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      10-31-2012, 12:29 PM   #45
Roman@ESS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex07M3 View Post
Don't make me cry, you'll probably end up with a VT2-600 or something!!
Im good friends with these guys who make really good SC kits so well see
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      10-31-2012, 01:45 PM   #46
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it's personal preference. I like AA kit for the air to air intercooler. It comes down to personal preference; take everyhting you read w/ a grain of salt as it's your car and there are plenty of fanbois on this site. That being said my one gripe on the ESS kit is the air filter is wayyy to low for guys like us in FL who drive through monsoons almost daily. I can't believe a car hasn't been hydrolocked yet... BUT that is also easily overcome as you can just run the air filter up in the engine bay even right off the SC unit,
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      10-31-2012, 02:17 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Good salesmen sell stuff to ignorant customers every day. I don't think the AA kit is much superior. And as noted below, you could have applied the $3000 price difference towards an intercooled ESS kit, but the salesman did not tell you that and you did not bother to do any of your own research.
I did note the differences between the 2 and he is well aware of the differences in modularity.

We are authorized sales distributor and installation facilities for both of those companies in Ontario, as well as VF-engineering and are well aware of the differences between the products as we have them on our own shop cars. What is most important is what are the differences between all the kits? What the differences translate into for the customer. Having all these features are great - what do they do for YOU?

A stage 1 AA kit compared to the 535 kit is superior by having an independent belt system, and charge cooling. As Roman stated, a more fair comparison between the 2 would be a AA stage 1 kit and the ESS 575 kit.

ESS 575:

-Vortech V3Si supercharger unit.
- Vortech bypass valve system
- uni-belt drive system with additional OEM quality rollers.
-K&N high flow air filter.
-High temperature casted plastic intake system for SC
-High capacity liquid intercooler system (VT2 only).
-Cast aluminium ESS intake manifold with integrated velocity stacks optimized for boost.
-ESS oil breather assembly designed for boost.
-2yr./unlimited mileage warranty.
Boost pressure: 6 PSI Intercooled

I personally have not seen it dynoed, but 18% loss of 575hp is 471whp.

AA Stage 1 kit:

HKS GTS8555 Supercharger
AA Blow Off Valves & Bypass Valve
Dedicated Belt Drive System (does not share belt with accessories)
Eight-rib Pulley System
AA Front-mount Air to Air Intercooler
Independent Supercharger Oil Cooler
Cold Air Intake Box
AA Oil Breather System
Two-year unlimited mileage warranty
Boost: ~ 5.5 psi

I have seen a dyno of ~460whp with the old GT8550 blower.

Now what are the differences and what do they mean:

Supercharger unit
The AA/HKS unit has proven to give more midrange power, and better part throttle response. The ESS/Vortech unit is more peaky, and can flow more up top which can translate to more power up high. As noted the AA kit has an independent oil system, which has an oil cooler to regulate temps of this fluid. The ESS kit has an internally oiled S/C unit with no external cooler or lines. Both fluids have a manufacture recommended flush interval and is a simple replacement. The cost difference is in the $100-$200 range depending on source of oil. The added cost is offsetted by the drive characteristics of the blower. If you want better part throttle and mid range, the HKS wins. I have had both blowers, (V3SI) even ASA and powerdyne and have tried them all.

*Keep in mind there are no AA dyno's with the new GT5555 blower on the E9X M3 when compared to ESS.

Drive belt for the blower
There is a difference between these 2. ESS uses a single belt design, which shares your accessories. AA has an independent belt system. So what's the difference? In the event you have an issue with the blower and/or the belt driving it (say a seized blower, failed wood drift key, broken pulley) the car is rendered useless where as having an independent belt system still will let you drive the car home under light loads. There are the odd ones that have over 100 000miles apparently from what I read on this board (how many is on the car?!?!) on their ESS kit with no issues of that kind reported online so the track record is good. It is more of a peace of mind feature.

Piping
ESS has thermoplastic piping where as AA uses aluminium piping. Thermoplastic piping is much more heat resistant compared to the aluminium. Aluminium is the stronger material of the 2. Myself having thermoplastic piping on my E36 M3 S/C for years, I had no issues except for slightly leaking fittings (fixed with teflon tape on the threads - logical).

