Another Porsche vs. BMW thread with a twist.

[Team Plutonium]

Man, for the last two weeks I've been really contemplating getting the 991.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Man, for the last two weeks I've been really contemplating getting the 991.

I've never been big on Porsche but the new 911 S is tempting to me as well. The sticker price of around $126K for a modestly optioned car is a bit daunting though.

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by gblansten

I've never been big on Porsche but the new 911 S is tempting to me as well. The sticker price of around $126K for a modestly optioned car is a bit daunting though.

Agreed. It would also mean I would have to sell the beast... not sure if I'm ready to do that. But boy is that new 911 impressive!

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

Amazing. Car is an absolute scalpel (still) and anyone who doesnt think so clearly hasnt driven one (or for very long). It IS 9.5/10 as sharp as a GT3 (which makes it pretty much sharper than anything but a GTx model Porsche) and in a straight just as fast, however, you can cleary see on the track the GT3 still has its number.



Agreed. how high the benchmark is in the 991, the GT3 should be something else, and then some. Cant wait to see PDK in this car too.

Well, the 991S in the video is 2.5 seconds slower on the production Pirelli PZero's while the GT3 is on comp tires. I don't know..pretty close to me.

Dave

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Well, the 991S in the video is 2.5 seconds slower on the production Pirelli PZero's while the GT3 is on comp tires. I don't know..pretty close to me.

Dave

True, but on a 1:3X lap, tires are not going to make up 2.5 seconds; maybe .5-1 second. Agreed it is close enough especially considering the 991S is down 35 hp and also weights slightly more. The performance and lap times this car puts up for 400 hp is simply unbelievable no matter what way you slice it and no matter what car you compare it to.

[jordanE92]

Originally Posted by KKM3

If the e92 weighed about 200-300 pounds lighter and had proper seats it would be the perfect car, price aside, almost nothing would touch it. IMO.

Exactly my thoughts, I've done this and the car really is great.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by KKM3

I just traded in my 997.2 carrera s for a 2010 gt3 and still have my m3. I can agree with most of the points made by brosef an alms. The s65 engine is truly one of a kind and if Porsche does make a better double clutch transmission, It's certainly not in the 997 models. The 991 may come close, but still not as responsive and quick as the m3'a dct. There are however a few things that lured me away from bmw to Porsche. Mainly the overall sporty, small, light feel of Pcars. I also really despised the seats in the m3, I could not get it to sit as low as I wanted. I always felt I was sitting on a thrown in the m3 and that really bothered me. If the e92 weighed about 200-300 pounds lighter and had proper seats it would be the perfect car, price aside, almost nothing would touch it. IMO.

Cant agree on the M3 weighing 200-300 lbs less and nothing being able to touch it; and far from that in fact. The M3 GTS IS ~300 lbs lighter, has 30 more hp (not to mention revised DCT, wider wheels, downforce, etc) and still cant touch a BASE GT3 (from 2007 though its much newer) even though its more expensive let alone a 997 mk2 GT3. In fact, the M3 GTS doesnt even have an advantage over a 991S despite a better power to weight ratio, so this theory doesnt compute.
If a Cayman S had a GT3 motor and Porsche motorsport suspension, literally nothing would touch it, especially for the price. We can hope and dream all day about if this car had X power or weighed X less, but in this case we know how the M3 would perform based on the fact that the GTS wasnt/isnt setting any benchmarks in the least bit.

I do agree our cars would be much better with that additional weight removed, but the performance difference wouldnt be anything eye opening.

Just to add, I think dropping 200-300 lbs from our cars would also lose some of the appeal it has a a comfortable GT/sporty car. I have come to really love how this car can be a bit of everything and its extremely comfortable to boot. I think more cars are aiming to be comfortable while retaining sharp characteristics and performing better the way the e9x m3 did.

[positiveions]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Man, for the last two weeks I've been really contemplating getting the 991.

Now you did it. I was trying to burry that idea, and you just exhumed it.

[Raja Ventureshield]

i drove the new 991 and i want one too. Especially the S model is so hot....

