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      11-05-2012, 04:25 PM   #265
Sal@Evolve
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In that case want mine
Don't be saying that... he will take you up on it!
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      11-05-2012, 04:31 PM   #266
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Lmfao
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      11-05-2012, 04:55 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
There will be plenty of Vishnu single turbo vs ESS SC M3 runs this weekend. I wish there were some AA/Gintani/GPower M3s coming. Sticky is apparently signed up with his built motor Gintani-blown M3 but his car has been down for 2 years so who knows if he will show.
Lol that douche/ poor excuse of a man... Wait he's 26 years old scratch the man part , momma's boy has been with out a car for 3 years not 2 .
So Gintiny blew his motor again ??? Wow.... These people work backwards ! Instead of tuning to maximize performance on a stock motor they build motors to with hold shit tunes ..... Nice !!
God knows how many people they screwed heck they might even be trying to bring a solid product to the table so who knows its never to late to change ...

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Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
Dude, I've been running my M with the GPower for well over 2 years with no issues.... Many runs to Nurburgring and many back to back laps around it and still kept stock temps..... Stuff you can only dream of.
Are you serious ? This is my 3rd M that this kit has been on & not to mention it has accumulated over 120k miles/280k kilometers.
Bro .... Seriously consider more reading and less typing....

I have a question for you .... What's your function ??
Wow haha talk about hostility! Lol. I have no idea what has gone down with this sticky fellow but I can tell you that myself and two other friends have had zero issues with our cars and the Gintani team. I don't want to get off topic or hi-jack a thread or anything but when you put down a group of guys who have been nothing short of stellar in how they have handled business with me then I feel the need to chime in lol. Multiple track days and too many "spirited" runs to count against some very fast cars and I haven't had a hiccup once.
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      11-05-2012, 05:25 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
Don't bring my mother into this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
My function is trafficing Albanian women
Oh shit !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Don't be saying that... he will take you up on it!
Haha

well, im glad that everyone is getting along now
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      11-05-2012, 05:29 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE-FN-MAN View Post
Wow haha talk about hostility! Lol. I have no idea what has gone down with this sticky fellow but I can tell you that myself and two other friends have had zero issues with our cars and the Gintani team. I don't want to get off topic or hi-jack a thread or anything but when you put down a group of guys who have been nothing short of stellar in how they have handled business with me then I feel the need to chime in lol. Multiple track days and too many "spirited" runs to count against some very fast cars and I haven't had a hiccup once.
He's a liar and a crook , why don't you reach out to some previous GINTANI customers and let them school you in that bunch .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Don't be saying that... he will take you up on it!
Shhhh I'm planting seeds , she's gonna take him out !
Albanian style

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Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
Lmfao
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      11-05-2012, 05:31 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by img View Post


Oh shit !


Haha

well, im glad that everyone is getting along now
Superchargers eh... amazing what they do to us!
Bent my mental conrods for sure.

Where is Malaka gone?
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      11-05-2012, 05:32 PM   #271
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ok,

so this should be of interest to many of you:



Doesn't get closer than this does it.
Peak RPM PSi as close as it gets, within 0.1 PSi.

One kit has it's throttles 100% open to the RPM limiter and the other still with the soft cut limiter with the throttles closing (proof lies in the boost spiking up).

Interesting isn't it.

Additional Notes - no the Vortech is not really that weak under 3500rpm, just how the car launches itself on the dyno. Can sometimes give a bit of a skewed effect. Hard to control.
Stock engines. Primary DECATS. 99 Euro Fuel (Shell V Power)
Both have properly cold air induction systems with smooth flow to rear of SC.
Rotrex Tested in 15 DegC Ambient
Vortech 8 DegC Ambient
Correction Factors both extremely close to 1.00
Notice how the peak HP at RPM limiters is almost identical. Why? Max airflow of both blowers extremely similar.

This is a very very close test of what two different kits with two different blowers with equal boost are actually like in comparison.

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 11-05-2012 at 06:30 PM.
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      11-05-2012, 05:32 PM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Superchargers eh... amazing what they do to us!
Bent my mental conrods for sure.

Where is Malaka gone?
SCs get everyone goin pretty well,haha
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      11-05-2012, 05:37 PM   #273
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And just when we thought the little stupid pesky Rotrex could do no more....
Smaller pulley. The boost curve remains the same shape but just goes up everywhere.

7.75 PSi



More Notes:

Yes we are showing flywheel figures. Just look at the delta. Purposefully didn't put up wheel figures because everyone forgets that Dyno Dynamics read a good 13-15% lower than Dynojet.

Correction Factor - 0.997

............. and it has more to come. Just change the pulley again. It gets even more angry.

Can it match a Vortech?

Yes.

Why?

1134 CFM vs 1150CFM. Just got to make sure you use the right pulleys to put that CFM at the engine RPM you want.

Anyone want to see Vortech vs Rotrex on an E39 M5 in the exact same car under almost exact same conditions?

I have loads of data...

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 11-05-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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      11-05-2012, 05:44 PM   #274
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Malaka is here
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      11-05-2012, 05:47 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
ok,

so this should be of interest to many of you:



Doesn't get closer than this does it.
Peak RPM PSi as close as it gets, within 0.1 PSi.

