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      08-20-2007, 10:59 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP20 View Post
People realize there's no Santa Claus, but they refuse to believe there's no god either.

If there was god, there wouldn't be so many innocent people dying from crimes and other unjustified causes, etc (and please don't say any of those "they went to a better place" bullshit).

If there was god, he certainly didn't deserve all the worships and respect - he can't be bothered to give 2 shit to save people, to help people when they truly need it.
Really that is a poor comparison.

God gave people a right to choose... some people have chosen to do evil things. Who are you to decide who is innocent, and how do you know what is justified and what is not??
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      08-20-2007, 11:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
I give to various secular organisations such as The Kidney Foundation, MS Society, Save the Childern etc. Will I burn in hell till "the end of time" because I REFUSE to give $$ to my local friendly Religious Institution??

Why does God want my money?
God doesnt want your money...
when you give to the church:
1. you are helping out this the church's existance
2. you are learning to be more humble and realize(if you believe in God) that everything you have is a blessing from God.

- You will not burn in hell because you didnt give money to a local church...
but those do not accept Jesus Christ as Savior are going to hell.
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      08-20-2007, 06:54 PM   #25
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My friend uabimmer

You made me laugh. You being a post by saying:
Quote:
enfield-i have realized that you are an angry lost man.
That is one heck of a way to make friends and influence people. I do not need to say much to you except that I would not call you an "angry lost man". I am sure you are at the cutting edge of being humble and nobody is more humble than you but just that statement makes you look Narcissistic. It sounds as though you know all the answers and you "know better". May I suggest that this is not the best way to influence people and make friends. Would Jesus approve of you being abusive?

Coming to Jesus. God did not send Jesus because Jesus does not exist and never existed. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

I think that there was always something their - and there will always be something left after the Earth comes to an end because "matter and energy cannot be destroyed and they are inter-convertable". You can call this God if you wish.

You come across as quite "superior". Are you saying that I lack the cognitive abilities to understand the Old Testament? That is not very polite or nice.

I found this interesting site about the Bible and what it says. Look over it. I would love to hear your thoughts.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

If you are really busy then just look at this and answer:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html
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      08-20-2007, 06:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
He doesnt want your money. Bro, Allah only asks that we pay 2.5% so that we are sharing our wealth with those who are poor and needy. I thought you would love this message in Islam. Apart from that, Allah encourages charity but does not place any more requirements on us...
I think the correct number is 2.587. Allah likes precision.
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      08-20-2007, 07:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATG View Post
I think the correct number is 2.587. Allah likes precision.
How about 3% - He likes round up better.

I have never been stingy with Allah swt and He has never been stingy with me.
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      08-20-2007, 07:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enfield View Post
My friend uabimmer

You made me laugh. You being a post by saying:


That is one heck of a way to make friends and influence people. I do not need to say much to you except that I would not call you an "angry lost man". I am sure you are at the cutting edge of being humble and nobody is more humble than you but just that statement makes you look Narcissistic. It sounds as though you know all the answers and you "know better". May I suggest that this is not the best way to influence people and make friends. Would Jesus approve of you being abusive?

Coming to Jesus. God did not send Jesus because Jesus does not exist and never existed. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

I think that there was always something their - and there will always be something left after the Earth comes to an end because "matter and energy cannot be destroyed and they are inter-convertable". You can call this God if you wish.

You come across as quite "superior". Are you saying that I lack the cognitive abilities to understand the Old Testament? That is not very polite or nice.

I found this interesting site about the Bible and what it says. Look over it. I would love to hear your thoughts.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

If you are really busy then just look at this and answer:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html
My intent was never to make you upset or be abusive, and if have done that then by all means i am sincerly sorry.
But in an earlier post you stated
Quote:
You are absolutely right - it is unkind of me to attack anyone's God. However, it is fun to see fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalists Christians unite on something!! My unkindness is for the greater good.
That my friend is not a joke, you mean to tell my that you are willing to make fun of a religion/God/Jesus, ect. just so you can get a kick out of it????

I respect that you have an opinion about God and Jesus but what i do no respect is that you think its funny to see people stand up for what they believe in.

I do not have all the answers and you may have more "knowledge" than me but what does that have to do with faith.

