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      11-07-2012, 10:18 AM   #45
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Nice post.

I recently read a comparison article in C&D or Motor Trend (don't recall) between the M3, RS5, C63, and Cayman.

I'm paraphrasing, but the article identified these vehicles as being in the performance for dollar sweet spot. Spend any less and you'll get less of a car, spend more and you'll face diminishing returns on your money. Sums up my feelings on the M3 perfectly.

I've been fortunate enough to experience some of the world's best cars on track, but most often I'm with an old friend who drives a 130k mile E36 M3, and my brother with an R8 V10.

The R8 is an incredible machine, but with every experience I don't emerge green with envy. On the flipside, the old E36 M3 has so much god damn charm it's ridiculous. It feels light, poised, balanced, the engine is still sweet.

Point is, we all have an equally good time. If you're talking about the joy of driving, "pure driving" as Ayrton said, then I don't find supercars to be markedly more enjoyable than M3s or similar in any driving environment.

Plus, the M3 is superior to most supercars in the majority of driving circumstances. Some (emphasis on some) supercars tip the scale in their favor on a dynamic/performance basis, but the gap is probably not as significant from the driver's seat as most would imagine (or as the price disparity would indicate). And that gap is not enough to negate all of the other advantages offered by the M3. Money being no object, I can honestly say that from a driver's standpoint choosing the M3 over a number of exotics makes perfect sense.

Supercars certainly have their appeal, but I think most who fantasize and posit them as an altogether different and superior driving experience are mistaken.

DISCLAIMER: I have not driven a 458 Italia
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      11-07-2012, 02:46 PM   #46
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maybe an M3, overall, is as good as it gets??


No, it's not.
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      11-07-2012, 03:35 PM   #47
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OP, Have any of you actually owned a Ferrari, Lambo, or anything that is a one off platform supercar for that matter? That is an entirely different ball park. I partly agree and partly disagree.

Op, I can see where you are coming from, but I have to laugh inside after owning a Carrera GT, Ford GT, 458, GT3, M6, a 360 CS and a few e92 M3's. Some people want exotic sports cars and some are happy with something in the middle the does everything. The only thing I could possibly agree on is driving the Carrera GT. I literally got so tired of every stop light and being constant attention. If I had the roof off the car or even the windows down someone would ask "what car is that?" "How much did you pay for it?" Constant stares and too much attention. I got the windows tinted, and I almost hated to take it out because of every valet lusting to drive it. I would worry at dinner. It drove me nuts.

Even in the GT-R I get that. It will get annoying time and time again. I think that is why the M5 and AMG model cars really appeal to me now. However, if I look back on it, those were the BEST cars I have ever owned, and I wouldnt regret it. The 458 I also took on the track once and regret it because of the front end being completely rock chipped now.

You dont look at costs/usage factor. I recently asked my business partner how much it costs every time we flew on his private plane to Vegas. Well, factor in fuel and pilot hours and you have a number. But wait a minute, hold up right there. What about storage costs? Inspections, maintenance, fuel that goes bad from sitting or gets moisture, hourly flight inspections, insurance, hanger storage. You come to realize it costs about $25,000 a month just to keep whether you flew 5 hours or 0. Some things you, can not look at the cost because to him it saves us time. That one time we use it a month gives him complete enjoyment, ease of planning, relaxation and convenience. Yes, he dreads having to think that he might have only used the plane once that month and cost $30,000 but his mind set is in the %0.0001

Having the means to buy something and not buying it is the most respect I have for people. Some close friends are multimillionaires and billionaires. They are the wealthiest people in our country, and probably some of the cheapest too. If you drove the car and didn't enjoy it, then its not for you. If you constantly look at the price everyday as my father does with his vette wondering if he should trade it in or keep it, then sports cars are probably not your thing. But if it is your dream car then go for it. Get it. You will either enjoy it or you will let it sit. Lets not even go into the numerous amounts of race cars I have totaled without insurance lol. A story for another time.


