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      11-06-2012, 12:34 PM   #309
Roman@ESS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Always on the attack aren't you

What's the point in discussing something with someone who has zero technical knowledge and compares apples with oranges??

If filter placement makes zero difference then you really are defying physics. So why would fresh air make a difference?

It's temperature related!! Stick to sales Roman.

The information about TTS has been posted before right at the beginning of when our kit was in development.
We know who was behind that.

Your company ethics and practices are pathetic to say the least and posting such information makes you look so bad.
You think you can just pull up a picture, combine the fact that TTS is the actual Rotrex distributer in the UK and use this to take away the credit from us?

I'm afraid you'll have to try a little harder than that.

Maybe we should post up where all of your parts are made and out sourced to? No wait, we don't do resort to such unethical tactics.

A total and utter disappointment from the company who sells the most superchargers and who should not even care....
However you do.

When we first released images of our plenum there were ESS owners saying our plenum looked like yours! Now it looks like a TTS Audi one?

You should think before you talk. That TTS manifold is a charge cooler setup. That means it has cores inside. Ours is designed for inter cooling and has deflection plates inside.

The shape, size and design is completely different. Every single manifold on the market has some type of split shoulders showing a V8 on it. Are they all copies of the TTS manifold too?

How do you also explain the amount of insight and understanding we have on our kit to a depth which is way beyond what the average person even understands. Where does all of the information come from? Just regurgitated?
Good luck with your rebadged TTS kit Sal, you are a true pioneer
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      11-06-2012, 12:43 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
I think the Vendors should arm wrestle it out


Donbona just so we're clear I'm not a fan boy nor have I ever preached anything but the truth and facts, many people who have met me in person will tell you the same or I believe they would

Hey I even offered you my Albanian girlfriend bro ! You know why ?
Cause I never get jealous when I see my girl with someone else, because my parents always taught me to give my used toys to the less fortunate.

Now lets all get the fuck along and have an orgy !!!!
No probs
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      11-06-2012, 12:44 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Good luck with your rebadged TTS kit Sal, you are a true pioneer
And the say money can buy class... Pah!
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      11-06-2012, 12:51 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
I have never attacked your or ESS personally although I may have attacked some of your fanboys.
But attacking other companies like this is downright cheap and dirty. Didn't expect this from you.
Really uncalled for to say the least.
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      11-06-2012, 01:23 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Not sure where you come up with your data Sal but like usual it is extreamly flawed. Filter placement makes 0 difference on our kit outside of heat. We have tested filter placement during development of our kit, with or without or mounted directly behind the blower and it made no difference in efficiency. Final placement had to do with access to fresh air. Your comment on swapping cooling cores is at best laughable. Our aftercooler core is an original Garrett core designed for 1000 HP. The front mount heat exchanger is a OEM Porsche heat exchanger. Intercooler pump is the same you will find in a Mercedes 55 AMG.

For someone who is selling his first supercharger system and someone who did not engineer the kit he is selling you sure come across like an expert on FI. Any R&D and testing you claim to have done on your kit was done by TTS. You and I both know this. Im not sure why you continue to pretend that you engineered the kit you are selling I would stick to reselling stuff others develop for you with your added mark up and spend less time trying to talk down about other vendors products who happen to do their own development and R&D.
Roman, please understand that I have a huge respect for what ESS Tuning has accomplished over the many years, especially recently with the E9X M3 Supercharger Market. There is no denying that your product in the skilled hands of many members here today, have achieved great results in both the form of acceleration time records and reliability. You can ask any of the more active M3Post and ESS Tuning clients, I often times send them PMs, emails, or write in their threads often times congratulating and sharing how impressed I am with the data and results they share.

This post of yours is a bit disappointing though. You just stated that others shouldn't "talk down about other vendors," yet you are doing the same thing. I only quickly read through this long thread, but my understanding is that, Sal@Evolve is trying to show that the Rotrex C38-91 can flow just as well as the Vortech V3Si despite many others saying it can't. My understanding is that he is just trying to share facts based off his own research and data collection on their supercharger kit. It's a simple comparison of different setup and different blower choice, maybe not necessarily an attack against you, AA, VFE, Gintani, or GPower.