What comes as a surprise to me is that you bring up examples out of the Old Testament and New Testament and then say Jesus never existed...
So what are the prophesies in the OT all about?? has the messiah not come yet??
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      08-20-2007, 07:24 PM   #29
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Enfield, you will burn in an imaginary hell, but you will not know it.
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      08-20-2007, 07:25 PM   #30
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I have just began reading
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html

it is ridiculous that anything can be made fun of if it is pulled out of context
here is an example from the site.
"God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17 "

enfield, i believe you have read the Bible?? or at least the OT???
if you had then you wouldnt have posted that link since it is clear it is completely biased and the person writing that stuff has not actually figured out or at least tried to figure out what is the OT writen about.
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      08-20-2007, 10:14 PM   #31
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My friend uabimmer

When I said 'fun' it wasn't meant as 'fun = haha". It was the "fun = funny = ironic". Sorry that I did not state it clearer. It was interesting how the Fundamentalists join up when one states the obvious about the God of Abraham.

I quoted the Bible because it paints God in a very unflattering light without needing any assistance from the likes of moi. I did not quote from that document because I thought that this historical document was the 'truth'.

I do not believe that the Old or New Testaments are true or factual. The Ancient Egyptian records do not speak of Hebew Slaves, Moses, Joseph etc. They should because Moses beat Pharoh's butt and Joseph saved Pharoh's butt (the old story of Pharoh's dream about 7 fat cows followed by 7 skinny ones). The Assyrians and Egyptions fought a lot and neither of them mention going through a land called Israel to fight each other.... They should have noticed the Kingdoms of David and Solomon et. al. Now I am done with the Old Testament. Coming to the New one - there is no independent historical data that talks of one JC. There is lots of data from multiple sources for the likes of Julius Caeser, Augustus, Herod, Nero etc. Nothing about JC. The Romans don't even mention Christians till around 150 AD - I guess there were no Christians in Rome till that time. They do talk about the Jews. They also mention Nero banning the practice of Judaism around 64 AD - great fire in Rome occured then. Nero did not crucify Paul nor Peter after that fire as Christains claim. Nero also did not play the fiddle while Rome burned by the way. The New Testament was written by dudes who never hung out with JC. The first books were written around 70 AD. Nobody hung out with JC because there was no JC.

Now that I am done with the Testaments lets not let that last Abrahamic faith get away. I refer to Islam. Islam believes that JC, Moses, Solomon, David etc. all existed. Since there is no proof of these dudes ever existed then it means that Islam is not based in fact either. I would expect data about Moses in the Egyptian records and I would expect info on JC in the records of local Historians of the time such as Josephus etc. See link:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html

I apologise if I have hurt anyone's feelings. That is not my intent. I am asking questions and all I get in return is that i have a "wretched soul" that I am an "angry man", "a bitter man".... That I will "burn in Hell". Can we get past that threats and get to the point that the God of Abraham is very Human-like in it's emotions. It throws temper tantrums, destroys unborn children, banishes little children (Ismail), drowns everyone including little animals like kitty cats in the great flood and it goes on, and on, and on....
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      08-20-2007, 10:16 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATG View Post
Enfield, you will burn in an imaginary hell, but you will not know it.
Do you think that the Playboy Playmates will be in Hell with me??
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      08-21-2007, 05:32 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP20 View Post
If there was god, there wouldn't be so many innocent people dying from crimes and other unjustified causes, etc (and please don't say any of those "they went to a better place" bullshit).

If there was god, he certainly didn't deserve all the worships and respect - he can't be bothered to give 2 shit to save people, to help people when they truly need it.
http://www.submission.org/test.htm

[29:2-3] "Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?" We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

[3:179] GOD is not to leave the believers as you are, without distinguishing the bad from the good.

[2:214] Do you expect to enter Paradise without being tested like those before you?

[2:216] .. But you may dislike something which is good for you, and you may like something which is bad for you. GOD knows while you do not know.

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.