Funny analogy I heard a guy say on here about swapping his M3 for a Porsche. Horsepower and car shopping is like shopping for TV's. We always want the biggest TV or bad ass theater system. No one buys the biggest screen and takes it home to wonder what the smaller one is like. But when you buy the smaller one, you will always wonder what the bigger size is like

So no, the M3 is not as good as it gets and very far from it.
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      11-07-2012, 03:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Optherion View Post
OP, Have any of you actually owned a Ferrari, Lambo, or anything that is a one off platform supercar for that matter? That is an entirely different ball park. I partly agree and partly disagree.

Op, I can see where you are coming from, but I have to laugh inside after owning a Carrera GT, Ford GT, 458, GT3, M6, a 360 CS and a few e92 M3's. Some people want exotic sports cars and some are happy with something in the middle the does everything. The only thing I could possibly agree on is driving the Carrera GT. I literally got so tired of every stop light and being constant attention. If I had the roof off the car or even the windows down someone would ask "what car is that?" "How much did you pay for it?" Constant stares and too much attention. I got the windows tinted, and I almost hated to take it out because of every valet lusting to drive it. I would worry at dinner. It drove me nuts.

Even in the GT-R I get that. It will get annoying time and time again. I think that is why the M5 and AMG model cars really appeal to me now. However, if I look back on it, those were the BEST cars I have ever owned, and I wouldnt regret it. The 458 I also took on the track once and regret it because of the front end being completely rock chipped now.

You dont look at costs/usage factor. I recently asked my business partner how much it costs every time we flew on his private plane to Vegas. Well, factor in fuel and pilot hours and you have a number. But wait a minute, hold up right there. What about storage costs? Inspections, maintenance, fuel that goes bad from sitting or gets moisture, hourly flight inspections, insurance, hanger storage. You come to realize it costs about $25,000 a month just to keep whether you flew 5 hours or 0. Some things you, can not look at the cost because to him it saves us time. That one time we use it a month gives him complete enjoyment, ease of planning, relaxation and convenience. Yes, he dreads having to think that he might have only used the plane once that month and cost $30,000 but his mind set is in the %0.0001

Having the means to buy something and not buying it is the most respect I have for people. Some close friends are multimillionaires and billionaires. They are the wealthiest people in our country, and probably some of the cheapest too. If you drove the car and didn't enjoy it, then its not for you. If you constantly look at the price everyday as my father does with his vette wondering if he should trade it in or keep it, then sports cars are probably not your thing. But if it is your dream car then go for it. Get it. You will either enjoy it or you will let it sit. Lets not even go into the numerous amounts of race cars I have totaled without insurance lol. A story for another time.


Funny analogy I heard a guy say on here about swapping his M3 for a Porsche. Horsepower and car shopping is like shopping for TV's. We always want the biggest TV or bad ass theater system. No one buys the biggest screen and takes it home to wonder what the smaller one is like. But when you buy the smaller one, you will always wonder what the bigger size is like

So no, the M3 is not as good as it gets and very far from it.
Great post. I think this is partly why so many who drive M3s like to say, "oh our engine or this aspect or that aspect compare to this Porsche in this way or to that aspect of that Ferrari in that way". They want to compare to the bigger screen as you put it.
Fact is, money no option, I doubt anyone here saying the M3 is the ultimate for them would be driving one.
I dont think you can ever regret owning a CGT, GT3, 458 etc.
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      11-07-2012, 03:57 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optherion
OP, Have any of you actually owned a Ferrari, Lambo, or anything that is a one off platform supercar for that matter? That is an entirely different ball park. I partly agree and partly disagree.

Op, I can see where you are coming from, but I have to laugh inside after owning a Carrera GT, Ford GT, 458, GT3, M6, a 360 CS and a few e92 M3's. Some people want exotic sports cars and some are happy with something in the middle the does everything. The only thing I could possibly agree on is driving the Carrera GT. I literally got so tired of every stop light and being constant attention. If I had the roof off the car or even the windows down someone would ask "what car is that?" "How much did you pay for it?" Constant stares and too much attention. I got the windows tinted, and I almost hated to take it out because of every valet lusting to drive it. I would worry at dinner. It drove me nuts.

