SC confused !

[Sal@Evolve]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

As you noted above, peak potential CFM on a compressor map does not mean the same power is made on all engines. It may well be that to the 550 rwhp range, the Rotrex and Vortech are pretty similar on the S65, but that does not mean they will necessarily be pretty similar after that. The compressor maps probably are not identical.

AA, for example, gave up on the Rotrex because it could not flow enough on a low compression S65. On the other hand, ESS has run the Vortech to 645 rwhp on a low compression S65.

It may well be that for more efficient stock compression motors making 550 to 600 rwhp, the Rotrex works just as well as the Vortech. We will have to see some dynojet comparisons at some point.

One thing I did not notice from the Rotrex C38-91 dyno comparison to the Vortech is any indication the big Rotrex has any torque advantage over the Vortech. I had been wondering whether the big Rotrex would sacrifice that. But daily drivability cannot be seen on the dyno, which is constant full throttle in one gear. Hopefully, on the road, the Rotrex offers some advantage over the Vortech.

We need more people like yourself on this thread.

Just to point out - the comparison can only be really done on setups where the overall efficiency of the system is similar.
Just a quick example - put the air filter at the back of an ESS kit and leave it open. Watch how the efficiency of the setup (not the Vortech) just takes a nose dive.
Put a HS Marstons £3000 intercooler on our Rotrex kit - see the efficiency go up.
Put a truck core in the place of our curent intercooler core - see it nose dive. More boost but less power because of the core quality rejecting too much heat.
Take the ESS kit and change the charge cooler core a really poor one with a high pressure and high heat rejection - you see the efficiency drop. Less boost and even less HP.

I hope people are beginning to understand what I am talking about now.

The C38-91 on the S65 comparison shows more HP being generated upto the red line. If it producing more HP at the same RPM's it is producing more torque.
I can post or send you the power vs torque graph of the same examples.

The very reason that one compressor behaves better in different situations is the reason we don't care about which blower we use. If we find an ASA (523) or Vortech to be better on really low compression engines then so be it, we will use it. It's pretty common knowledge now that the Vortech bracket/belt drive is already developed by us.

[m33]

Originally Posted by Donbona

Drew stop posting here... You don't play fair. Your car is on a different level

Mmmmmmmmmmm yummy

[Donbona]

Originally Posted by m33

Mmmmmmmmmmm yummy

You have issues

[Andrew@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Glad to see you found a better option. I was not aware that you switched over to Rotrex as the standard over the HKS.

Standard with our other supercharger kits. Example E46,e36....

[Andrew@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by Top_Gear

Some questions for you guys:

(1) Is there such a thing as "Holiday Pricing" for SC kits? Looking to score a good deal over the coming holidays and I am in on any "group buy" for anything offered that's worthwhile (I am 100% stock).

(2) Both the VF620 and newly announced ESS-VT625 use the Vortech SC, they are the least expensive, and appear to have similar cooling. Are they about the same in performance and reliability? The free install offered for the VF620 has me very interested but the VT625 has a wider installed base and no reported problems.

(3) For me the most important thing is throttle response and how quickly the power comes on from lower RPMs and up. I have not been able to figure out which kit has the edge in this regard.

It seems very hard to get a true comparison of these kits as there is too much bias in these forums.

Just waiting for a good holiday deal ...

We have a 20% off going on for the wounded warriors charity. This includes every product we make.

[Roman@ESS]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

We need more people like yourself on this thread.

Just to point out - the comparison can only be really done on setups where the overall efficiency of the system is similar.
Just a quick example - put the air filter at the back of an ESS kit and leave it open. Watch how the efficiency of the setup (not the Vortech) just takes a nose dive.
Put a HS Marstons £3000 intercooler on our Rotrex kit - see the efficiency go up.
Put a truck core in the place of our curent intercooler core - see it nose dive. More boost but less power because of the core quality rejecting too much heat.
Take the ESS kit and change the charge cooler core a really poor one with a high pressure and high heat rejection - you see the efficiency drop. Less boost and even less HP.

I hope people are beginning to understand what I am talking about now.

The C38-91 on the S65 comparison shows more HP being generated upto the red line. If it producing more HP at the same RPM's it is producing more torque.
I can post or send you the power vs torque graph of the same examples.