These a just a handfull of quotes from the Quran. Why dont you read the website. It explains the topic.
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      08-21-2007, 05:34 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by fobunited View Post
If we HAVE to do anything to "win" God's favor or "earn" our way into heaven, then how are we experiencing the freedom in Christ that I believe He won for me?
Could it be possible that Jesus didnt die for us to gain heaven so easily? Could it be possible that we should earn our reward with God?
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      08-21-2007, 05:44 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Matt View Post
Take, for instance, Jews not being allowed to eat pork. This stems from, historically, pork being poorly cooked/kept, causing people to get sick after eating it. In order to preserve health amongst their people, the folks in charge decided "God doesn't want us to eat pork".

I'm not a fan of religion, at all. I hate organized religion. I believe there is a higher power, of which I have no knowledge, and won't deign to tell another culture that "their" god is wrong.
Here are actually the many harms of eating pork:

- Dr Zakir Naik
- Dr Bilal Philips

May I ask, if you believe there is a higher power, why hasnt it revealed itself? I understand that you say you have no knowledge of this power, but what do you think it may be like and say/do? why did it create us? etc.
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      08-21-2007, 10:04 AM   #36
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If we have to earn our reward with God, we would never receive it. Is it possible for a human being to do more deeds than they sin? I believe that is impossible. Jesus said that even our evil thoughts are sin.

Have you ever looked at a woman and lusted? Have you ever been so angry you wanted to kill someone? Have you ever looked at something and coveted it? I certainly have, and I believe more so than I "do" good deeds. And how many of my "good" deeds are not done in a selfish motive anyway? I can't speak for everyone, but I have caught myself wanting to do good deeds to look good in front of others, win peoples' favor, etc.

In the end, you have to ask yourself... What is a good person, really? Is there such a thing? Am I one? Can I honestly say that my good deeds outweigh my sins? Unfortunately, I cannot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Could it be possible that Jesus didnt die for us to gain heaven so easily? Could it be possible that we should earn our reward with God?
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      08-21-2007, 10:26 AM   #37
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Isn't it true that after the 'Great flood' (as if there can ever be anything great about a flood) Noah got sh*t faced and danced butt naked. His son, Ham, saw this nudie show and for this Noah cursed Ham's kid Canaan? What kid of justice is this bull. Why punish the Grandson for Noah getting inebriated and dancing butt naked?? Is this God's justice????

By the way - this justice from God was used to justify Slavery.... Apparently Canaan was black and God made him and his offsprings the servants of Shem

Why make Canaan and his kids servants when Noah got pi$$ed drunk and Ham was the dude who saw him butt naked? Canaan didn't have anything to do with it!

God is unjust....
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      08-21-2007, 10:27 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fobunited
If we have to earn our reward with God, we would never receive it. Is it possible for a human being to do more deeds than they sin? I believe that is impossible. Jesus said that even our evil thoughts are sin.
Firstly, thanks for your reply!

I think it is very possible for people to do more good deeds than bad deeds. Since we are Muslim/Christians we share a similar idea about what acts are sins. I think we can, with God's guidance, train ourselves to be good people and refrain from sin. if you make 1 step towards God, he will make 2 steps to you.

The Holy Prophet (SAW) said: "All children of Adam are sinners. But the best of sinners are those who repent". Therefore, yes I think we can earn our reward with God. I think it is only fair that God understands our short-comings especially since we are weak. Allah says in the Quran "Man was created weak". Can anyone disagree with this? no. Of course not. We are not perfect, this is obvious.

Moreover, even in the Bible, if these really are his words, Jesus has told us parables which basically tell us that if you seek forgiveness then it shall be granted to you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fobunited
Have you ever looked at a woman and lusted? Have you ever been so angry you wanted to kill someone? Have you ever looked at something and coveted it? I certainly have, and I believe more so than I "do" good deeds. And how many of my "good" deeds are not done in a selfish motive anyway? I can't speak for everyone, but I have caught myself wanting to do good deeds to look good in front of others, win peoples' favor, etc.
It is not important that we are sinners. Rather, it is important that one of God's qualities is the ability to forgive. Infact, this is actually one of Allah's names. Al-Ghaffaar, the Forgiver.

Yes, I make many faults. However, I do good deeds too. Allah has made it very possible for us to earn good deeds and he has told us through his beloved Prophets and the Quran how to obtain reward with our one Lord. Also, Allah has told us how to seek forgiveness so that we can earn our reward with him after acknowledging our mistakes and repenting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fobunited
In the end, you have to ask yourself... What is a good person, really? Is there such a thing? Am I one? Can I honestly say that my good deeds outweigh my sins? Unfortunately, I cannot.
This is another thing that comes up in conversation with Christians. However, I usually find ME saying it.