Even in the GT-R I get that. It will get annoying time and time again. I think that is why the M5 and AMG model cars really appeal to me now. However, if I look back on it, those were the BEST cars I have ever owned, and I wouldnt regret it. The 458 I also took on the track once and regret it because of the front end being completely rock chipped now.

You dont look at costs/usage factor. I recently asked my business partner how much it costs every time we flew on his private plane to Vegas. Well, factor in fuel and pilot hours and you have a number. But wait a minute, hold up right there. What about storage costs? Inspections, maintenance, fuel that goes bad from sitting or gets moisture, hourly flight inspections, insurance, hanger storage. You come to realize it costs about $25,000 a month just to keep whether you flew 5 hours or 0. Some things you, can not look at the cost because to him it saves us time. That one time we use it a month gives him complete enjoyment, ease of planning, relaxation and convenience. Yes, he dreads having to think that he might have only used the plane once that month and cost $30,000 but his mind set is in the %0.0001

Having the means to buy something and not buying it is the most respect I have for people. Some close friends are multimillionaires and billionaires. They are the wealthiest people in our country, and probably some of the cheapest too. If you drove the car and didn't enjoy it, then its not for you. If you constantly look at the price everyday as my father does with his vette wondering if he should trade it in or keep it, then sports cars are probably not your thing. But if it is your dream car then go for it. Get it. You will either enjoy it or you will let it sit. Lets not even go into the numerous amounts of race cars I have totaled without insurance lol. A story for another time.


Funny analogy I heard a guy say on here about swapping his M3 for a Porsche. Horsepower and car shopping is like shopping for TV's. We always want the biggest TV or bad ass theater system. No one buys the biggest screen and takes it home to wonder what the smaller one is like. But when you buy the smaller one, you will always wonder what the bigger size is like

So no, the M3 is not as good as it gets and very far from it.
Any room on the board???
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      11-07-2012, 04:17 PM   #50
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Any room on the board???
Most of the time there's room, if you have the right skillset or bring the correct value to the organization. That's why I didn't ask the question.
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      11-07-2012, 05:44 PM   #51
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I don't understand how someone could say they would never progress from this car?

I look at each car i own as a stepping stone onto something better. An exotic in particular (Lamborghini) would the pinnacle vehicle for me to own someday. I don't care for "practicality" or if it's a capable daily driver... It's an exotic, owning something that many can only dream about. The styling of these cars is worth it alone to me.
Hence my statement, in bold lettering, that when it comes to exotics, it is more about owning it, than actually driving it. It represents a kind of auto enthusiast's achievement. A trophy of sorts.
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      11-07-2012, 05:46 PM   #52
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Hence my statement, in bold lettering, that when it comes to exotics, it is more about owning it, than actually driving it. It represents a kind of auto enthusiast's achievement. A trophy of sorts.
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      11-07-2012, 06:33 PM   #53
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Hence my statement, in bold lettering, that when it comes to exotics, it is more about owning it, than actually driving it. It represents a kind of auto enthusiast's achievement. A trophy of sorts.
I think owning a Carrera GT or the likes are just as much about the drive (power/habdling/sound) as they are having a pinnacle of engineering in owning one so long as you actually drive it and don't let it sit.
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      11-07-2012, 06:54 PM   #54
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Hence my statement, in bold lettering, that when it comes to exotics, it is more about owning it, than actually driving it. It represents a kind of auto enthusiast's achievement. A trophy of sorts.



