Need advice on modding for tracking

[1fastdoc]

I'm new to my M3 and have the same q's as the OP. This thread and the one linked regarding r-compound tires have been very helpful.

I have a further question on brakes though. My car is 99.9% daily driver. I could see how stainless lines could be beneficial and not be a problem on the street but is high temp brake fluid strictly a track thing? Also, do those running track pads really change back and forth when getting back on the street?

I've been on a track once at NCCAR in a friend's M3, which I put off the track bass-ackwards and sideways. I plan on the M school in April and after that, tracks as often as possible. However, given my job and location, hitting the track may only be once or twice/year.

Also, where is the best place to have SS lines put on, dealer or an independent shop?

[james33]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Has anyone been to BMW's M school and another racing/driving school that could offer perspective?

Most other HPDE and schools I've been to have you use your own car. The SCCA and PCA in our region hold these pretty regularly. Plus, it's a crap shoot as to the quality of instructor you may get. Some are awesome, some OK, and some not so good. I would also say that your time on the track is less too as you are usually split up into 2-3 run groups. When you aren't running you are sitting around watching.

M School uses their cars on a custom made course that includes elevation changes, a polished concrete wet skid pad, all sorts of corners and curves, plus the best instructors. These guys are all pros and were very comfortable to be around - not intimidating or critical, just good tips and comments that helped you improve constantly. Plus, the course is so huge that you spend maybe an hour in class in the morning then it's all car time. You swap from the M3 to the M5 to the 1M (and now the M6 which will replace the 1M). Their tires, their brakes, their car - you crash, no problem. No insurance issues. It was a fantastic experience - they provide all food, lodging, transportation from hotel to school, plus you get a custom painted helmet to keep, shirts, caps, and other swag. 1st class experience all the way!!!

[rhouck]

I disagree with waiting on tires because tracking destroys your stock tires. Pickup a cheap set of wheels (e.g., Apex) and throw on what will be your "track" tires. That does NOT mean R-comps, or even the best street tires (e..g, RS-3, etc) but can still be NT-05s or whatever else. Tracking on cheaper tires will often lead to chunking and excessive wear. I would also track on 18s as opposed to 19s as the tires are cheaper (as well as the wheels).

As for the Mini... I would not learn to track on a FWD car. Not that they are not capable, but there are fundamental differences to the driving style vs RWD. But I'm also a fan of Purple Derple's advice re getting a cheap track car (if you have the space for another car).

Originally Posted by 1fastdoc

I have a further question on brakes though. My car is 99.9% daily driver. I could see how stainless lines could be beneficial and not be a problem on the street but is high temp brake fluid strictly a track thing? Also, do those running track pads really change back and forth when getting back on the street?

SS lines are not necessary. And especially if you are going to be tracking irregularly (1-2 times/year is irregular), it is definitely not needed.

I don't change track pads back and forth because it is annoying and not needed. If you are going to only go 1-2 times/year, then a dual purpose pad will be fine (e.g., Stoptech Street Performance) to run all the time.

[Purple Derple]

Originally Posted by james33

Most other HPDE and schools I've been to have you use your own car. The SCCA and PCA in our region hold these pretty regularly. Plus, it's a crap shoot as to the quality of instructor you may get. Some are awesome, some OK, and some not so good. I would also say that your time on the track is less too as you are usually split up into 2-3 run groups. When you aren't running you are sitting around watching.

M School uses their cars on a custom made course that includes elevation changes, a polished concrete wet skid pad, all sorts of corners and curves, plus the best instructors. These guys are all pros and were very comfortable to be around - not intimidating or critical, just good tips and comments that helped you improve constantly. Plus, the course is so huge that you spend maybe an hour in class in the morning then it's all car time. You swap from the M3 to the M5 to the 1M (and now the M6 which will replace the 1M). Their tires, their brakes, their car - you crash, no problem. No insurance issues. It was a fantastic experience - they provide all food, lodging, transportation from hotel to school, plus you get a custom painted helmet to keep, shirts, caps, and other swag. 1st class experience all the way!!!

