP spend his own money! Maybe he is a multi-millionaire where $400 is penny change to him. And people care for aesthetics sometimes, not everything is about power. The forum has looked at this many times an most people are in agreement that there is really no noticable change in power (1-2 whp at most, probably not that because we aren't even that good at measuring that difference). I have now read multiple post from you and all you have typed was complete crap just prying for arguments.

Anyways, OP, thank you for the write up. It looks very nice.
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      01-22-2013, 12:13 PM   #44
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Quote:
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How much of that is the air filter ? compared to the stock paper filter I mean.

Also it may flow more air and for sake of arguement say it does flow 22 percent more. However the engine is already getting enough air and does not need "more" air if the engine is already getting what it needs to run at full throttle.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...not even going to comment on this logic!
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