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

Cant agree on the M3 weighing 200-300 lbs less and nothing being able to touch it; and far from that in fact. The M3 GTS IS ~300 lbs lighter, has 30 more hp (not to mention revised DCT, wider wheels, downforce, etc) and still cant touch a BASE GT3 (from 2007 though its much newer) even though its more expensive let alone a 997 mk2 GT3. In fact, the M3 GTS doesnt even have an advantage over a 991S despite a better power to weight ratio, so this theory doesnt compute.
If a Cayman S had a GT3 motor and Porsche motorsport suspension, literally nothing would touch it, especially for the price. We can hope and dream all day about if this car had X power or weighed X less, but in this case we know how the M3 would perform based on the fact that the GTS wasnt/isnt setting any benchmarks in the least bit.

I do agree our cars would be much better with that additional weight removed, but the performance difference wouldnt be anything eye opening.

Just to add, I think dropping 200-300 lbs from our cars would also lose some of the appeal it has a a comfortable GT/sporty car. I have come to really love how this car can be a bit of everything and its extremely comfortable to boot. I think more cars are aiming to be comfortable while retaining sharp characteristics and performing better the way the e9x m3 did.

I am speaking in terms of how the car feels not numbers. Porsche has a big advantage with traction and overall size and dimensions, so yeah it would be almost impossible for a front engine rear drive car with so much power to put the power down to the ground as efficiently as Porsche cars do. I am merely stating how amazing the m3 would feel with less weight and better seats.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by KKM3

I am speaking in terms of how the car feels not numbers. Porsche has a big advantage with traction and overall size and dimensions, so yeah it would be almost impossible for a front engine rear drive car with so much power to put the power down to the ground as efficiently as Porsche cars do. I am merely stating how amazing the m3 would feel with less weight and better seats.

Certainly agree (any car will always feel better being lighter) except I kind of like the seats. The seating position really doesnt do the car any justice. I also hate that we didnt get the euro seats with the extra leg bolstering. At least our seats are relatively narrow. Every 458 italia ive been in had the large seats and in corners I slid from side to side in them. Not supportive at all unless youre on the big side.

[alms211]

I like the feel and love the seats in the M3. An M3 is not going to compete with a 911 for the obvious reasons that one is a sportscar and one is a GT. I prefer it that way. I can certainly understand how and why some cross shop these cars but don't expect a 911 to provide you the utility of an M3 and don't expect an M3 to provide you the viseral lightweight sportscar feel of a 911. Ain't going to happen. Pick the one that means most to you but more importantly pick the one that best serves the purpose for what you are going to use it. As a pure weekend fun car, the 911 is almost impossible to beat (factoring in $$$). For a performance oriented DD, there is none better than the M3 for me.

[Dave07997S]

Having owned both, well the 997.1S..the E92 M3 feels much more alive than my 997S did, at least in the engine department, no comparison. The M3 feels much more alive due to the S65 powerplant, while performance numbers are actually pretty similar.

However, if you need to use the back seats for other than transporting small children, thats all they are good for, the M3 is the car for you. If you can afford the cost of a 991S and don't need the back seats no doubt in my mind where I would spend my money. Love the 991S...can't afford it now, also for the fact I need real back seats. When I had my 997S I had a 08 328i to drive around, not anymore.

Haven't had a chance to drive a 991, but the 997.1S bounced around a lot, did not feel as secure and not as easy to go fast in as the E92 M3. Drove a 997.2S and this seemed to be pretty much gone, felt more secure than my 997.1S but still not as secure as the M3. You really have to know how to drive a PCar to take advantage with it, otherwise both the M3 and 997/991 can out drive you any day of the week and it really is a moot point.

I priced out a 991S with just the sport PASM and the $800 sport seats and just under $100k...man thats alot of dough for what amounts to as just an incremental improvement in performance. If I had the money though...very tempting.

Dave

[e92involved]

Hard to compare these too...