Ah I meant a racing/driving school. Not DE. DE is a joke.

[Blotman]

Originally Posted by 1fastdoc

I have a further question on brakes though. My car is 99.9% daily driver. I could see how stainless lines could be beneficial and not be a problem on the street but is high temp brake fluid strictly a track thing?

The fluid shouldn't affect your daily driving. I leave mine in all the time. I'd almost recommend running on stock fluid for now until you feel your pedal getting mushy after some heavy use. Get an actual handle for what your car "needs".

[CanAutM3]

I say go with your M3 at the track, it really is the best place to enjoy and appreciate the capabilities of the car. IMO, no need to start with a beater or your Mini.

As many others have said, as a newb, just keep the car stock. You probably won't even need to upgrade the brakes for the first few events. Most definitely stick with street tires for the first few seasons.

If you do get hooked to the sport, you can start looking at mods that will improve safety like better track brake pads.

I am a firm believer that the best component worth modding is the one between the seat and the steering wheel .

And most importantly, HAVE FUN

[sleepless]

Originally Posted by rhouck

I disagree with waiting on tires because tracking destroys your stock tires.

I agree in general, but, I don't think a novice is going to destroy the tires...

The only thing a novice needs to do is make sure the car is properly serviced.

After a few track days, start thinking about track pads and high temp brake fluid.

After the first set of tires are gone, then consider a second set of wheels that offer a square setup so you can rotate the tires (still street tires).

I highly recommend against any r-compound tires unless you want to start down a very expensive slippery slope of upgrades. For example, the stock brakes are fine with track pads and some cooling ducts as long as you stick with street tires (upper end like AD-08s). Once you put on R-compounds, you'll likely overdrive the stock brakes and you'll start to feel like the car moves around too much on the suspension. You'll conclude you need big brakes and coil overs, sway bars. Then, you'll think the car needs more power, on goes the supercharger. Then you'll move to Hoosiers and need a pickup and trailer... Ask me how I know

I drive in the advanced groups, normally with a dedicated track car, but this year I drove 20 days with my E90 M3 family car with only these mods (track car, a Palatov D2, is being built and will be ready in the Spring so M3 will be back to DD duties):

- Camber plates (-2.2)
- Pagid Yellow pads
- Brembo brake fluid
- Cantrell Cooling ducts
- Apex 18" wheels with a square tire setup (265s) using RE11, AD08 and PSS tires

And I had a blast The E9X M3 is an extremely capable track weapon in mostly stock trim.

Save the money for gas, tires, pads and driving schools Bondurant's 4-day is excellent for novice to intermediate drivers. I'm sure Skip Barber and Russell Racing are also superb schools if you can't do the M School.

Have fun!

Pete

[aus]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Has anyone been to BMW's M school and another racing/driving school that could offer perspective?

I did a one day /M event when they offered it out at Fontana, and it was ok. We didn't have an instructor in car so I didn't get much learning. The CCA has incar instruction, which is really helpful when you're starting out. It's the safest organization out there. Once you get faster, you may not like it but its a perfect way to start.

Originally Posted by 1fastdoc

I'm new to my M3 and have the same q's as the OP. This thread and the one linked regarding r-compound tires have been very helpful.

I have a further question on brakes though. My car is 99.9% daily driver. I could see how stainless lines could be beneficial and not be a problem on the street but is high temp brake fluid strictly a track thing? Also, do those running track pads really change back and forth when getting back on the street?

I've been on a track once at NCCAR in a friend's M3, which I put off the track bass-ackwards and sideways. I plan on the M school in April and after that, tracks as often as possible. However, given my job and location, hitting the track may only be once or twice/year.

Also, where is the best place to have SS lines put on, dealer or an independent shop?

Another tip for OP. KEEP THE DAMN TRACTION CONTROL ON!!!