The very reason that one compressor behaves better in different situations is the reason we don't care about which blower we use. If we find an ASA (523) or Vortech to be better on really low compression engines then so be it, we will use it. It's pretty common knowledge now that the Vortech bracket/belt drive is already developed by us.

Not sure where you come up with your data Sal but like usual it is extreamly flawed. Filter placement makes 0 difference on our kit outside of heat. We have tested filter placement during development of our kit, with or without or mounted directly behind the blower and it made no difference in efficiency. Final placement had to do with access to fresh air. Your comment on swapping cooling cores is at best laughable. Our aftercooler core is an original Garrett core designed for 1000 HP. The front mount heat exchanger is a OEM Porsche heat exchanger. Intercooler pump is the same you will find in a Mercedes 55 AMG.

For someone who is selling his first supercharger system and someone who did not engineer the kit he is selling you sure come across like an expert on FI. Any R&D and testing you claim to have done on your kit was done by TTS. You and I both know this. Im not sure why you continue to pretend that you engineered the kit you are selling I would stick to reselling stuff others develop for you with your added mark up and spend less time trying to talk down about other vendors products who happen to do their own development and R&D.

Does this manifold look familiar? It should it the TTS Audi manifold that for some reason looks exactly like your M3 manifold. I guess if you swap the TTS logo with Evolve you can take credit for their development on this kit also.

[Omar@VelosDesignwerks]

Originally Posted by Top_Gear

Some questions for you guys:

(1) Is there such a thing as "Holiday Pricing" for SC kits? Looking to score a good deal over the coming holidays and I am in on any "group buy" for anything offered that's worthwhile (I am 100% stock).

Yes there is, http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766280

(2) Both the VF620 and newly announced ESS-VT625 use the Vortech SC, they are the least expensive, and appear to have similar cooling. Are they about the same in performance and reliability? The free install offered for the VF620 has me very interested but the VT625 has a wider installed base and no reported problems. Both are great options and I would say similar in terms of performance. When it comes to reliability ESS has the edge due to the amount of kits on the market. Its also safe to say the VF kits have proven to be reliable so far.

(3) For me the most important thing is throttle response and how quickly the power comes on from lower RPMs and up. I have not been able to figure out which kit has the edge in this regard. This is relative, I would go out on a limb and say both the ESS and VF kits will be similar here because of the blower selection. I have driven a few ESS cars and have no complaints over the throttle response. It is very responsive and not too much, you can tell a lot of time was spent on the tuning.

It seems very hard to get a true comparison of these kits as there is too much bias in these forums.

Just waiting for a good holiday deal ...

Comments above in red.

Best Regards,

[erm324]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Not sure where you come up with your data Sal but like usual it is extreamly flawed. Filter placement makes 0 difference on our kit. We have tested filter placement during development of our kit, with or without or mounted directly behind the blower and it made no difference in efficiency. Final placement had to do with access to fresh air. Your comment on swapping cooling cores is at best laughable.

For someone who is selling his first supercharger system and someone who did not engineer the kit he is selling you sure come across like an expert on FI. Any R&D and testing you claim to have done on your kit was done by TTS. You and I both know this. Im not sure why you continue to pretend that you engineered the kit you are selling I would stick to reselling stuff others develop for you with your added mark up and spend less time trying to talk down about other vendors products who happen to do their own development and R&D.

Does this manifold look familiar? It should it the TTS Audi manifold that for some reason looks exactly like your M3 manifold. I guess if you swap the TTS logo with Evolve you can take credit for their development on this kit also.

I've refrained from posting in this thread for over 10 pages now because I cant stand the idiocity that comes out of the mouths of the very same handful of delusional people Ive went back and forth with in previous threads, but this post pretty much puts an end to the thread. The truth always comes out

[Sal@Evolve]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Not sure where you come up with your data Sal but like usual it is extreamly flawed. Filter placement makes 0 difference on our kit outside of heat. We have tested filter placement during development of our kit, with or without or mounted directly behind the blower and it made no difference in efficiency. Final placement had to do with access to fresh air. Your comment on swapping cooling cores is at best laughable.

For someone who is selling his first supercharger system and someone who did not engineer the kit he is selling you sure come across like an expert on FI. Any R&D and testing you claim to have done on your kit was done by TTS. You and I both know this. Im not sure why you continue to pretend that you engineered the kit you are selling I would stick to reselling stuff others develop for you with your added mark up and spend less time trying to talk down about other vendors products who happen to do their own development and R&D.