Well I left out the part where I would beat the piss out of it daily. It definitely wouldn't be in my garage sitting, that's for sure.
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      11-07-2012, 07:37 PM   #55
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This is getting very Interesting....I was just wondering....Why do you guys always leave Aston Martins out ? I know they are not considered exotics....but how the hell u leave a DBS or anything like that out this topic.
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      11-07-2012, 08:07 PM   #56
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This is getting very Interesting....I was just wondering....Why do you guys always leave Aston Martins out ? I know they are not considered exotics....but how the hell u leave a DBS or anything like that out this topic.
I would consider an Aston Martin an exotic, not a supercar, but an exotic.
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      11-07-2012, 09:11 PM   #57
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lol i was thinking the same thing
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      11-07-2012, 09:50 PM   #58
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OP, Have any of you actually owned a Ferrari, Lambo, or anything that is a one off platform supercar for that matter? That is an entirely different ball park. I partly agree and partly disagree.

Op, I can see where you are coming from, but I have to laugh inside after owning a Carrera GT, Ford GT, 458, GT3, M6, a 360 CS and a few e92 M3's. Some people want exotic sports cars and some are happy with something in the middle the does everything. The only thing I could possibly agree on is driving the Carrera GT. I literally got so tired of every stop light and being constant attention. If I had the roof off the car or even the windows down someone would ask "what car is that?" "How much did you pay for it?" Constant stares and too much attention. I got the windows tinted, and I almost hated to take it out because of every valet lusting to drive it. I would worry at dinner. It drove me nuts.

Even in the GT-R I get that. It will get annoying time and time again. I think that is why the M5 and AMG model cars really appeal to me now. However, if I look back on it, those were the BEST cars I have ever owned, and I wouldnt regret it. The 458 I also took on the track once and regret it because of the front end being completely rock chipped now.

You dont look at costs/usage factor. I recently asked my business partner how much it costs every time we flew on his private plane to Vegas. Well, factor in fuel and pilot hours and you have a number. But wait a minute, hold up right there. What about storage costs? Inspections, maintenance, fuel that goes bad from sitting or gets moisture, hourly flight inspections, insurance, hanger storage. You come to realize it costs about $25,000 a month just to keep whether you flew 5 hours or 0. Some things you, can not look at the cost because to him it saves us time. That one time we use it a month gives him complete enjoyment, ease of planning, relaxation and convenience. Yes, he dreads having to think that he might have only used the plane once that month and cost $30,000 but his mind set is in the %0.0001

Having the means to buy something and not buying it is the most respect I have for people. Some close friends are multimillionaires and billionaires. They are the wealthiest people in our country, and probably some of the cheapest too. If you drove the car and didn't enjoy it, then its not for you. If you constantly look at the price everyday as my father does with his vette wondering if he should trade it in or keep it, then sports cars are probably not your thing. But if it is your dream car then go for it. Get it. You will either enjoy it or you will let it sit. Lets not even go into the numerous amounts of race cars I have totaled without insurance lol. A story for another time.


Funny analogy I heard a guy say on here about swapping his M3 for a Porsche. Horsepower and car shopping is like shopping for TV's. We always want the biggest TV or bad ass theater system. No one buys the biggest screen and takes it home to wonder what the smaller one is like. But when you buy the smaller one, you will always wonder what the bigger size is like

So no, the M3 is not as good as it gets and very far from it.
Please go back and read the 17th and 19th (last) line of my original post.
It isn't just about the car, it is about the ownership experience in whole, which a lot of people have to consider. You are obviously in a more financially privileged position.
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      11-07-2012, 09:52 PM   #59
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I think owning a Carrera GT or the likes are just as much about the drive (power/habdling/sound) as they are having a pinnacle of engineering in owning one so long as you actually drive it and don't let it sit.
Agree totally, however, the reality is that most of them do, in fact, just sit.
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      11-07-2012, 10:38 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Optherion View Post
OP, Have any of you actually owned a Ferrari, Lambo, or anything that is a one off platform supercar for that matter? That is an entirely different ball park. I partly agree and partly disagree.