.

[aus]

Originally Posted by sleepless

I agree in general, but, I don't think a novice is going to destroy the tires...

The only thing a novice needs to do is make sure the car is properly serviced.

After a few track days, start thinking about track pads and high temp brake fluid.

After the first set of tires are gone, then consider a second set of wheels that offer a square setup so you can rotate the tires (still street tires).

I highly recommend against any r-compound tires unless you want to start down a very expensive slippery slope of upgrades. For example, the stock brakes are fine with track pads and some cooling ducts as long as you stick with street tires (upper end like AD-08s). Once you put on R-compounds, you'll likely overdrive the stock brakes and you'll start to feel like the car moves around too much on the suspension. You'll conclude you need big brakes and coil overs, sway bars. Then, you'll think the car needs more power, on goes the supercharger. Then you'll move to Hoosiers and need a pickup and trailer... Ask me how I know

I drive in the advanced groups, normally with a dedicated track car, but this year I drove 20 days with my E90 M3 family car with only these mods (track car, a Palatov D2, is being built and will be ready in the Spring so M3 will be back to DD duties):

- Camber plates (-2.2)
- Pagid Yellow pads
- Brembo brake fluid
- Cantrell Cooling ducts
- Apex 18" wheels with a square tire setup (265s) using RE11, AD08 and PSS tires

And I had a blast The E9X M3 is an extremely capable track weapon in mostly stock trim.

Save the money for gas, tires, pads and driving schools Bondurant's 4-day is excellent for novice to intermediate drivers. I'm sure Skip Barber and Russell Racing are also superb schools if you can't do the M School.

Have fun!

Pete

How would you compare the three tires you used in overall grip, break away tendency, wear and wet grip if you had a chance to drive in the wet?
Thanks.

[sleepless]

Originally Posted by aus

How would you compare the three tires you used in overall grip, break away tendency, wear and wet grip if you had a chance to drive in the wet?
Thanks.

I'll post a separate topic tomorrow .

[VMcV3y]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Please don't be advising r-compounds to an obvious rookie this is dangerous and bad advice. I don't mean to call anyone out I just think we need to be mindful of the ability of the drivers we are giving advice to. It is in their best interest that new drivers don't leap to r-compound tires otherwise this could happen http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694316

Anyways, HPDE is not about lap times and chasing speed through car modifications. It is about chasing speed through better driving. Street tires will make you a better driver before r-comps do. Street tires allow for higher slip angles, more cushion, more progressive break away, more car control to play with, limit at safer speeds. R-comps reward a slightly different driving style that, in my opinion, isn't as fun!, but drivers education should be done on street tires in slow cars.

Purple Derple:
Uh, if you read what was written to me as a question "Any idea what tires you're looking at? You should stick to street tires until you max them out before R-compound." Then I responded with what I am thinking about doing. I did not offer that as advice to anyone, but what I am thinking of. In an earlier post, I DID provide advice that one should drive stock for awhile before changing anything. (So you are calling me out, but without accuracy.)

- V

[Autobahn335i]

I recommend getting a set of track wheels+tires (18's preferably) to start. R-compounds will offer more grip and stay driveable for a longer period. Street tires will rapidly decrease performance on cornery tracks, as they get very greasy when hot.

You'll also feel way more comfortable knowing that you'll still have your street tires for "the day after", if you were to go through your set at the track.

Next is race brake fluid and better brake pads.

Then I would look into suspension: camber plates are a must, coilovers eventually.

That should set you up well, until you get more experienced at the track.

[jonasaurus]

1. Go to the track stock and don't go nuts on the stock brakes
2. Potentially have an instructor sit in a few laps to provide tips
2. Upgrade pads
3. Tyres that provide a balance between track and street (on the assumption you are not going to be having dedicated track wheels and you are not going to the track every weekend etc)

If you are going to go beyond the occasional dabble at the track and as you become a more accomplished driver then it may be a case for bigger upgrades!

