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      11-25-2012, 01:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amri215 View Post
Abandoning the car for the misuse of the M badge by BMW seems pretty extreme ..no?

I mean its still a kick ass car..and real enthusiasts know the difference between the fakes and the real thing.
Yes, enthusiasts will know the difference between the true M cars and the diluted M Performance ones. But, surprisingly, BMW doesn't get a basic tenet of branding, and that's people want pay for an exclusive product like the M badge. They're making a short-term play by slapping that badge on everything, thus giving more people than ever the ability to finally buy into that once exclusive club. But by going down this route, with the M badge on every kind of car in BMW's lineup, it'll lose the cache that it once carried over the years and people will need to go elsewhere to get that exclusivity that the M badge once carried.
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      11-25-2012, 02:21 PM   #24
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While the "mystique" of a brand and model have something to do with the purchase (e.g. I would have trouble thinking a Kia is cool...), in the end I'm buying the car. If it drives, looks, and feels the way I like, with the options I want - it's great.

Maybe I would feel differently if I had more of a history with M, but this is unlikely to be my last M3 (4...).

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      11-25-2012, 02:49 PM   #25
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I didn't buy my car because of the badge. So whatever they do with ///M stickers or whether they call the next car the ///M4, I don't care. As someone said, as long as they are the best to drive, I'm not going to ignore it.

On the flip side, if the badge/marketing is in your top 3 category over handling, fun to drive, looks ect, then I don't think you understand the point of that car either.
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      11-25-2012, 02:55 PM   #26
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Well, some would say BMW is losing the plot of what an ///M car means (Lightweight, no frills, etc...).

But what do I know, despite all the marketing and changes in the cars, I just bought a 2013...
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      11-25-2012, 03:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer6 View Post
In the end you build what the customer will buy, and if you don't you will be behind. Hell Ferrari makes a four door who would have guessed that. AMG has been watered down for years, and it's still not a good track car. Good luck to find a brand that will not adapt to the changing market place. M is still the performance Audi and Mercedes is still chasing which says something.
Sorry, but that is incorrect. There is no 4-door Ferrari in the current model range, nor has there ever been, with the exception of a few one-off 456 sedans produced exclusively for the Sultan of Brunei in the 90's.

Perhaps you were thinking of the Ferrari FF? It has seating for 4...
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      11-25-2012, 03:06 PM   #28
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wow, you won't even give a potentially incredible car a chance in a few years just because it has a letter in common with a "lesser" bmw.
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      11-25-2012, 03:14 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
But, surprisingly, BMW doesn't get a basic tenet of branding, and that's people want pay for an exclusive product like the M badge. They're making a short-term play by slapping that badge on everything, thus giving more people than ever the ability to finally buy into that once exclusive club. But by going down this route, with the M badge on every kind of car in BMW's lineup, it'll lose the cache that it once carried over the years and people will need to go elsewhere to get that exclusivity that the M badge once carried.
Maybe . . . While there have been many failures of brand dilution, there have also been a few successes. Plus, many of the failures of brand dilution were accompanied by product dilution. It _may_ be the case that, as long as BMW keeps the M car designs themselves "pure" (in whatever sense you care to consider), they will be able to hold on to their high-end customers.

My guess is that, given the current state of the world economy, all of the luxury German brands will continue down this path. What would one do if all of BMW/MB/Audi/Porsche do the same thing? Fall back on Kia, who is not diluting their brand? Probably better to just judge each design on its merits . . .
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      11-25-2012, 03:38 PM   #30
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Porsche guys complain the 911 has become too soft.
BMW M guys are complaining the cars are becoming too luxurious.
Where does it all end.
In the wallet, of course.

For years people scoffed at Lexus for being too luxurious and soft.
Now Lexus are becoming better drivers and the Germains are becoming more luxurious.

As for me, I enjoy driving sporty type cars with low profile tires that hug the pavement...but I want the ride to be smooth in case it is an extended drive.

So I'm not bothered by smoother riding cars as long as they respond when it's time. Thats the trick, building a car that satisfies everyone. Hard to do.
Manufacturers don't make a lot of money building specialty cars that do one thing well and thats it. At least not on that model.