Also claiming that Evolve Automotive doesn't do their own R&D or testing is purely ludicrous! Evolve Automotive is one of the very few companies and tuners that I know of that constantly post about their own R&D. They share their data logs, many photos, CAD designs, and dynos. This is consistent not just on Bimmerpost, but on all the other big BMW forums. Time and time again, they present the type of development they do in house. They also share about the companies that they out source to for different pieces of their overhaul product.

I know that you and many automotive enthusiasts speak highly of the ESS product, but seeing unethical and poor-taste posts such as this really does not help carry a proper image of ESS Tuning. If ever, it can leave a bad taste in people's mouths. I hate to say this, but I have heard of people choosing different companies because they were not impressed with how sometimes ESS Tuning would publicly present themselves. I know these are probably only a small sample size compared to your actual client based, but it does happen. Honestly, I am sure it happens to every company in any industry in one way or another. I just assume that as being the public image of a business, it is best to practice in such a way to reduce any such unfortunate situations.

From my outside perspective, I think you may also be misunderstanding what Sal@Evolve was trying to state in Post #309. I read that post several times and I think what he is trying to say is that if someone were to change how ESS Tuning designed their kit, then the efficiency can drop! Which I think you would agree upon. I personally don't see this as an attack towards you or ESS Tuning.

------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Just a quick example - put the air filter at the back of an ESS kit and leave it open. Watch how the efficiency of the setup (not the Vortech) just takes a nose dive.
My interpretation of this post is that Sal is saying that if someone moved the placement of the air filter from ESS originally placed it to the back of the supercharger or left it open, then the efficiency would drop. Looking at it from a different prospective, Sal is stating that ESS chose a more suitable location compared to other possibilities. I think the efficiency of the kit that Sal brings up is similar to your claims about controlling heat.

The following quotes from your past posts I believe supports this:

Original Thread Link: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7323770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
For a supercharger system to make the most power it can it first needs to have access the lowest IAT possible. The best source of cool air is the front of the vehicle away from the heat of the engine bay. The decision to run our air intake system in the location we did was based on function not style. The filter we use is large and when placed correctly draws air in from above, below and in the middle of the drivers side air duct. If the air duct was covered for some reason by a block of snow or a small wild animal the filter would still have access to air. The K&N filter can be exposed to moisture without issue and with the optional water resistant filter wrap there is no need to worry about running the vehicle in regions with a high annual rainfall. We have used this same design on our E46 M3 applications for years with no issues.
Original Thread Link: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7156766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Our intake system is designed to access air from outside the engine bay. Any attempt to pull air in from the engine bay via open filter or by a filter enclosed in a box behind the blower will almost always result in higher air intake temps as this air has been heated by the engine and the headers located directly below. It is possible to locate an intake in the engine bay but if you have the option to access cooler air direct from the front of the car we feel it is always a better option.

The intake filter has to be large to meet the CFM requirements of the system, this requires exact placement of the filter during installation as space is limited. When placing the filter it is ok to have a portion of it below the air duct as this area is enclosed within the front bumper cover when re-installed. We have been recently working to supply a modified air duct that will allow customers to retain the original. We will continue to modify the design of this part so that DIY installations require less effort.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/Intake-1.jpg
------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Take the ESS kit and change the charge cooler core a really poor one with a high pressure and high heat rejection - you see the efficiency drop. Less boost and even less HP.
Here, I think Sal is trying say that if someone were to replace the Garret core and OEM Porsche heat exchanger for an even cheaper and poorly made variation, then the efficiency of your kit would go down again. I don't see this as Sal talking poorly of ESS, but more so saying that their decisions to outsource their parts from Garret and OEM Porsche is a sound decision!

------

Overall, what I am trying to say is that the constant attacks that I see in this forum towards any company are really just unnecessary. People should just let the products speak for themselves. What I appreciate a lot about ESS Tuning and Evolve Automotive is that they all try to share factual information when they can. In this specific thread, Evolve Automotive posted very candid information on their own R&D and attempts at trying different blowers. I believe this was probably brought up because of the debate between different blower types. I like how there are many threads posted by respectable members displaying their great performance achievements and data logging! Everyone should let fact, research, and data logging take their own course of interpretation on the forum. No need to add snide comments, insults, or potentially false accusations.