[Purple Derple]

Originally Posted by VMcV3y

Purple Derple:
Uh, if you read what was written to me as a question "Any idea what tires you're looking at? You should stick to street tires until you max them out before R-compound." Then I responded with what I am thinking about doing. I did not offer that as advice to anyone, but what I am thinking of. In an earlier post, I DID provide advice that one should drive stock for awhile before changing anything. (So you are calling me out, but without accuracy.)

- V

It was meant for anyone giving advice to you too. BFG r1s? Yokohama a048s? I don't think you ought to be on those after three track days. I also don't think they should ever go on an e93.


This is a general response to the forum:

Everyone on this forum gets excited about gear and stuff to buy for the track, but they also forget that none of that stuff is going to make you a fast driver, it is only going to make your car faster. What? Are they going to win HPDE? The more go fast stuff you put on your car, the more you disguise the learning. The faster your car goes without the driver getting faster, the more in over your head you get.

That's why I initially said it should all be done in a slow car. No one is ever out driving their car at HPDE and saying 'well I need new shocks so I can get more rear rebound because I don't like the way the back moves under braking.' before upgrading their suspension. Everyone wants to make their car fast and change the car instead of changing the driver. Look, we all are driving m3s in here, we all like to spend money on things, I get it, we're all material girls. We all like to get our new piece of gear and talk about it and show it off. We also like that little ego boost when we've passed more cars than passed us in a session. But that isn't driving fast. That's just putting your foot down harder than the other guy. It's just having more go fast parts than the other guy. They don't even teach speed in HPDE, they just teach safety.

"What's the point of this rant dude?" My point is, don't be so eager to make your car fast. Don't be so eager to spend money on speed gear. Do the smart things, not the popular things. You won't become a better driver by making your car faster, you will just be out the money you spent. I think it is smart to get an extra set of cheap wheels and tires for the track to save your street tires. I think it is not smart to make those extra tires r-compound even DOT rated, but it certainly is popular. If the point of going to the track is to be a better driver, then make the car as difficult as possible to go fast in and then you'll have to work to find the speed and then you'll become a better driver. What if we do the opposite. What if we make the car so good that it is effortless to go fast in? I think the M3 is already easy to go fast in from the factory. It doesn't lend itself to making us better drivers though unfortunately. So with that in mind, I think the entire thread is misguided starting with the title. But this is all just imo, naturally.

[Purple Derple]

Originally Posted by Autobahn335i

I recommend getting a set of track wheels+tires (18's preferably) to start. R-compounds will offer more grip and stay driveable for a longer period. Street tires will rapidly decrease performance on cornery tracks, as they get very greasy when hot.

You'll also feel way more comfortable knowing that you'll still have your street tires for "the day after", if you were to go through your set at the track.

Next is race brake fluid and better brake pads.

Then I would look into suspension: camber plates are a must, coilovers eventually.

That should set you up well, until you get more experienced at the track.

Yes street tires will burn up before r-comps, and they will come back faster than r-comps too. But don't you think it is a useful skill to learn, to look after the tires, on a tire where it happens more easily and is more easily felt and controlled?

Am I wrong about this thread? Is the focus here about learning the most or is it about the ultimate HPDE speed setup?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by 1fastdoc

I'm new to my M3 and have the same q's as the OP. This thread and the one linked regarding r-compound tires have been very helpful.

I have a further question on brakes though. My car is 99.9% daily driver. I could see how stainless lines could be beneficial and not be a problem on the street but is high temp brake fluid strictly a track thing? Also, do those running track pads really change back and forth when getting back on the street?

I've been on a track once at NCCAR in a friend's M3, which I put off the track bass-ackwards and sideways. I plan on the M school in April and after that, tracks as often as possible. However, given my job and location, hitting the track may only be once or twice/year.

Also, where is the best place to have SS lines put on, dealer or an independent shop?