The Panamera turbo comes to mind. It fast, luxurious, handles well for a car its size and can seat four. Thats a money maker. Thats what everyone wants to copy.
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      11-25-2012, 03:45 PM   #31
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One thing I know for sure is my next car will be a Porsche.
Either Carrera 4S or a Turbo (if I can afford one)

I love M3's (you can tell because I currently have 2, and I'm a single man in 20s),
but I've always been fascinated by Porsches!
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      11-25-2012, 04:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice350 View Post
Porsche guys complain the 911 has become too soft.
BMW M guys are complaining the cars are becoming too luxurious.
Where does it all end.
In the wallet, of course.

For years people scoffed at Lexus for being too luxurious and soft.
Now Lexus are becoming better drivers and the Germains are becoming more luxurious.

As for me, I enjoy driving sporty type cars with low profile tires that hug the pavement...but I want the ride to be smooth in case it is an extended drive.

So I'm not bothered by smoother riding cars as long as they respond when it's time. Thats the trick, building a car that satisfies everyone. Hard to do.
Manufacturers don't make a lot of money building specialty cars that do one thing well and thats it. At least not on that model.

The Panamera turbo comes to mind. It fast, luxurious, handles well for a car its size and can seat four. Thats a money maker. Thats what everyone wants to copy.
You're right, the world's on its ass. Up is down, left is right and BMW is making luxury vehicles that cater to the masses. Even the M's. Business is business.
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      11-25-2012, 04:52 PM   #33
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when honda made the nsx,they wanted to make a great car that made a statement.they were better than ferraris when they came out,and had huge development costs,especially for the groundbreaking aluminum suspension.i don't think they made any money on them ,even though a new one was $82,500 on 1995 when mine was made.they created an excitement about the brand,and gave the best people in the company a job to aspire to.

this is what bmw is in danger of losing if they weaken the m brand.they may make more money in the short run within the m division by producing cars with less parts that are unique to the m,but may lose the excitement about all bmw's that having a special model creates.it also becomes a less attractive place for the best engineers and designers.they may also lose the excitement of younger car enthusiasts who buy an entry-level bmw with the goal of getting an m someday.i know the mystique and performance of the m3 were the things that drew me to bmw in the first place. all the time and money that bmw put into the e9x m3 to take it to a higher level of performance,and the fact that it's a lot more than just a trim package makes it very satisfying to me,beyond mere performance numbers,which don't tell the whole story.
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      11-25-2012, 05:16 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
Yes, enthusiasts will know the difference between the true M cars and the diluted M Performance ones. But, surprisingly, BMW doesn't get a basic tenet of branding, and that's people want pay for an exclusive product like the M badge. They're making a short-term play by slapping that badge on everything, thus giving more people than ever the ability to finally buy into that once exclusive club. But by going down this route, with the M badge on every kind of car in BMW's lineup, it'll lose the cache that it once carried over the years and people will need to go elsewhere to get that exclusivity that the M badge once carried.
I undertstand all this but its what's under the M badge that counts.
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      11-25-2012, 05:58 PM   #35
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Regarding the M3, I personally like the vision of the M Division so far. I like that the M Division has offered more performance and luxury with each generation of M3. I'm sure the next M3 will be a better performing car with at least the same comfort level if not better than the e9x. Ultimately, there'll only be one car labeled M3. I don't care about the other M packaging, none of those cars will be on the same level as the true M car...just my opinion.
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      11-25-2012, 06:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
I didn't buy my car because of the badge. So whatever they do with ///M stickers or whether they call the next car the ///M4, I don't care. As someone said, as long as they are the best to drive, I'm not going to ignore it.

On the flip side, if the badge/marketing is in your top 3 category over handling, fun to drive, looks ect, then I don't think you understand the point of that car either.