One kit has it's throttles 100% open to the RPM limiter and the other still with the soft cut limiter with the throttles closing (proof lies in the boost spiking up).

Interesting isn't it.

Additional Notes - no the Vortech is not really that weak under 3500rpm, just how the car launches itself on the dyno. Can sometimes give a bit of a skewed effect. Hard to control.
Stock engines. Primary DECATS. 99 Euro Fuel (Shell V Power)
Both have properly cold air induction systems with smooth flow to rear of SC.
Rotrex Tested in 15 DegC Ambient
Vortech 8 DegC Ambient
Correction Factors both extremely close to 1.00

This is a very very close test of what two different kits with two different blowers with equal boost are actually like in comparison.
So both of these are your dyno's? What vortech is this?
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      11-05-2012, 05:52 PM   #276
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M33 I've heard from some of their previous customers thank you very much. As i stated before they have been very professional with all of their business dealings concerning me and those I know. How have they wronged you or are you just going by hearsay? I'm assuming they must have done you a disservice because you seem like an upstanding individual on this Internet forum who would not try to smear or slander a company simple because you have another product or allegiance to friends on here. My apologies to the OP but it seems as if he has made a decision so this shouldn't bother him to much. Congrats by the way!
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      11-05-2012, 06:08 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
So both of these are your dyno's? What vortech is this?
Yes Andrew. These tests are from my dyno. You cannot export data from one DD to another like you can export a DRF on a dynojet.

V3Si.

Now compare the compressor maps of both.

Then look at the above results again.

Then you will see they both marry up almost exactly.

To get the above results from a Rotrex takes a lot of work and a lot of attention to detail. The rest of the hardware has to be optimized and belt slip must be controlled. That.. is where it get's really tricky. The step up ratio of 7.5 on these blowers and the standard crank pulley size of just 120mm makes life very very difficult to avoid belt slip.
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      11-05-2012, 06:59 PM   #278
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Another test of the Rotrex C38-91 vs Vortech V3Si on the same car
Car - BMW E39 M5
Evolve 4-1 Tubular Headers
Evolve High Flow 200 CELL CAT's
Evolve X Pipe and rear exhaust



This is the closest test we could run. The next Rotrex pulley size takes boost to 8 PSi. Did not have Vortech pulley to hand to test so this is as close we could get it.

You can see again, it's very close. You can clearly see if it was possible to take the Rotrex up another 0.5 PSi with a custom pulley the power and boost are matched.

Both blowers are about the same percentage through their max rpm's.
Rotrex is at 81000 / 90000
Vortec is 46000 / 52000

This particular engine setup requires way more airflow to make decent boost. The headers are massive (double in volume of the Supersprint design) and drop the boost levels dramatically as the stock headers are highly restrictive.

Notes:
Vortech was tested with 4 degC ambient temps
Rotrex was tested with 14degC ambient temps
Similar free flowing intake design
Standard Plenum

That's two major platforms now with evidence. If anyone else has proper evidence like this on the same dyno under controlled conditions (we can show this) comparing Vortech vs Rotrex then please post it up rather than make an assumption.

All of this backs up the comparative compressor maps and shows their theory works quite well but can show a variance depending on the type of engine used.

Interesting point to note - boost curves are far more similar in shape on this engine than on S65. Discuss....

I will be able to show results of S54 on both too.

Maybe S85 if I can find the time.

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 11-05-2012 at 07:05 PM.
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      11-05-2012, 07:10 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
And just when we thought the little stupid pesky Rotrex could do no more....
Smaller pulley. The boost curve remains the same shape but just goes up everywhere.

7.75 PSi



More Notes:

Yes we are showing flywheel figures. Just look at the delta. Purposefully didn't put up wheel figures because everyone forgets that Dyno Dynamics read a good 13-15% lower than Dynojet.

Correction Factor - 0.997

............. and it has more to come. Just change the pulley again. It gets even more angry.

Can it match a Vortech?

Yes.

Why?

1134 CFM vs 1150CFM. Just got the make sure you use the right pulleys to put that CFM at the engine RPM you want.

Anyone want to see Vortech vs Rotrex on an E39 M5 in the exact same car under almost exact same conditions?

I have loads of data...


According to your math Sal on the correction difference between your Dyno Dynamics and a Dynojet your customers will see about 600 whp on a Dynojet with your kit as the whp numbers you have posted for your kit on your dyno are around 520. You just posted that a Dynojet will add another 15% to that number. I look forward to these customer independent 600 whp dyno's on Dynojets as that would be very impressive IMO for the Rotrex with only 7.75 psi. According to the dyno below done of the Rotrex C38 by Active you would need 10 psi and water meth to get to around 550 whp on a similar air/air supercharger system. There must be something you are doing that is very different than Active is or your using different math, please keep us posted.

Independent dyno files "one direct from Active" below not a vendor made dyno comparison. Same correction factor used on both, ambient temps 10 degrees lower on the vortech dyno. This is the only independent data that exists until more files are made available.