The informative and factual types of posts that make visiting the forums enjoyable and educational. The posts that carry a negative tone of insulting other companies is really unnecessary, unethical, and in no way constructive. There will always be rumors, allegations, and misinformation, but I think the responsibility of Forum Sponsors and Vendors is to lead by positive example. This is the for sake of proper business practice and just pure positive enthusiasm for the car culture.

------

So, what about Albanian Women?
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      11-06-2012, 01:26 PM   #314
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this thread made my monday and tuesday a whole lot better... and usually nothing can make up my mondays and tuesdays... good read guys!
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      11-06-2012, 01:59 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
Roman, please understand that I have a huge respect for what ESS Tuning has accomplished over the many years, especially recently with the E9X M3 Supercharger Market. There is no denying that your product in the skilled hands of many members here today, have achieved great results in both the form of acceleration time records and reliability. You can ask any of the more active M3Post and ESS Tuning clients, I often times send them PMs, emails, or write in their threads often times congratulating and sharing how impressed I am with the data and results they share.

This post of yours is a bit disappointing though. You just stated that others shouldn't "talk down about other vendors," yet you are doing the same thing. I only quickly read through this long thread, but my understanding is that, Sal@Evolve is trying to show that the Rotrex C38-91 can flow just as well as the Vortech V3Si despite many others saying it can't. My understanding is that he is just trying to share facts based off his own research and data collection on their supercharger kit. It's a simple comparison of different setup and different blower choice, maybe not necessarily an attack against you, AA, VFE, Gintani, or GPower.

Also claiming that Evolve Automotive doesn't do their own R&D or testing is purely ludicrous! Evolve Automotive is one of the very few companies and tuners that I know of that constantly post about their own R&D. They share their data logs, many photos, CAD designs, and dynos. This is consistent not just on Bimmerpost, but on all the other big BMW forums. Time and time again, they present the type of development they do in house. They also share about the companies that they out source to for different pieces of their overhaul product.

I know that you and many automotive enthusiasts speak highly of the ESS product, but seeing unethical and poor-taste posts such as this really does not help carry a proper image of ESS Tuning. If ever, it can leave a bad taste in people's mouths. I hate to say this, but I have heard of people choosing different companies because they were not impressed with how sometimes ESS Tuning would publicly present themselves. I know these are probably only a small sample size compared to your actual client based, but it does happen. Honestly, I am sure it happens to every company in any industry in one way or another. I just assume that as being the public image of a business, it is best to practice in such a way to reduce any such unfortunate situations.

From my outside perspective, I think you may also be misunderstanding what Sal@Evolve was trying to state in Post #309. I read that post several times and I think what he is trying to say is that if someone were to change how ESS Tuning designed their kit, then the efficiency can drop! Which I think you would agree upon. I personally don't see this as an attack towards you or ESS Tuning.

------

My interpretation of this post is that Sal is saying that if someone moved the placement of the air filter from ESS originally placed it to the back of the supercharger or left it open, then the efficiency would drop. Looking at it from a different prospective, Sal is stating that ESS chose a more suitable location compared to other possibilities. I think the efficiency of the kit that Sal brings up is similar to your claims about controlling heat.

The following quotes from your past posts I believe supports this:

Original Thread Link: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7323770


Original Thread Link: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7156766

------

Here, I think Sal is trying say that if someone were to replace the Garret core and OEM Porsche heat exchanger for an even cheaper and poorly made variation, then the efficiency of your kit would go down again. I don't see this as Sal talking poorly of ESS, but more so saying that their decisions to outsource their parts from Garret and OEM Porsche is a sound decision!

------

Overall, what I am trying to say is that the constant attacks that I see in this forum towards any company are really just unnecessary. People should just let the products speak for themselves. What I appreciate a lot about ESS Tuning and Evolve Automotive is that they all try to share factual information when they can. In this specific thread, Evolve Automotive posted very candid information on their own R&D and attempts at trying different blowers. I believe this was probably brought up because of the debate between different blower types. I like how there are many threads posted by respectable members displaying their great performance achievements and data logging! Everyone should let fact, research, and data logging take their own course of interpretation on the forum. No need to add snide comments, insults, or potentially false accusations.