Op, I can see where you are coming from, but I have to laugh inside after owning a Carrera GT, Ford GT, 458, GT3, M6, a 360 CS and a few e92 M3's. Some people want exotic sports cars and some are happy with something in the middle the does everything. The only thing I could possibly agree on is driving the Carrera GT. I literally got so tired of every stop light and being constant attention. If I had the roof off the car or even the windows down someone would ask "what car is that?" "How much did you pay for it?" Constant stares and too much attention. I got the windows tinted, and I almost hated to take it out because of every valet lusting to drive it. I would worry at dinner. It drove me nuts.

Even in the GT-R I get that. It will get annoying time and time again. I think that is why the M5 and AMG model cars really appeal to me now. However, if I look back on it, those were the BEST cars I have ever owned, and I wouldnt regret it. The 458 I also took on the track once and regret it because of the front end being completely rock chipped now.

You dont look at costs/usage factor. I recently asked my business partner how much it costs every time we flew on his private plane to Vegas. Well, factor in fuel and pilot hours and you have a number. But wait a minute, hold up right there. What about storage costs? Inspections, maintenance, fuel that goes bad from sitting or gets moisture, hourly flight inspections, insurance, hanger storage. You come to realize it costs about $25,000 a month just to keep whether you flew 5 hours or 0. Some things you, can not look at the cost because to him it saves us time. That one time we use it a month gives him complete enjoyment, ease of planning, relaxation and convenience. Yes, he dreads having to think that he might have only used the plane once that month and cost $30,000 but his mind set is in the %0.0001

Having the means to buy something and not buying it is the most respect I have for people. Some close friends are multimillionaires and billionaires. They are the wealthiest people in our country, and probably some of the cheapest too. If you drove the car and didn't enjoy it, then its not for you. If you constantly look at the price everyday as my father does with his vette wondering if he should trade it in or keep it, then sports cars are probably not your thing. But if it is your dream car then go for it. Get it. You will either enjoy it or you will let it sit. Lets not even go into the numerous amounts of race cars I have totaled without insurance lol. A story for another time.


Funny analogy I heard a guy say on here about swapping his M3 for a Porsche. Horsepower and car shopping is like shopping for TV's. We always want the biggest TV or bad ass theater system. No one buys the biggest screen and takes it home to wonder what the smaller one is like. But when you buy the smaller one, you will always wonder what the bigger size is like

So no, the M3 is not as good as it gets and very far from it.


Sorry to quote your whole post, but what you said right there is 110 percent true. It's kinda like the whole 335 thing, when people trade UP to the M3. You never see M3's owners making posts about going DOWN to a 335.
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      11-08-2012, 12:27 AM   #61
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The M3 is kind of my reality dream car, but it is my fault for choosing public sector. My exotic that I lust for is a GT3/GT3 RS and I know that a true exotic/supercar is not within my reach for a very long time, if ever.
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      11-08-2012, 10:11 AM   #62
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Agree totally, however, the reality is that most of them do, in fact, just sit.
Totally agree with you on that! Most of these people dont get to enjoy what these cars truly do best. Its a shame to say the least.
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      11-08-2012, 10:14 AM   #63
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Agree totally, however, the reality is that most of them do, in fact, just sit.
True some times and most often they do. Im not sure why so many people get upset that another persons car "sits" lol. Some people drive them, and others buy 10 FORD GT's and never drive them only to list them on ebay 7 years later. The 458 was a trophy to me. But it was also a quick car to flip and own for 6 months. I don't see myself being another Ferrari owner. The attention is not me. Been there done that. I only say that because I have found such love for the ZR1, GT-R and other cars you can beat the living crap out of and give you just as much speed and sense of thrill. While the ferrari was a trophy to me, its also a "look at me status" which many people do like. When I go to the golf club for lunch or dinner, everyone sitting there has cigars and pays attention to "who drives up in the most expensive Rolls Royce" etc. I hate that. I have contemplated getting a turbo diesel Golf that runs off fast food restaurant oil and smells like tortilla chips when I pull up.

The Carrera GT was an absolute marvel I would look over and discover something new on it everyday. The insane amount of carbon work in the front end. The shifter is in the perfect location. You take your hand off the wheel and move it to the right about 4 inches and you instantly feel the shifter. Perfect placement. It makes me wonder why any cars put them down on the floor or so low. Its sound gives you chills, it is the highest perfection of Porsche engineering and represents a huge display of Porsche ability to make a performance machine.