Charge cooling
AA uses an air to air intercooler system which is a more reliable and less complicated system. You have piping, intercooler and hoses. The routing of the pipes is more complicated and requires cutting of the fan shroud to fit the cooler and S/C oil cooler. The intercooler is also located in front of other heat exchangers, which may hinder the cooling ability of your radiator or A/c condenser.

ESS uses a water to air cooling system which can provide more effective cooling. The system has a cooler in front, and a heat exchanger within the manifold to charge it right before it enters the stacks. This means the coldest air into the stacks. There are water lines and an pump which can make the system more costly to repair in the event of a failed pump. If your charge cooler leaks, and you are stuck - simply drive it at part load and keep the RPMs to a minimum and you can limp it to the shop or home to get it repaired.

Intake system
AA's intake system is located within the engine bay and is in a sealed air box. ESS's intake system routes down towards the bumper. The bumper location can attain colder air, with the hazard of catching anything down low (water, dirt, debris, hurricane sandy debris etc.)
The AA system utilizes the factory ducting through the grills and hood to feed air to the filter.

BOV vs Bypass valve
AA kit utilizes a BOV (blow off valve) system which releases the air to the atmosphere, recognized by a "whoosh" noise. Some may not want a BOV although it is required for smooth on/off throttle transitions.

ESS uses a bypass valve, which recycles the unused air when the throttle bodies close - this system makes no audible noises (it does, but so quiet with your exhaust it cannot be heard).

Between the 2, those are the most pronounced and differentiating points about the 2 kits.

Support for the product - Both companies have outstanding customer support and are dedicated to customer satisfaction.
Software download - U it can be disastrous of the vehicle falls asleep while writing with the user end hardware provided - so we handle the installation of your S/C software for you.

Chris, contact me if you have any questions.


ESSM3...keep in mind, not everyone drives WOT in straight lines. In regards to blowing up motors, I see your position but do not turn this thread into another childish fued of blowing motors when the only people who know the truth aren't posting the fact of it. Your car does not need to be retuned for meth with your kit. The ECU is constantly recalbrating itself as required based on constantly variable conditions on these cars, if we are talking 1995 M3 then I can understand the significance of your post (well, if basically adding fuel and no retune is a significance to you, to others it may not be so enticing). From your display of technical understanding on that one topic I would suggest leaving out the whole blown motor subject. Engineering these systems is not as simple as you may think, let alone the software aspect of it.

Don't take it personal, but your blown motor "fact" without facts does not match the integrity of the target clientele of these cars and products. Also to put it out there BMW has a track record of blown S65 and blown S54...yet you still own one. Think about it.

Last edited by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive; 10-31-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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      10-31-2012, 02:41 PM   #48
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Why do (some people) try to host this thread with their sales skills

Post #49 contains thousand words i can only say Whatever!! No more time to waste.
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      10-31-2012, 02:48 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EssM3 View Post
Why do (some people) try to host this thread with their sales skills

Post #49 contains thousand words i can only say Whatever!! No more time to waste.
back on topic...
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      10-31-2012, 02:48 PM   #50
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Our VT1-535 makes 460-470 whp with ease. The VT2-575 makes 500-510 whp and often more. We actually rate our kits output lower than what they make on average. This is the opposite of most but it's the correct way to do it.
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      10-31-2012, 02:54 PM   #51
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Dude wax your car and be done with it.....
You should be asking yourself ... Self.... What do I want out of a supercharger system ???

Go on searching what people wrote about their Varies kits & and see which company offers what you want ... Bam your done !
Then drive it for a Month or two and do a big write up on it...
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      10-31-2012, 03:25 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive
The AA/HKS unit has proven to
give more midrange power, and better part throttle response. The
ESS/Vortech unit is more peaky, and can flow more up top which can
translate to more power up high...If you want better part throttle
and mid range, the HKS wins.
Jon I'm wondering if this is just opinion or if there's data to
back it up. I think we all want to see data at this point.

Here's what I've seen, and can give you data if interested (it's
been posted before): when we compare equal boost, there's no
comparison; the Vortech makes about the same (maybe a tiny bit
more) wtq and far more whp than the AA/HKS. But when we compare
equal whp, it's true that the HKS makes quite a bit more torque,
but at the cost of 2+ more PSI boost.