The informative and factual types of posts that make visiting the forums enjoyable and educational. The posts that carry a negative tone of insulting other companies is really unnecessary, unethical, and in no way constructive. There will always be rumors, allegations, and misinformation, but I think the responsibility of Forum Sponsors and Vendors is to lead by positive example. This is the for sake of proper business practice and just pure positive enthusiasm for the car culture.

------

So, what about Albanian Women?
Perfectly said sir!

As for the Albanian women, better ask m33
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      11-06-2012, 02:01 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
Unfortunately I'm way too busy committing voter fraud today otherwise I would participate in this wonderful thread. My apologies.
LOL
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      11-06-2012, 02:05 PM   #317
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This thread is great,

Since we know all SC manufacturers utilize third party parts. why are the costs of these kits so rediculously expensive. R&D is the only selling point as to why SC manufacturers are charging so much.

We are in an enterprising market, if i was a new comer like evolve, i would simply drop my price, work off smaller margins and build a client base as large as ESS. Especially since all of these kits are fairly similar if you compare them spec to spec. Its just a matter of preference / support and perceived reliability.

Roman - how can you continue to sell the fact that R & D attributes to the cost of your SC's. Im bringing this up in the most professional manner possible. ESS outright has sold the most SC's on the E9X platform, what happened to buying power? I would only assume costs / R & D have already been covered by your past laurels. Why not drop the price on the SC's and just grab the lion share of this market.

I cannot help but think, aftermarket Tuners are wondering what they can do for future models. with FI becoming more prevalent on new cars. What is ESS / VF / AA / Evolve planning to do? build SC's for lower displacement motors? or stick to tunes.

I think of these things, as long term longevity of any SC manufacturer will be put at risk with SC demands dropping due to factory built FI engines.

Posted with all due respect to any SC manufacturer and Fanbois!
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      11-06-2012, 02:09 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriston View Post
This thread is great,

Since we know all SC manufacturers utilize third party parts. why are the costs of these kits so rediculously expensive. R&D is the only selling point as to why SC manufacturers are charging so much.

We are in an enterprising market, if i was a new comer like evolve, i would simply drop my price, work off smaller margins and build a client base as large as ESS. Especially since all of these kits are fairly similar if you compare them spec to spec. Its just a matter of preference / support and perceived reliability.

Roman - how can you continue to sell the fact that R & D attributes to the cost of your SC's. Im bringing this up in the most professional manner possible. ESS outright has sold the most SC's on the E9X platform, what happened to buying power? I would only assume costs / R & D have already been covered by your past laurels. Why not drop the price on the SC's and just grab the lion share of this market.

I cannot help but think, aftermarket Tuners are wondering what they can do for future models. with FI becoming more prevalent on new cars. What is ESS / VF / AA / Evolve planning to do? build SC's for lower displacement motors? or stick to tunes.

I think of these things, as long term longevity of any SC manufacturer will be put at risk with SC demands dropping due to factory built FI engines.

Posted with all due respect to any SC manufacturer and Fanbois!
Its a great question and one that a few of us have been discussing offline especially when you look at the cost of SC for E46. Why are E9X options so expensive?
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      11-06-2012, 02:12 PM   #319
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There is a lot of good technical information in the thread, which I appreciate. It is understandable that tuners defend themselves and their products. Evolve has done a nice job with its kit. The explanation about getting more out of the blower by maximizing efficiency makes perfect sense to me. Evolve has provided a lot of documentation on how it is designing the kit to maximize efficiency. I like the piping to the intercooler. It reminded me of what Dinan did on the E46M3, which was also a nicely engineered air to intercooler system with a lot of R&D. Whether the big Rotrex will be as good a choice for modded 600 plus rwhp systems remains to be seen, but for 98 percent of buyers who don't mod beyond the kit or build a low compression motor, it won't matter. The Rotrex is little and provides some packaging advantages that were long ago recognized by tuners -- they could fit air to air intercoolers more easily than with the big Vortech. Air to air and air to water both work well -- you see car makers with massive R&D budgets using both. Air to air is generally considered simpler and more failsafe, but both have been used successfully on high powered factory cars like Porsche turbos (air to air) and Mercedes AMG (air to water). I have run both on forced induction BMWs and been happy with both. Obviously, both could be poorly executed and thus inefficient, but let's give the tuners some credit.
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      11-06-2012, 02:16 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Hey I even offered you my Albanian girlfriend bro ! You know why ?
Cause I never get jealous when I see my girl with someone else, because my parents always taught me to give my used toys to the less fortunate.