I have been tracknig my E92 for four and a half seasons at the rate of 15+ days per season. I am running an practcally stock brake setup (rotors, lines, calipers, fluid, no cooling ducts) except for track performance pads with no issues. Never lost brakes or suffered significant fade.

The stock brake system (pads included) with street tires should be able to manage a novice driver without problems .

IMO, SS lines are really not required and are a waste of money

Upgrading the brake fluid will definetly add a layer of safety without detrimental impact on the DD

Track pads are a compromise. For better track performance you need to live with sqealing and maybe rattling sounds on the DD if you do not swap your pads every time . Up to you.

But as you start to gain more speed, I would definitely recommend upgrading pads .

Naturally it all depends on the track layout, but in general, the M3 drivers that have issues with the brakes are the intermediate to advanced drivers that are starting to haul serious speed but have a tendency to overbrake or do not fully manage their brakes. Or at the other extreme, the pros/semi pros that are looking for that last bit of performance edge.

[S65NAPWR]

I agree you should keep the car stock until you know you will be going to the track often enough to justify proper track mods (10+ a year or more). If you've made that decision, then the basic items to get would be:

-Racing Brake Fluid
*ATE Super Blue works for me. You won't need it first couple times out, but once speed start to increase, better safe than sorry

-Racing Brake Pads
*Performance Friction 08s - Endurance Compound
*Don't screw around with stock pads at the track, they will turn into dust quickly at your level since you'll be using them often. Yes, it's true, instructors drive on them, but don't be fooled you can too without some level of consequence / risk.

-Camber Plates
*Negative camber will save your tires from wearing too quickly and help you a tad on the turns. Might be optional at the novice level though

-18 inch Track Wheels and Tires
*Keeps you from changing out costly 19 inch tires regularly. Also, R-comps come more readily in these sizes. 18x10 APEX EC7 Rims and NT-01 Tires should work well.

-Clear Bra
*Keeps the car from getting dinged too much from track debris or if you don't care it's optional. You could also just use painter's tape, but it gets old putting that crap on every time.

-Equipment?
*Check out Harbor Freight Tools. Get a jack, impact fun, torque wrench, etc. so you can check your own car out and rotate tires for even wear. I guess you could just borrow this stuff on the track, but if you have the means to get it yourself - it's worth it.

-Others
*Supercharger is unnecessary and only will aid in burning up consumables (pads, tires, etc.) at a much quicker rate, even if you're a great driver. You're simply going faster and it takes more to slow you down or take turns. Also, it's another thing that gets heat soaked or can simply go wrong at the track - more hassle. I can't tell you how many serpetine belts I've helped change for my supercharger buddies...

*Suspension - coilovers would be ideal and will be a great add-on later. The truth is the stock M3 suspension is very capable. If you're serious about the track, try to avoid springs or a sleeve kit. They aren't horrible, but if you're going through the motions of a suspension upgrade, do it right the first time and get coils.

Good luck at the track and get yourself some track insurance. You may be a good driver, but others not so much Watch out.

If you need any more advice before going to the track, feel free to PM.

[Autobahn335i]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

Yes street tires will burn up before r-comps, and they will come back faster than r-comps too. But don't you think it is a useful skill to learn, to look after the tires, on a tire where it happens more easily and is more easily felt and controlled?

Am I wrong about this thread? Is the focus here about learning the most or is it about the ultimate HPDE speed setup?

I agree but my point was that street tires may heat up and get greasy so quickly that it spoils the learning process and the overall experience. On some tracks, street tires may hold up longer than on others though.

And a beginner won't/shouldn't drive r-comps to the limit. However the extra grip margin may come in handy if a corner was underestimated.

[Purple Derple]

Originally Posted by Autobahn335i

And a beginner won't/shouldn't drive r-comps to the limit. However the extra grip margin may come in handy if a corner was underestimated.