You might have seen that we had a recent drag event with both
kits. When you see the results on the drag strip, it's not even a
fair race. The ESS-VT1+meth beats AA/HKS-620+Meth; and the ESS
620 kits walked it.

I guess the only thing left is to compare vBox files to see if the
AA/HKS can out accelerate the Vortech kits in the mid range. I'm
open to the possibility, but so far nobody with an AA kit has been
willing to give up their vBox files to help see if it's fact or
fiction. Jon do you have any vBox files to compare the two? I'll
be happy to give you mine...I've got hundreds you can have.
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      10-31-2012, 03:27 PM   #53
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Damn fukin dead horse. Each kit has its pros and cons. At the end of the day they all make power. One is aftercooled, one intercooled. And obviously each has their own fanbois who rep each one: (just look at the avatars/sigs in this thread).

OP make a decision and I'm sure you won't be upset either way
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      10-31-2012, 03:30 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Jon I'm wondering if this is just opinion or if there's data to
back it up. I think we all want to see data at this point.

Here's what I've seen, and can give you data if interested (it's
been posted before): when we compare equal boost, there's no
comparison; the Vortech makes about the same (maybe a tiny bit
more) wtq and far more whp than the AA/HKS. But when we compare
equal whp, it's true that the HKS makes quite a bit more torque,
but at the cost of 2+ more PSI boost.

You might have seen that we had a recent drag event with both
kits. When you see the results on the drag strip, it's not even a
fair race. The ESS-VT1+meth beats AA/HKS-620+Meth; and the ESS
620 kits walked it.

I guess the only thing left is to compare vBox files to see if the
AA/HKS can out accelerate the Vortech kits in the mid range. I'm
open to the possibility, but so far nobody with an AA kit has been
willing to give up their vBox files to help see if it's fact or
fiction. Jon do you have any vBox files to compare the two? I'll
be happy to give you mine...I've got hundreds you can have.
The 535 kit that he ran away from in the video?

He doesn't have slicks and he didn't launch what did you expect to happen at a 1/4 mile event?

Level 1 mustang dyno: This car will make 480-490 whp all day on a dynojet.
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      10-31-2012, 04:02 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Jon I'm wondering if this is just opinion or if there's data to
back it up. I think we all want to see data at this point.

Here's what I've seen, and can give you data if interested (it's
been posted before): when we compare equal boost, there's no
comparison; the Vortech makes about the same (maybe a tiny bit
more) wtq and far more whp than the AA/HKS. But when we compare
equal whp, it's true that the HKS makes quite a bit more torque,
but at the cost of 2+ more PSI boost.

You might have seen that we had a recent drag event with both
kits. When you see the results on the drag strip, it's not even a
fair race. The ESS-VT1+meth beats AA/HKS-620+Meth; and the ESS
620 kits walked it.
Drag racing won't show the daily driving torque gains because drag racing rpm are above the daily driving rpm. It is not a massive torque gain, anyway, and as you note, more boost is required to make it because the HKS is a smaller, faster spinning impeller (which also means it peters out a little earlier).
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      10-31-2012, 04:11 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
The 535 kit that he ran away from in the video?

He doesn't have slicks and he didn't launch what did you expect to happen at a 1/4 mile event?

Level 1 mustang dyno: This car will make 480-490 whp all day on a dynojet.

Andrew, as I said, I'm open to the possibility but enough of the dyno racing and let's use real results. Remember I had street tires too and on my record run I even turned off my meth. LC won't make any difference on trap speed and that's what I'm
talking about anyways. But if there was a wtq advantage, his ET would have been equal or better than mine instead of a second slower.

Do you have any vBox files you're willing to share? I'll give you mine and can probably get you files from a dozen different cars if I ask nice.
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      10-31-2012, 04:25 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Andrew, as I said, I'm open to the possibility but enough of the dyno racing and let's use real results. Remember I had street tires too and on my record run I even turned off my meth. LC won't make any difference on trap speed and that's what I'm
talking about anyways. But if there was a wtq advantage, his ET would have been equal or better than mine instead of a second slower.