Does this manifold look familiar? It should it the TTS Audi manifold that for some reason looks exactly like your M3 manifold. I guess if you swap the TTS logo with Evolve you can take credit for their development on this kit also.

Always on the attack aren't you

What's the point in discussing something with someone who has zero technical knowledge and compares apples with oranges??

If filter placement makes zero difference then you really are defying physics. So why would fresh air make a difference?

It's temperature related!! Stick to sales Roman.

The information about TTS has been posted before right at the beginning of when our kit was in development.
We know who was behind that.

Your company ethics and practices are pathetic to say the least and posting such information makes you look so bad.
You think you can just pull up a picture, combine the fact that TTS is the actual Rotrex distributer in the UK and use this to take away the credit from us?

I'm afraid you'll have to try a little harder than that.

Maybe we should post up where all of your parts are made and out sourced to? No wait, we don't do resort to such unethical tactics.

A total and utter disappointment from the company who sells the most superchargers and who should not even care....
However you do.

When we first released images of our plenum there were ESS owners saying our plenum looked like yours! Now it looks like a TTS Audi one?

You should think before you talk. That TTS manifold is a charge cooler setup. That means it has cores inside. Ours is designed for inter cooling and has deflection plates inside.

The shape, size and design is completely different. Every single manifold on the market has some type of split shoulders showing a V8 on it. Are they all copies of the TTS manifold too?

How do you also explain the amount of insight and understanding we have on our kit to a depth which is way beyond what the average person even understands. Where does all of the information come from? Just regurgitated?

[knolow]

Awkward.

All I know is I have the ESS VT2-625 kit and Love it.

[Donbona]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Not sure where you come up with your data Sal but like usual it is extreamly flawed. Filter placement makes 0 difference on our kit outside of heat. We have tested filter placement during development of our kit, with or without or mounted directly behind the blower and it made no difference in efficiency. Final placement had to do with access to fresh air. Your comment on swapping cooling cores is at best laughable. Our aftercooler core is an original Garrett core designed for 1000 HP. The front mount heat exchanger is a OEM Porsche heat exchanger. Intercooler pump is the same you will find in a Mercedes 55 AMG.

For someone who is selling his first supercharger system and someone who did not engineer the kit he is selling you sure come across like an expert on FI. Any R&D and testing you claim to have done on your kit was done by TTS. You and I both know this. Im not sure why you continue to pretend that you engineered the kit you are selling I would stick to reselling stuff others develop for you with your added mark up and spend less time trying to talk down about other vendors products who happen to do their own development and R&D.

Does this manifold look familiar? It should it the TTS Audi manifold that for some reason looks exactly like your M3 manifold. I guess if you swap the TTS logo with Evolve you can take credit for their development on this kit also.

I have never attacked your or ESS personally although I may have attacked some of your fanboys.
But attacking other companies like this is downright cheap and dirty. Didn't expect this from you.

[F16RCE]

So did we ever reach a conclusion on which is best?






Sorry couldnt resist!

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Top_Gear

Some questions for you guys:

(1) Is there such a thing as "Holiday Pricing" for SC kits? Looking to score a good deal over the coming holidays and I am in on any "group buy" for anything offered that's worthwhile (I am 100% stock).

(2) Both the VF620 and newly announced ESS-VT625 use the Vortech SC, they are the least expensive, and appear to have similar cooling. Are they about the same in performance and reliability? The free install offered for the VF620 has me very interested but the VT625 has a wider installed base and no reported problems.

(3) For me the most important thing is throttle response and how quickly the power comes on from lower RPMs and up. I have not been able to figure out which kit has the edge in this regard.

It seems very hard to get a true comparison of these kits as there is too much bias in these forums.

Just waiting for a good holiday deal ...

You have PM.

[m33]

I think the Vendors should arm wrestle it out


Donbona just so we're clear I'm not a fan boy nor have I ever preached anything but the truth and facts, many people who have met me in person will tell you the same or I believe they would

Hey I even offered you my Albanian girlfriend bro ! You know why ?
Cause I never get jealous when I see my girl with someone else, because my parents always taught me to give my used toys to the less fortunate.

Now lets all get the fuck along and have an orgy !!!!