Christians usually say that the thing they love about Christianity is that "their sins are paid for" and that they are "guaranteed reward with God". I understand that it sounds very beautiful, but is it the truth? Such statements only bring out arrogance in us when we know we are guaranteed reward.

I think the main part of the test of life, is that we do not know what is ordained for us. However, Allah has given us free choice to become either a good person or bad person. He has told us what would make us good or bad so that we cannot say "we did not know".

Moreover, I feel that the idea of Jesus paying for us sins to be theologically impossible even if we use the Bible to make our decision. Hmm, maybe we could start a new thread? "Did Jesus die for the sins of the world?"

Again, everything I say is with respect for you and ALL other Christians. Yes, even FloridaBoy despite his ignorance and insults.
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      08-21-2007, 10:38 AM   #39
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Enfield ...
you have stated that you do not believe in the OT or NT but something tells me you havent read either and are getting all your info from those websites you posted earlier... which i read and disagree with entirely...

As for Jesus just becuase you havent (where you searched) found historical evidence doesnt mean He never existed. Why has the world accepted the terms B.C. (before Christ) and A.D. (After Death) as a bench mark to measure time?? i know now they have tried to change it to BCE, but for 2000 years it seemed to be OK that Jesus exhisted.

-BTW Christ is still alive and He is living in my heart, He is knocking on the door of your heart, if you will open it He will come in..
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      08-21-2007, 10:51 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Could it be possible that Jesus didnt die for us to gain heaven so easily? Could it be possible that we should earn our reward with God?
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." --Romans 3:28

We by ourselves are not strong enough to overcome evil but all that have sinned have fallen short.
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      08-21-2007, 10:58 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uabimmer View Post
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." --Romans 3:28

We by ourselves are not strong enough to overcome evil but all that have sinned have fallen short.
Thanks bro. Yes, I agree that we are not srong enough to overcome evil without God's help.

But doest that mean that God has to die for us? I know that you are probably going to quote from Romans again and say that "the wages of sin is death" but could you give more than that please. If possible, please explain why we cant just follow the way of life that God made for us and instructed us though his Books, Prophets & signs for all humanity? Also, why cant God just forgive us of his free-will as the Bible shows in it's teachings?

Perhaps after you reply, you could post in my new thread "Did Jesus die for the sins of the world?":

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79374
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      08-21-2007, 11:17 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Thanks bro. Yes, I agree that we are not srong enough to overcome evil without God's help.
Here is one from the OT:
Jeremiah 2:22 "For though you wash yourself with lye, and use much soap, Yet you iniquity is marked' says the Lord God

If Jesus was a prophet then do think what He taught was the truth?
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      08-21-2007, 11:51 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uabimmer View Post
God doesnt want your money...
when you give to the church:
1. you are helping out this the church's existance
2. you are learning to be more humble and realize(if you believe in God) that everything you have is a blessing from God.

- You will not burn in hell because you didnt give money to a local church...
but those do not accept Jesus Christ as Savior are going to hell.
I sure hope you're Catholic. According to Pope Benedict, those are who are not will never achieve salvation. You had better convert. I can sponsor you if you would like to save your soul.
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      08-21-2007, 11:58 AM   #44
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I repeat what I said in my last post. God is unjust. I am reposting my last post and I will keep doing that till I get an answer to this:
Quote:
Isn't it true that after the 'Great flood' (as if there can ever be anything great about a flood) Noah got sh*t faced and danced butt naked. His son, Ham, saw this nudie show and for this Noah cursed Ham's kid Canaan? What kid of justice is this bull. Why punish the Grandson for Noah getting inebriated and dancing butt naked?? Is this God's justice????

By the way - this justice from God was used to justify Slavery.... Apparently Canaan was black and God made him and his offsprings the servants of Shem

Why make Canaan and his kids servants when Noah got pi$$ed drunk and Ham was the dude who saw him butt naked? Canaan didn't have anything to do with it!

God is unjust....
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