How to learn heel toe?

[apecush]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Actually, even on the track, you should rarely need blipping to 8000RPM.

certainly agree with you, just using 8k as a worst case scenario (i actually have no idea what I generally match to, but i do know that the car won't hesitate to break traction if you don't get the revs high enough)

[HeartMD]

Update:
So I went out this morning and practiced for about an hour. I tried the above methods and it seemed to really help. Basically I had to bring my foot up a bit in order to really break with the ball of my foot just below the digits and with a slight bit of rotation at the ankle joint I was able to maneuver my heal with enough control to hit the throttle. However I did have to practice the technique for about 30 mins before I somewhat got the hang of it.
I eventually tried it a few times with the car moving at about 15-20 mph on an isolated back road and was pretty stoked about it. I will need to practice it much more before I can muster up the cohones and do it in a more "difficult" environment. I plan on learning how to track my car by taking it out to limerock park next season. Thanks for all the very insightful and very helpful comments everyone.

Joe

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by HeartMD

Update:
So I went out this morning and practiced for about an hour. I tried the above methods and it seemed to really help. Basically I had to bring my foot up a bit in order to really break with the ball of my foot just below the digits and with a slight bit of rotation at the ankle joint I was able to maneuver my heal with enough control to hit the throttle. However I did have to practice the technique for about 30 mins before I somewhat got the hang of it.
I eventually tried it a few times with the car moving at about 15-20 mph on an isolated back road and was pretty stoked about it. I will need to practice it much more before I can muster up the cohones and do it in a more "difficult" environment. I plan on learning how to track my car by taking it out to limerock park next season. Thanks for all the very insightful comments and very helpful comments everyone.

Joe

[Car54]

Glad to hear you simplified your approach and are on your way!

[SGMe90]

I watched videos on it as well and tried it last night. Gotta say I need more practice.....and more flexibility

[Parkanzky]

What I found to help when I learned was to think about rolling my ankle starting at the knee. So I'd brake with my knees close together, then push my right knee to the right when I wanted to blip the throttle. For whatever reason, that was much easier for me than simply "rolling my foot over."

[Snig]

Heal-Toe. LOL.

Do you HEEL your patients then?

[jqsmooth]

Good luck OP! I hope you master it one day. I've tried it and still trying to figure out how to heel-toe properly. But since I have no reference point of what a "perfect" heel-toe is, it's damn hard to know if I'm getting it right or just messing up the car. Oh, on a couple of occasions, I had my foot on both the break and the throttle while sitting at a red light. I was like, "what the hell is that noise?". People next to me must think I want to race them or something.

[HeartMD]

Originally Posted by Snig

Heal-Toe. LOL.

Do you HEEL your patients then?

LOL... I didnt even realize that. All I can say is im better with numbers then with words

[Kasé Zomé]

This has been a truly helpful thread. Thanks!

[bigjae1976]

I find heel-toeing on the street is much more difficult. You don't have the brake pedal depressed as far or as hard on the street so you have to reach for the throttle. On the track, the brake pedal is buried in the carpet, it's much easier.

I'd just practice blipping the throttle and downshifting (no brake) since that is the most complicated part. Get that down and then start adding the heel toe part.

[piloto]

On track I think you'll find it much easier, because you'll be braking harder and bliping the throttle to get higher revs. Once you get the hang of it, you'll find yourself doing it everywhere. It's another dimension of fun.

[MysticBlue]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I find heel-toeing on the street is much more difficult. You don't have the brake pedal depressed as far or as hard on the street so you have to reach for the throttle. On the track, the brake pedal is buried in the carpet, it's much easier.

I'd just practice blipping the throttle and downshifting (no brake) since that is the most complicated part. Get that down and then start adding the heel toe part.

I agree with this. I never felt like I could effectively practice this technique on the street. Just can't depress the brake far enough for the amount of time it takes to make it work, not without doing things that are not cool to be doing on public roads.

It's kind of like snow skiing. If you want to learn how to ski on steeper, faster slopes, you just have to do it on steeper faster slopes. You may theoretically know the technique you need to work on, but you just can't do it on a shallow slope because you scrub off your speed so quick that what you are trying to do is no longer relevant or realistic.

I didn't really get it until I spent two days at the M driving school in SC, where I got to do it over and over at speed. After that and a couple of years of track days, I got relatively good at it, (for an amateur). Feels pretty good when you hit it right and put it all together. Then, 4 years ago, I found a nice little trick... DCT.

[dhoggm3]

Fwiw, the motor can be completely off when you practice this. No need to tax that sweet piece of equipment while you get the motions right.