This.
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      11-25-2012, 06:24 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbiedawg View Post
when honda made the nsx,they wanted to make a great car that made a statement.they were better than ferraris when they came out,and had huge development costs,especially for the groundbreaking aluminum suspension.i don't think they made any money on them ,even though a new one was $82,500 on 1995 when mine was made.they created an excitement about the brand,and gave the best people in the company a job to aspire to.

this is what bmw is in danger of losing if they weaken the m brand.they may make more money in the short run within the m division by producing cars with less parts that are unique to the m,but may lose the excitement about all bmw's that having a special model creates.it also becomes a less attractive place for the best engineers and designers.they may also lose the excitement of younger car enthusiasts who buy an entry-level bmw with the goal of getting an m someday.i know the mystique and performance of the m3 were the things that drew me to bmw in the first place. all the time and money that bmw put into the e9x m3 to take it to a higher level of performance,and the fact that it's a lot more than just a trim package makes it very satisfying to me,beyond mere performance numbers,which don't tell the whole story.
As a former multiple NSX owner, I can attest to the greatness of the cars, but Honda gave up early on any continued technical development & it stalled in the marketplace in the late 90's. My final NSX was a 2005 - last year of production. BTW, MSRP was $89,765 in 2005....

I kept fooling myself that it was still the greatest car out there & hung on to it till 2010. Was a great driver, but also had a cassette player in the dash. Honda threw in the towel on the NSX to concentrate on the masses & I needed a change.

The M3 is a huge step forward for me in overall performance + technology.

NSX...Good cars, just didn't keep up. 2005 Below

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      11-25-2012, 06:33 PM   #38
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Not agree, Porsche has turbo engines and Cayene diesel - but stil is a Porsche, why M-cars cannot be turbo charged or diesel ? One will buy M135, other m3/4/5/X6M
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      11-25-2012, 06:35 PM   #39
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I will wait and see what the next M3/4 is like before making statements like "This is my last M car"

I usually go out there and buy whatever I like and have zero brand loyalty. If I like the next M4 I will get one.... Besides the unknown M4, I have my eyes on a 997.2 C4S or a 2009 TT.... With a P car, I am still trying to get over the fact of paying $80K+ on a "used car"
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      11-25-2012, 06:45 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
Yes, enthusiasts will know the difference between the true M cars and the diluted M Performance ones. But, surprisingly, BMW doesn't get a basic tenet of branding, and that's people want pay for an exclusive product like the M badge. They're making a short-term play by slapping that badge on everything, thus giving more people than ever the ability to finally buy into that once exclusive club. But by going down this route, with the M badge on every kind of car in BMW's lineup, it'll lose the cache that it once carried over the years and people will need to go elsewhere to get that exclusivity that the M badge once carried.
+1 ....To some folks, the upcoming changes wont make a difference. There have always been "///M branded" products in the past i.e. ///M Technic, ///M Sport etc.... but the core Motorsport products remained true to its origins. BMW Car magazine is chronicling the history of ///M in A 4 part series - and pretty much covers everything "///M" A-Z, a worthwhile read to those of us who appreciate the lineage of ///M
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      11-26-2012, 12:48 AM   #41
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I think all are missing the point. BMW needs to continue to sell more cars to avoid being bought out and becoming a part of an automotive group. The figure is about 2 million cars per year. What's worse? Becoming a part of the Volkswagen Auto Group...aka the VAG?

So what if they need to stretch the M badge a bit. Unless you haven't owned a non-m car over that past decade, you will notice many non-m's have ///M badges in different places. Wheels, shifters, door sills?

I could say all of us E9X owners have poseur cars and don't have a true M car. IIRC, GmbH started making race cars and only sold cars through retail dealers to meet homologation requirements. 3.0CSL, M1, E12 M5, and the E30 M3?

So get off your M badge high horse, sell your fake E9x M3 and then go buy a homologated race car, a REAL M car. Not your 414hp luxo-barge.
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      11-26-2012, 12:55 AM   #42
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Def moving onto Porsche next, after owning both e46 and e92 M, I believe it's about the time..
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      11-26-2012, 02:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amri215 View Post
I undertstand all this but its what's under the M badge that counts.
In a couple of years, there will be a run-of-the-mill engine paired up to an automatic transmission connected to a drivetrain that lacks even a limited slip differential under most M badges.
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      11-26-2012, 02:15 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
So get off your M badge high horse, sell your fake E9x M3 and then go buy a homologated race car, a REAL M car. Not your 414hp luxo-barge.
We'd be happy to, but BMW doesn't make those kind of cars anymore.
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