[Roman@ESS]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Always on the attack aren't you

What's the point in discussing something with someone who has zero technical knowledge and compares apples with oranges??

If filter placement makes zero difference then you really are defying physics. So why would fresh air make a difference?

It's temperature related!! Stick to sales Roman.

The information about TTS has been posted before right at the beginning of when our kit was in development.
We know who was behind that.

Your company ethics and practices are pathetic to say the least and posting such information makes you look so bad.
You think you can just pull up a picture, combine the fact that TTS is the actual Rotrex distributer in the UK and use this to take away the credit from us?

I'm afraid you'll have to try a little harder than that.

Maybe we should post up where all of your parts are made and out sourced to? No wait, we don't do resort to such unethical tactics.

A total and utter disappointment from the company who sells the most superchargers and who should not even care....
However you do.

When we first released images of our plenum there were ESS owners saying our plenum looked like yours! Now it looks like a TTS Audi one?

You should think before you talk. That TTS manifold is a charge cooler setup. That means it has cores inside. Ours is designed for inter cooling and has deflection plates inside.

The shape, size and design is completely different. Every single manifold on the market has some type of split shoulders showing a V8 on it. Are they all copies of the TTS manifold too?

How do you also explain the amount of insight and understanding we have on our kit to a depth which is way beyond what the average person even understands. Where does all of the information come from? Just regurgitated?

Good luck with your rebadged TTS kit Sal, you are a true pioneer

[Donbona]

Originally Posted by m33

I think the Vendors should arm wrestle it out


Donbona just so we're clear I'm not a fan boy nor have I ever preached anything but the truth and facts, many people who have met me in person will tell you the same or I believe they would

Hey I even offered you my Albanian girlfriend bro ! You know why ?
Cause I never get jealous when I see my girl with someone else, because my parents always taught me to give my used toys to the less fortunate.

Now lets all get the fuck along and have an orgy !!!!

No probs

[Donbona]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Good luck with your rebadged TTS kit Sal, you are a true pioneer

And the say money can buy class... Pah!

[Andrew@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by Donbona

I have never attacked your or ESS personally although I may have attacked some of your fanboys.
But attacking other companies like this is downright cheap and dirty. Didn't expect this from you.

Really uncalled for to say the least.

[biglare]

In for my morning nom nom nom!

[flipm3]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Not sure where you come up with your data Sal but like usual it is extreamly flawed. Filter placement makes 0 difference on our kit outside of heat. We have tested filter placement during development of our kit, with or without or mounted directly behind the blower and it made no difference in efficiency. Final placement had to do with access to fresh air. Your comment on swapping cooling cores is at best laughable. Our aftercooler core is an original Garrett core designed for 1000 HP. The front mount heat exchanger is a OEM Porsche heat exchanger. Intercooler pump is the same you will find in a Mercedes 55 AMG.

For someone who is selling his first supercharger system and someone who did not engineer the kit he is selling you sure come across like an expert on FI. Any R&D and testing you claim to have done on your kit was done by TTS. You and I both know this. Im not sure why you continue to pretend that you engineered the kit you are selling I would stick to reselling stuff others develop for you with your added mark up and spend less time trying to talk down about other vendors products who happen to do their own development and R&D.

Roman, please understand that I have a huge respect for what ESS Tuning has accomplished over the many years, especially recently with the E9X M3 Supercharger Market. There is no denying that your product in the skilled hands of many members here today, have achieved great results in both the form of acceleration time records and reliability. You can ask any of the more active M3Post and ESS Tuning clients, I often times send them PMs, emails, or write in their threads often times congratulating and sharing how impressed I am with the data and results they share.

This post of yours is a bit disappointing though. You just stated that others shouldn't "talk down about other vendors," yet you are doing the same thing. I only quickly read through this long thread, but my understanding is that, Sal@Evolve is trying to show that the Rotrex C38-91 can flow just as well as the Vortech V3Si despite many others saying it can't. My understanding is that he is just trying to share facts based off his own research and data collection on their supercharger kit. It's a simple comparison of different setup and different blower choice, maybe not necessarily an attack against you, AA, VFE, Gintani, or GPower.

Also claiming that Evolve Automotive doesn't do their own R&D or testing is purely ludicrous! Evolve Automotive is one of the very few companies and tuners that I know of that constantly post about their own R&D. They share their data logs, many photos, CAD designs, and dynos. This is consistent not just on Bimmerpost, but on all the other big BMW forums. Time and time again, they present the type of development they do in house. They also share about the companies that they out source to for different pieces of their overhaul product.