Have fun! It's awesome when you finally start nailing it.

[Car54]

Originally Posted by HeartMD

LOL... I didnt even realize that. All I can say is im better with numbers then with words

Hey...at least we can read your words...if you wrote them by hand ...not a chance.

[Sergeleb ATM]

Originally Posted by HeartMD

Though I have been driving standard transmission cars for about 20 years it wasnt until about a year ago that I figured Id try and learn how to "really drive". So Ive worked a ton on rev matching and that is well n good, but damn for the love of god, I just dont have enough flexibilty in my right ankle to be able to brake and blip the throttle at the same time when trying to heal n toe.
Youtube videos dont help at all.
Can any of the seasoned vets out there throw me some pointers..

Joe

Whether you work the clutch and brake with your left ankle and the gas with your right, or you just leave the right ankle do the braking and throttling, practice makes perfect!!!

[M3PO]

I've been trying to learn on the street also. I plan to track soon (first time ever) and I want to be able to do it. I find that the pedal being hinged at the floor makes it difficult. I also end up mashing the brakes to get a good blip. I think I am just going to have to practice in the garage and learn to do it on the track. I can downshift without breaking pretty well though!

[Purple Derple]

Much easier to go from 4th to 3rd than it is to go from 3rd to 2nd. The motion of the shift is simpler as well as the gear ratios being more friendly. So maybe start with that downshift to learn? I realize 3rd and 4th gears are much faster than 2nd and 3rd, but you don't need to be ripping up the rpms to practice I don't think.

[radiantm3]

The best scenario to practice on the street is when you are making a right turn on a green light. When there's no cars or people around, just brake later and harder than you normally would and rev match before the turn. I do it all the time at certain lights that I turn on daily. Keeps me in practice while I'm not at the track.

[ersin]

I have one thing to add. Because the throttle pedal is hinged on the floor it is much easier to "heel-toe" when your heel is on the floor.

Up until this car, I only had manual transmissions in Japanese cars (MR2, Miata,...) which hinge their throttle pedals from the top. So, I was used to having my heel off of the floor when heel-toeing and had no problem this way. In fact, this was more "left-side, right-side" rather than real "heel-toe".

I had an E46 M3 but that was with the SMG transmission so no heel-toe there. But with the E92 M3 I have a manual and was really struggling to make heel-toe work until I figured out that you really need to keep your heel on the floor at the base of the throttle pedal.

To brake, pivot your right foot over to the brake using your heel as the pivot. You can still leave a big hunk of the outside part of your right foot on the throttle pedal to operate the throttle as you're braking with the ball of your foot.

I hope this helps.


Cheers.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by ersin

I have one thing to add. Because the throttle pedal is hinged on the floor it is much easier to "heel-toe" when your heel is on the floor.

Up until this car, I only had manual transmissions in Japanese cars (MR2, Miata,...) which hinge their throttle pedals from the top. So, I was used to having my heel off of the floor when heel-toeing and had no problem this way. In fact, this was more "left-side, right-side" rather than real "heel-toe".

I had an E46 M3 but that was with the SMG transmission so no heel-toe there. But with the E92 M3 I have a manual and was really struggling to make heel-toe work until I figured out that you really need to keep your heel on the floor at the base of the throttle pedal.

To brake, pivot your right foot over to the brake using your heel as the pivot. You can still leave a big hunk of the outside part of your right foot on the throttle pedal to operate the throttle as you're braking with the ball of your foot.

I hope this helps.


Cheers.

Interesting. I find that it's exactly the opposite (granted I am having trouble learning). I used to have a 350z and having the pedal hinged at the floor made it much easier (for me at least). You have more leverage to actually push the pedal down with your heel so you don't have to roll your ankle much. With the pedal hinged at the bottom, my heel has to be off the floor to push the pedal higher up to get leverage and I have to roll my ankle also.

[TVMA Doc]

Originally Posted by piloto

The pedal placement on this car is not ideal. The throttle pedal is too far aft relative to the brake, so unless you're braking hard (e.g. from hard speed), you're never in the right place to easily blip the throttle with the side of your foot.

I suggest getting a set of ultimate pedals, or even getting just their throttle pedal as it bolts on top of the existing pedal and brings its face closer to the same plane as the brake's. The other thing with this car is that the drivetrain has very low inertia, which is great, but when heel and toeing, requires a little more revs than one might give in another car.

For reference, in my S2000, I heel and toe just fine with the stock pedals, but on the M3, I went with a set of ultimate pedals and it made a huge difference.

I agree. I find it much easier to heel-toe in my S2000. With my M3 M-DCT, they forgot the clutch pedal all together!