On the other end, my business partner has an F40 and F50 in his garage. Each with less than 2000 miles. He never drives them. They are beautiful cars but they symbolize how far he has come and to him they are trophies of an era 1985-95 when he was incredibly successful. The peak in his career. They were cars he dreamed of. He is the original owner. He could tell me EVERYTHING about the car. His factory tour in italy, how he test drove the f40 and went to a week racing school at Ferrari test track, put on by Ferrari and their formula one drivers of that era. I have been begging to drive one, but we will see after the last $10,000 hose replacement service. My chances look slim.

Every car I have owned has been a progression towards moving up to something even better. Even my job is that way. What can I do better today to get farther ahead. The M3 is probably the ONLY sports car that I could live with everyday. It has the least amount of tendencies that get annoying. Great ride, good amount of power, beautiful sound. Nav works great and phone always works, heated seats. It is a brilliant car and the whole package. However I could care less when I walk out in the garage and see the Ferrari sitting. It was my dream car since I was 10 and I often do just walk outside every morning with a cup of coffee and stare at it. I have driven it on the track, but to me, its the progression of wanting more. Owning one or setting your goal on the next better thing is how all of us on Bimmerpost are the same and share the love of cars. We go from 328 to 335, then to M3's etc. I think everyone of us is driven for the next best. Whether it be mods, detailing perfection, moving up in our jobs, expensive watches, or owning a dream super car.

So my question to you is, what is your next car after the M3? 5-10 years down the road.
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Current Stable: Some Audi with a V10, Couple of BMW's, one F Car, and one P car. One lonely GT-R with all the Euros.

Last edited by Optherion; 11-08-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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      11-08-2012, 10:50 AM   #64
MMM PWR
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I have a 360 Spider and an E92 M3 coupe. The 360 is so pretty and the M3 so functional...

"My favorite is the one I am driving"
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      11-08-2012, 11:34 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Optherion View Post
True some times and most often they do. Im not sure why so many people get upset that another persons car "sits" lol. Some people drive them, and others buy 10 FORD GT's....
You know you after reading your post I've decided that I want to be rich...

Nah but seriously I can see where the OP is coming from but the truth is that if you are in a financial situation where the cost of owning an exotic is inconsequential then you can concentrate on the aspects of the car that appeal to you, weather it is from a pure performance perspective or a symbolic point of view or just because you like the rims. In this state of mind the ownership is worth it and then an M3 is not necessarily as good as it gets.

Take me for example when I bought my 1st M3 I was in a financial situation where it was not irresponsible to buy it but the cost was not inconsequential. I got in a state of mind that closely matches what you described towards exotics... I could just not completely relax with it. I eventually learned to live with it and enjoy it for what it was but the feeling was always there. I compare myself to some people in this forum and because they were in a better financial situation they could enjoy the car and be totally happy with it.

But I agree an M3 is a very balanced car in terms of attributes and after it the returns do diminish greatly for the cost.
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      11-08-2012, 11:50 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Of course, there are the super wealthy who completely live in a world of their own, and for them, these sorts of things just don't come into consideration, I suppose. For them, there is little difference between owning a 458 Italia and buying a tube of toothpaste. I am not sure I would want to be that rich, where even the things of the highest material caliber become valueless.



I agreed with everything you said but this. however, I am not in the fortunate position that you are of being able to afford a 458, so perhaps I would look at the world differently if I were in your shoes.

Ferrari's and the like are definitely a lifestyle choice - it's certainly not about performance. I would care less about the looks/attention you would get while driving it (who cares about the opinion of strangers) than the reputation you would develop among people who know you (though not everyone - some are good enough not to judge). with the forsaken economy that the people who supported Obama have burdened us with, I would feel like a self-indulgent jackass buying a $300k sports car.

in any case, great post.
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