I know that you and many automotive enthusiasts speak highly of the ESS product, but seeing unethical and poor-taste posts such as this really does not help carry a proper image of ESS Tuning. If ever, it can leave a bad taste in people's mouths. I hate to say this, but I have heard of people choosing different companies because they were not impressed with how sometimes ESS Tuning would publicly present themselves. I know these are probably only a small sample size compared to your actual client based, but it does happen. Honestly, I am sure it happens to every company in any industry in one way or another. I just assume that as being the public image of a business, it is best to practice in such a way to reduce any such unfortunate situations.

From my outside perspective, I think you may also be misunderstanding what Sal@Evolve was trying to state in Post #309. I read that post several times and I think what he is trying to say is that if someone were to change how ESS Tuning designed their kit, then the efficiency can drop! Which I think you would agree upon. I personally don't see this as an attack towards you or ESS Tuning.

------

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Just a quick example - put the air filter at the back of an ESS kit and leave it open. Watch how the efficiency of the setup (not the Vortech) just takes a nose dive.

My interpretation of this post is that Sal is saying that if someone moved the placement of the air filter from ESS originally placed it to the back of the supercharger or left it open, then the efficiency would drop. Looking at it from a different prospective, Sal is stating that ESS chose a more suitable location compared to other possibilities. I think the efficiency of the kit that Sal brings up is similar to your claims about controlling heat.

The following quotes from your past posts I believe supports this:

Original Thread Link: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7323770

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

For a supercharger system to make the most power it can it first needs to have access the lowest IAT possible. The best source of cool air is the front of the vehicle away from the heat of the engine bay. The decision to run our air intake system in the location we did was based on function not style. The filter we use is large and when placed correctly draws air in from above, below and in the middle of the drivers side air duct. If the air duct was covered for some reason by a block of snow or a small wild animal the filter would still have access to air. The K&N filter can be exposed to moisture without issue and with the optional water resistant filter wrap there is no need to worry about running the vehicle in regions with a high annual rainfall. We have used this same design on our E46 M3 applications for years with no issues.

Original Thread Link: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7156766

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Our intake system is designed to access air from outside the engine bay. Any attempt to pull air in from the engine bay via open filter or by a filter enclosed in a box behind the blower will almost always result in higher air intake temps as this air has been heated by the engine and the headers located directly below. It is possible to locate an intake in the engine bay but if you have the option to access cooler air direct from the front of the car we feel it is always a better option.

The intake filter has to be large to meet the CFM requirements of the system, this requires exact placement of the filter during installation as space is limited. When placing the filter it is ok to have a portion of it below the air duct as this area is enclosed within the front bumper cover when re-installed. We have been recently working to supply a modified air duct that will allow customers to retain the original. We will continue to modify the design of this part so that DIY installations require less effort.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/Intake-1.jpg

------

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Take the ESS kit and change the charge cooler core a really poor one with a high pressure and high heat rejection - you see the efficiency drop. Less boost and even less HP.

Here, I think Sal is trying say that if someone were to replace the Garret core and OEM Porsche heat exchanger for an even cheaper and poorly made variation, then the efficiency of your kit would go down again. I don't see this as Sal talking poorly of ESS, but more so saying that their decisions to outsource their parts from Garret and OEM Porsche is a sound decision!

------

Overall, what I am trying to say is that the constant attacks that I see in this forum towards any company are really just unnecessary. People should just let the products speak for themselves. What I appreciate a lot about ESS Tuning and Evolve Automotive is that they all try to share factual information when they can. In this specific thread, Evolve Automotive posted very candid information on their own R&D and attempts at trying different blowers. I believe this was probably brought up because of the debate between different blower types. I like how there are many threads posted by respectable members displaying their great performance achievements and data logging! Everyone should let fact, research, and data logging take their own course of interpretation on the forum. No need to add snide comments, insults, or potentially false accusations.

The informative and factual types of posts that make visiting the forums enjoyable and educational. The posts that carry a negative tone of insulting other companies is really unnecessary, unethical, and in no way constructive. There will always be rumors, allegations, and misinformation, but I think the responsibility of Forum Sponsors and Vendors is to lead by positive example. This is the for sake of proper business practice and just pure positive enthusiasm for the car culture.