Do you have any vBox files you're willing to share? I'll give you mine and can probably get you files from a dozen different cars if I ask nice.
M33,

I'm sorry if you misunderstood. The dyno graph wasn't for you it was just to show the potential customer what the level 1 graph looks like compared to stock and fbo.

We tried to get a vbox of the built engine car but it wouldn't hook with the low profile tires in 3rd. Ill try and get some vbox results for you on our level 2 soon. I believe that information is key to this discussion.
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      10-31-2012, 04:35 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Jon I'm wondering if this is just opinion or if there's data to
back it up. I think we all want to see data at this point.

Here's what I've seen, and can give you data if interested (it's
been posted before): when we compare equal boost, there's no
comparison; the Vortech makes about the same (maybe a tiny bit
more) wtq and far more whp than the AA/HKS. But when we compare
equal whp, it's true that the HKS makes quite a bit more torque,
but at the cost of 2+ more PSI boost.

You might have seen that we had a recent drag event with both
kits. When you see the results on the drag strip, it's not even a
fair race. The ESS-VT1+meth beats AA/HKS-620+Meth; and the ESS
620 kits walked it.

I guess the only thing left is to compare vBox files to see if the
AA/HKS can out accelerate the Vortech kits in the mid range. I'm
open to the possibility, but so far nobody with an AA kit has been
willing to give up their vBox files to help see if it's fact or
fiction. Jon do you have any vBox files to compare the two? I'll
be happy to give you mine...I've got hundreds you can have.
It is an opinion from having personal experience. Having a vortech supercharger on our S52, and a HKS charger on our S52. We have an ESS VT2-650 kit on our E60 M5 and is a great kit. Now comparing the Vortech to HKS, We have a customer with a Dinan S/C kit and a level 1 HKS E46 M3. The HKS at part throttle is like a turbo system, even on AA's Prima system. Where the HKS shines is PART THROTTLE loads. Again, I am not posting dyno data, dyno runs, Vbox runs because they are all wide open loads in which the conditions do reflect part throttle driving in the city in which most customers daily drive their car. I did not find the same similar feeling with my vortech configured vehicles. Do not take it wrong, the vortech is in no way an inferior product. Your right on the differences on the PSI and flow, because if you have a larger area it is less PSI to flow 1000cfm than to flow 1000cfm in a smaller area is more PSI. That just means yes, the smaller blower can translate into earlier power delivery - which for people who want that, can get it. Which has more potential? The bigger blower - being the ESS/Vortech unit for those who want to keep up with DLSJ5 and IMG.

I did see the drag times, and all the ESS cars came out on top! Mind you, the AA car is running pilot super sports compared to R888's from my recollection (correct me if I'm wrong). There was also a video and from what I saw was 535 kit with pulley and meth got walked by an AA stage 2. The 535 kit with meth and pulley then walked on a VT2-600 kit. Contradicting?

It is also a known fact that ESS has a track record of 0 blown engines, as well as the highest output M3..and I believe may be the first that is still pushed daily on the street.

Unfortunately I do not have vbox files. Our law in Ontario here is that if your 50km over, it will cost you your S/C kit in fines and possibly crushed vehicles like the C6 Z06 and Pcar turbo they made examples of. So getting these types of tests done is somewhat hard unless we head to the boonies, and that is not so often with our performance cars. I will try to get some data when I can for the cause, for sure.

....maybe we should have done this at a strip near Bimmerfest East 2012! (you have a nice ride btw)

Chris, we have both kits on the E90 M3 in Toronto. Meet up with the owners and see which one you like better, but the kits on these cars are both higher levels than what your interested in - although I do not see that as a problem.

If you need help with meetings I can arrange that for you, although with our winter right around the corner it may be hard to do and if you - we have to get traction at almost 5degrees celcius.

M33, It all can go back and forth. The only way to tell you which is better is have a run with both on the highway. Matter of fact, meet at a gas station almost on an empty tank *video shot*, fill up with 93 octane to prove no mix of E85 or race fuel and finally a run on the highway. That way there's no complaints. Sadly because Akash is the only one stepping up, there is only dyno racing or dyno database references, vbox runs to tell you which is faster. It reminds me of that Nitto racing game online years back. I do not blame anyone as on a legal point of view, it's risky stuff all for a video on the net to most.