I dont think you're learning if you aren't on the limit. This is why I think street tires are better for learning because the limit is lower and more progressive. If you're driving with grip margin you're just driving and not performance driving IMO.

[Autobahn335i]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

I dont think you're learning if you aren't on the limit. This is why I think street tires are better for learning because the limit is lower and more progressive. If you're driving with grip margin you're just driving and not performance driving IMO.

Not trying to argue, but I don't think ANY beginner will drive the limit of a car like the M3

[Purple Derple]

Originally Posted by Autobahn335i

Not trying to argue, but I don't think ANY beginner will drive the limit of a car like the M3

I'm with you there. Just talking about the ideal world. Man I'm full right now.

[VMcV3y]

Originally Posted by Purple Derple

It was meant for anyone giving advice to you too. BFG r1s? Yokohama a048s? I don't think you ought to be on those after three track days. I also don't think they should ever go on an e93.


This is a general response to the forum:

Everyone on this forum gets excited about gear and stuff to buy for the track, but they also forget that none of that stuff is going to make you a fast driver, it is only going to make your car faster. What? Are they going to win HPDE? The more go fast stuff you put on your car, the more you disguise the learning. The faster your car goes without the driver getting faster, the more in over your head you get.

That's why I initially said it should all be done in a slow car. No one is ever out driving their car at HPDE and saying 'well I need new shocks so I can get more rear rebound because I don't like the way the back moves under braking.' before upgrading their suspension. Everyone wants to make their car fast and change the car instead of changing the driver. Look, we all are driving m3s in here, we all like to spend money on things, I get it, we're all material girls. We all like to get our new piece of gear and talk about it and show it off. We also like that little ego boost when we've passed more cars than passed us in a session. But that isn't driving fast. That's just putting your foot down harder than the other guy. It's just having more go fast parts than the other guy. They don't even teach speed in HPDE, they just teach safety.

"What's the point of this rant dude?" My point is, don't be so eager to make your car fast. Don't be so eager to spend money on speed gear. Do the smart things, not the popular things. You won't become a better driver by making your car faster, you will just be out the money you spent. I think it is smart to get an extra set of cheap wheels and tires for the track to save your street tires. I think it is not smart to make those extra tires r-compound even DOT rated, but it certainly is popular. If the point of going to the track is to be a better driver, then make the car as difficult as possible to go fast in and then you'll have to work to find the speed and then you'll become a better driver. What if we do the opposite. What if we make the car so good that it is effortless to go fast in? I think the M3 is already easy to go fast in from the factory. It doesn't lend itself to making us better drivers though unfortunately. So with that in mind, I think the entire thread is misguided starting with the title. But this is all just imo, naturally.

Well...okay, it's an opinion. I have to say, though, that the not "ever go on an E93" is off the mark. It's like the person that keeps writing that E93's are an "afterthought" which is totally bull. If I want my E93 to perform better, who cares what model it is? (At the last track day, with a totally stock E93, I was getting better times than several E90's and E92's, and other makes of cars...not withstanding the variances in driver capabilities.) I have a semi-racing background with motorcycles, and some of that is transferable to cars.

But one of the main reasons I'm looking at those tires I mentioned earlier is that at under 19,000 miles, I have destroyed four Michelin PS2's that came with my car, and that's just three track days. I need to replace them. TireRack.com has the fronts for $295 ea, and rears for $371. Whereas a set of track-specific BFGoodrich q-Force R1's are $177 each. I'll save at least $624 going to the BFGoodrich's...that will only be used at the track. I have a 4-set of 19"s that I've put on my car for daily use.

I'll certainly post a follow-up next season on what kind of difference there is on the track. Even if it makes zero lap-time difference, it will make a difference in my wallet.


Disclaimer: to any new drivers or rookies considering what tires to place on your car, please note that I am not a professional, highly-experienced M3 driver as many on this forum are. It's only my lowly opinion. Please don't crash your car with R-compound tires and then file a lawsuit against me, or the forum.




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