------

So, what about Albanian Women?

[kchu221]

this thread made my monday and tuesday a whole lot better... and usually nothing can make up my mondays and tuesdays... good read guys!

[Donbona]

Originally Posted by flipm3

Roman, please understand that I have a huge respect for what ESS Tuning has accomplished over the many years, especially recently with the E9X M3 Supercharger Market. There is no denying that your product in the skilled hands of many members here today, have achieved great results in both the form of acceleration time records and reliability. You can ask any of the more active M3Post and ESS Tuning clients, I often times send them PMs, emails, or write in their threads often times congratulating and sharing how impressed I am with the data and results they share.

This post of yours is a bit disappointing though. You just stated that others shouldn't "talk down about other vendors," yet you are doing the same thing. I only quickly read through this long thread, but my understanding is that, Sal@Evolve is trying to show that the Rotrex C38-91 can flow just as well as the Vortech V3Si despite many others saying it can't. My understanding is that he is just trying to share facts based off his own research and data collection on their supercharger kit. It's a simple comparison of different setup and different blower choice, maybe not necessarily an attack against you, AA, VFE, Gintani, or GPower.

Also claiming that Evolve Automotive doesn't do their own R&D or testing is purely ludicrous! Evolve Automotive is one of the very few companies and tuners that I know of that constantly post about their own R&D. They share their data logs, many photos, CAD designs, and dynos. This is consistent not just on Bimmerpost, but on all the other big BMW forums. Time and time again, they present the type of development they do in house. They also share about the companies that they out source to for different pieces of their overhaul product.

I know that you and many automotive enthusiasts speak highly of the ESS product, but seeing unethical and poor-taste posts such as this really does not help carry a proper image of ESS Tuning. If ever, it can leave a bad taste in people's mouths. I hate to say this, but I have heard of people choosing different companies because they were not impressed with how sometimes ESS Tuning would publicly present themselves. I know these are probably only a small sample size compared to your actual client based, but it does happen. Honestly, I am sure it happens to every company in any industry in one way or another. I just assume that as being the public image of a business, it is best to practice in such a way to reduce any such unfortunate situations.

From my outside perspective, I think you may also be misunderstanding what Sal@Evolve was trying to state in Post #309. I read that post several times and I think what he is trying to say is that if someone were to change how ESS Tuning designed their kit, then the efficiency can drop! Which I think you would agree upon. I personally don't see this as an attack towards you or ESS Tuning.

------

My interpretation of this post is that Sal is saying that if someone moved the placement of the air filter from ESS originally placed it to the back of the supercharger or left it open, then the efficiency would drop. Looking at it from a different prospective, Sal is stating that ESS chose a more suitable location compared to other possibilities. I think the efficiency of the kit that Sal brings up is similar to your claims about controlling heat.

The following quotes from your past posts I believe supports this:

Original Thread Link: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7323770


Original Thread Link: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7156766

------

Here, I think Sal is trying say that if someone were to replace the Garret core and OEM Porsche heat exchanger for an even cheaper and poorly made variation, then the efficiency of your kit would go down again. I don't see this as Sal talking poorly of ESS, but more so saying that their decisions to outsource their parts from Garret and OEM Porsche is a sound decision!

------

Overall, what I am trying to say is that the constant attacks that I see in this forum towards any company are really just unnecessary. People should just let the products speak for themselves. What I appreciate a lot about ESS Tuning and Evolve Automotive is that they all try to share factual information when they can. In this specific thread, Evolve Automotive posted very candid information on their own R&D and attempts at trying different blowers. I believe this was probably brought up because of the debate between different blower types. I like how there are many threads posted by respectable members displaying their great performance achievements and data logging! Everyone should let fact, research, and data logging take their own course of interpretation on the forum. No need to add snide comments, insults, or potentially false accusations.

The informative and factual types of posts that make visiting the forums enjoyable and educational. The posts that carry a negative tone of insulting other companies is really unnecessary, unethical, and in no way constructive. There will always be rumors, allegations, and misinformation, but I think the responsibility of Forum Sponsors and Vendors is to lead by positive example. This is the for sake of proper business practice and just pure positive enthusiasm for the car culture.

------

So, what about Albanian Women?

Perfectly said sir!

As for the Albanian women, better ask m33