For the OP, like mentioned - get a ride in both, and if you need help seeing them in person I will get in contact with them for you if needed. Make your decision on which one you like better based on that drive. I will leave my input at that, and let the rest sort itself out.


Also most importantly to those looking at kits in the Ontario region. Verify that you are buying your product from an AUTHORIZED dealer in your area, it is the ONLY way to receive the product support your entitled to and warranty. I have been getting many price matches from inquiring customers, so please check what your getting into before purchasing. We are ESS and AA's only Authorized installer and reseller in the Ontario as a Canadian based company.

Last edited by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive; 10-31-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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      10-31-2012, 06:08 PM   #59
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I've called out the competition numerous amount of times as I to would love to run on
The open road , btw the track is a fair comparison just goto my
Thread and look for my worst runs on the chart and compare to the AA stage2+ kit ... Also match up the 60' ft's as long as the 60's car close you will get a broad idea on how they stack up .
My fuel didn't do any justic considering I was at par with Sal's 650 @ autoCouture.

Btw good logical overall response !
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      10-31-2012, 07:31 PM   #60
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Keep it stock ...enjoy the N/A character of the car. the way it was meant to be..what the heck are you going to do with 600HP anyways?

Car is already plenty powerful..lots of other areas to focus on moding wise, making the car lighter for one
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      10-31-2012, 07:44 PM   #61
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Keep it stock ...enjoy the N/A character of the car. the way it was meant to be..what the heck are you going to do with 600HP anyways?

Car is already plenty powerful..lots of other areas to focus on moding wise, making the car lighter for one
I respect your opinion. For me, I honestly enjoy the extra passing power on the track.
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      11-01-2012, 04:21 AM   #62
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I am another VT-1 535 very happy owner! I have about 7,000 miles on mine over the past two years (I only drive it in the summer months).

I got it because I was losing a bit of passion for the car in stock form. It was fun to drive, but I wanted more power. The option for me was to supercharge it, or replace the car with something new. Adding the supercharger has me once again thrilled with the car! It really adds a significant amount of additional power, and it does not change the daily drivability of the car.

I went with ESS because it seemed clear they had the most users by almost a 10 to 1 ratio over the others. Also, I had never seen a single issue or complaint regarding their products. My own experience with them has also been exceptional!
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      11-01-2012, 06:27 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpohlman View Post
I am another VT-1 535 very happy owner! I have about 7,000 miles on mine over the past two years (I only drive it in the summer months).

I got it because I was losing a bit of passion for the car in stock form. It was fun to drive, but I wanted more power. The option for me was to supercharge it, or replace the car with something new. Adding the supercharger has me once again thrilled with the car! It really adds a significant amount of additional power, and it does not change the daily drivability of the car.

I went with ESS because it seemed clear they had the most users by almost a 10 to 1 ratio over the others. Also, I had never seen a single issue or complaint regarding their products. My own experience with them has also been exceptional!
Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks to Andrew from AA and Roman from Ess for their feedback. Surprisingly only Roman contacted me with tons of new technical specs and ideas and corresponded via email for the last few days. I thank him for that Level of support. Additionally. Thanks to all -except essm3.
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      11-01-2012, 06:55 AM   #64
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Agree. The entire point of a forum is to talk, ask questions, exchange ideas and input and leverage other members expertise. Fuktards with sarcasm just make the process less fun and newbs less willing to ask questions and seek help. If you don't want to help then sit down and STFU. Thanks! And happy (late) Halloween from afghanistan

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Why not give him some constructive criticism instead of mocking?
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      11-01-2012, 07:22 AM   #65
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Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks to Andrew from AA and Roman from Ess for their feedback. Surprisingly only Roman contacted me with tons of new technical specs and ideas and corresponded via email for the last few days. I thank him for that Level of support. Additionally. Thanks to all -except essm3.
Pleasure

I didnt Laugh at what you said BTW. I actualy did at what you was told.
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      11-01-2012, 07:30 AM   #66
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Agree. The entire point of a forum is to talk, ask questions, exchange ideas and input and leverage other members expertise. Fuktards with sarcasm just make the process less fun and newbs less willing to ask questions and seek help. If you don't want to help then sit down and STFU. Thanks! And happy (late) Halloween from afghanistan
You should STFU your not here to teach me what the forum was created for.
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