Now lets all get the fuck along and have an orgy !!!!
In for pics.

...of the Albanian gf, not your orgy.
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      11-06-2012, 02:21 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F16RCE View Post
Its a great question and one that a few of us have been discussing offline especially when you look at the cost of SC for E46. Why are E9X options so expensive?
Look at the parts it takes to SC a E9x compared to the E46 for starters.
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      11-06-2012, 02:27 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
Look at the parts it takes to SC a E9x compared to the E46 for starters.
Fair comment but does that still amount to that much difference? isnt the difference twice as much?
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      11-06-2012, 02:32 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F16RCE View Post
Fair comment but does that still amount to that much difference? isnt the difference twice as much?
Not sure, never had an E46
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      11-06-2012, 02:32 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F16RCE View Post
Fair comment but does that still amount to that much difference? isnt the difference twice as much?
The concept of "price elasticity" probably plays the most significant role in setting pricing.

Those of you who own a business and sell a product/service obviously know this all too well.

I think the pricing for these kits is very reasonable.
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      11-06-2012, 02:33 PM   #325
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Good reading. So who's voting today ? Lol
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      11-06-2012, 02:45 PM   #326
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I know that if your cost is for example 3k you tag on 3times that which is 9k and totals up to 12k then you have costs like facility, tune labor , advertisement , future R&D & cars which in ESS's case they purchase to test on ( not fan boy'ing just laying out facts ) . Basically I say this in defense of all tuners " it's not easy running/operating a company " theirs a lot involved , I should know I run one !
Then ...... When you and the community recognize a good solid product you play with your price ... That nature of business !
Some work on volume some on fine and select clientele....

But nonetheless it's good to see solid competition as that drives the price Down
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      11-06-2012, 02:49 PM   #327
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Dbl post ...

Last edited by m33; 11-06-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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      11-06-2012, 02:54 PM   #328
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Not for nothing but my kit ran me about 15-16k and I was able to hang side by side with a alpha 9 Gtr which paid 25+k for their kit and not
To mention the car costs 100k so it's not that bad ! I think it's fairly priced...
Especially when platform A is turbo charged and platform B is NA converted to FI a lot goes into the tuning aspect. I'm sure ESS and Evolve would agree to this.

I'm personally not down with shit shiesty tuners who destroy innocent people's cars ! PERIOD
For example ..... Ah fuck it not getting into it they know who they are

But it's also good to see company's offering discounts !
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      11-06-2012, 02:55 PM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
The concept of "price elasticity" probably plays the most significant role in setting pricing.

Those of you who own a business and sell a product/service obviously know this all too well.

I think the pricing for these kits is very reasonable.
We have worked to keep pricing as low as we can to date. Last I checked our current mix offers some of the best performance value for the dollar on the market. We continue to find more cost effective ways to build the parts we make in house and negotiate pricing on the parts we do not like the blowers. When we are successful at doing this we pass the savings to our customers. We know that cars get older and cheaper and we have to always find ways to deliver a very high quality product at reasonable pricing.

The E46 M3 kits for example sells now for thousands less than it did years ago, it took time but over the years we were able to lower our production costs on it and we continue to even today.
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      11-06-2012, 03:22 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
We have worked to keep pricing as low as we can to date. Last I checked our current mix offers some of the best performance value for the dollar on the market. We continue to find more cost effective ways to build the parts we make in house and negotiate pricing on the parts we do not like the blowers. When we are successful at doing this we pass the savings to our customers. We know that cars get older and cheaper and we have to always find ways to deliver a very high quality product at reasonable pricing.

The E46 M3 kits for example sells now for thousands less than it did years ago, it took time but over the years we were able to lower our production costs on it and we continue to even today.
So when is the cost coming down on the E9X platforms?
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