Blue Vortech V3 @ 8.5 psi Red Rotrex C38 @ 10 psi with water / meth.

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      11-05-2012, 07:21 PM   #280
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I could be wrong but the active run was on a low compression motor that was in beta testing.....
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      11-05-2012, 07:34 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Another test of the Rotrex C38-91 vs Vortech V3Si on the same car
Car - BMW E39 M5

You can see again, it's very close. You can clearly see if it was possible to take the Rotrex up another 0.5 PSi with a custom pulley the power and boost are matched.

Both blowers are about the same percentage through their max rpm's.
Rotrex is at 81000 / 90000
Vortec is 46000 / 52000

That's two major platforms now with evidence. If anyone else has proper evidence like this on the same dyno under controlled conditions (we can show this) comparing Vortech vs Rotrex then please post it up rather than make an assumption.

All of this backs up the comparative compressor maps and shows their theory works quite well but can show a variance depending on the type of engine used.

Discuss....
As you noted above, peak potential CFM on a compressor map does not mean the same power is made on all engines. It may well be that to the 550 rwhp range, the Rotrex and Vortech are pretty similar on the S65, but that does not mean they will necessarily be pretty similar after that. The compressor maps probably are not identical.

AA, for example, gave up on the Rotrex because it could not flow enough on a low compression S65. On the other hand, ESS has run the Vortech to 645 rwhp on a low compression S65.

It may well be that for more efficient stock compression motors making 550 to 600 rwhp, the Rotrex works just as well as the Vortech. We will have to see some dynojet comparisons at some point.

One thing I did not notice from the Rotrex C38-91 dyno comparison to the Vortech is any indication the big Rotrex has any torque advantage over the Vortech. I had been wondering whether the big Rotrex would sacrifice that. But daily drivability cannot be seen on the dyno, which is constant full throttle in one gear. Hopefully, on the road, the Rotrex offers some advantage over the Vortech.
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      11-05-2012, 07:40 PM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMperformance View Post
I could be wrong but the active run was on a low compression motor that was in beta testing.....
For the 4th time... Then again we did make 501 whp (mustang dyno) just by throwing a rotrex on our stock engine car *No tuning changes*. This is exactly the same whp that our low compression car made on our dyno.

Difference: 20 whp more than our hks unit at the same psi and more tq as well.

I'll have some data on how they stack up with a little less boost later on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Here are the numbers: Stock engine- no cats- Dct-93 oct+ meth Dyno jet correct 1.1


Mustang Dyno-
535 @ 11 psi
505 @ 9.5psi
425 @ 6psi

Dyno jet using conversion -
589 @ 11 Psi
556 @ 9.5psi
467 @ 6 psi

Swapped the 20'' wheels for stock and instead of 425 @ 6psi it made 455 whp back to back. We will have to do the same for 9.5 to see if any increase can proven.
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      11-05-2012, 08:22 PM   #283
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Wow @ this thread is right... Too much s/c drama.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Oh, and get your gear calculations right. The stock car revs to 8300rpm in the real world, not 8400rpm. Simple stuff....
Just log a car with a stock RPM limit and you will see what it actually does.
Sal, without going back and re-reading - I'm just trying to clarify your statement about a stock car revving to 8,300 RPM.

Are you saying that stock cars on the road do not exceed 8,300 at the crankshaft?
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      11-05-2012, 08:35 PM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMperformance View Post
I could be wrong but the active run was on a low compression motor that was in beta testing.....
For the 4th time... Then again we did make 501 whp (mustang dyno) just by throwing a rotrex on our stock engine car *No tuning changes*. This is exactly the same whp that our low compression car made on our dyno.

Difference: 20 whp more than our hks unit at the same psi and more tq as well.

I'll have som data on how they stack up with a little less boost later on.


Cool

Hopefully someone can post a Rotrex making the 600 whp Evolve claims on a dynojet. Drew made 600 whp at close to the same boost you had Andrew on your beta low CR motor, he also has a beta low CR motor so thats about as close a comparison as it gets.

BTW Andrew why did you guys stop using Rotrex in your kits and switch to HKS? Did you find that the HKS performed better at lower boost?
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      11-05-2012, 08:38 PM   #285
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lol at guys mentioning heat soak of a front mount from a car on a dyno... Really??
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      11-05-2012, 08:43 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Cool

Hopefully someone can post a Rotrex making the 600 whp Evolve claims on a dynojet. Drew made 600 whp at close to the same boost you had Andrew on your beta low CR motor, he also has a beta low CR motor so thats about as close a comparison as it gets.

BTW Andrew why did you guys stop using Rotrex in your kits and switch to HKS? Did you find that the HKS performed better at lower boost?
We use Rotrex with all of our kits as standard with the Hks being a option if the customer chooses. With the S65 kit I don't believe the 91-92 trim's were easily available at the time.

From what I have seen the Rotrex makes even more hp and tq throughout the graph at lower boost.



Quote:
Originally Posted by m3an View Post
lol at guys mentioning heat soak of a front mount from a car on a dyno... Really??
Yeah I left that one alone..
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