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

Certainly agree (any car will always feel better being lighter) except I kind of like the seats. The seating position really doesnt do the car any justice. I also hate that we didnt get the euro seats with the extra leg bolstering. At least our seats are relatively narrow. Every 458 italia ive been in had the large seats and in corners I slid from side to side in them. Not supportive at all unless youre on the big side.

I love the adaptive sport seats in my gt3, wish my m3 had those kinda seats.

[ranger22]

Originally Posted by KKM3

I love the adaptive sport seats in my gt3, wish my m3 had those kinda seats.

Those beeeeeyatches are heavy! I recently went from the sports seats to the GT2 buckets. Holy crap the sports seats are heavy! The adaptive seats are even heavier! Total handling killer!

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by ranger22

Those beeeeeyatches are heavy! I recently went from the sports seats to the GT2 buckets. Holy crap the sports seats are heavy! The adaptive seats are even heavier! Total handling killer!

Got the carbon ceramics to offset the seats.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Having owned both, well the 997.1S..the E92 M3 feels much more alive than my 997S did, at least in the engine department, no comparison. The M3 feels much more alive due to the S65 powerplant, while performance numbers are actually pretty similar.

However, if you need to use the back seats for other than transporting small children, thats all they are good for, the M3 is the car for you. If you can afford the cost of a 991S and don't need the back seats no doubt in my mind where I would spend my money. Love the 991S...can't afford it now, also for the fact I need real back seats. When I had my 997S I had a 08 328i to drive around, not anymore.

Haven't had a chance to drive a 991, but the 997.1S bounced around a lot, did not feel as secure and not as easy to go fast in as the E92 M3. Drove a 997.2S and this seemed to be pretty much gone, felt more secure than my 997.1S but still not as secure as the M3. You really have to know how to drive a PCar to take advantage with it, otherwise both the M3 and 997/991 can out drive you any day of the week and it really is a moot point.

I priced out a 991S with just the sport PASM and the $800 sport seats and just under $100k...man thats alot of dough for what amounts to as just an incremental improvement in performance. If I had the money though...very tempting.

Dave

991 is VERY planted.

I dont see how you call it an incremental increase in performance though.

Ring - M3 8:05, 991S 7:40. The next M3 wont even come close to 7:40.

Trap speed - 991S is 118-119 mph vs 111-112 mph in the M3. 6-8 mph in trap speed is a completely different ballgame. Not even a FBO M3 with DCT will trap that and I doubt the next M3 when it comes in 2 years will be even trapping those speeds...maybe within 2-3 mph though.

ETs - same story...huge difference there.

And generally looking at lap times, the 991S put up times most 500-600 hp cars put down. M3 doesnt come close on any lap time whatsoever on any track.

And from any speed, any gear, any MPH, the 991S will pull away like a freight train.

The performance increase is significant. If you truly think that is only incremental then you'd have to agree that the performance increase from e46 m3 to e92 m3 was only incremental at best since the jump from our M3s to a 991S is bigger than e46 m3 to e92 m3...and we all know that is certainly not the case. And its not the case with the 991S either by any stretch.

Or we could say it this way. A 997 GT3 we can all agree is a BIG step up over our M3s, the 991S performs at nearly the same level on all aspects (yet is less in price than a new GT3 was)...you were even the one to say the 991S on fifth gear paced with the 997.2 GT3 tires considered.

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by positiveions

Now you did it. I was trying to burry that idea, and you just exhumed it.

I'm not gonna even test drive one....

[W///]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

I'm not gonna even test drive one....

How about a 997 Turbo?

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by W///

How about a 997 Turbo?

The turbo never really did anything for me... never really liked the look of it, expect for the 993.

In any case I would need to sell the M3, and that would be pretty tough for me. There is no way I could convince the wife to add another expensive car to the garage.

[positiveions]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

The turbo never really did anything for me... never really liked the look of it, expect for the 993.

I saw one on the way to a 310 Bimmerpost meet last night. It was an old man driving it. Looks so clean from the back.

Though, I like the turbo power, I would rather have the raw power of a normal aspirated motor. If I really want more power, I would get a used GT3.