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      10-29-2012, 09:16 AM   #133
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//M is headed in the wrong direction. It's all about marketing nowadays...
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      10-29-2012, 09:25 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by serge View Post
//M is headed in the wrong direction. It's all about marketing nowadays...
+1


This special edition crap is getting old.
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      10-29-2012, 09:56 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
What dummies...?

Do you really think the resale on an outdated GASOLINE engine car, 5 years from now is going to be worth something..?

Do you think PAINT holds value..?



Plus, an 8 cylinder M3 in 2020 will be worth $25k... because gas is $6/gallon...
Without going into the dummies discussion, I'll try to address your comments.

Yes, 5 years from now the automotive landscape will be very similar to today's, with the vast majority of cars still being gasoline powered. What do you think you'll be driving, an I8? A flux capacitor AMG?

The value of the V8 M3 will depend on many factors: cachet factor among less heeled buyers, mystique of owning "the last normally aspirated M car", track development potential and aftermarket options, reliability record of the car, etc. 5 years from now the cars tend to fall into the hands of enthusiasts who couldn't afford them new, and for this demographic the fuel consumption is irrelevant. Color and options will be more important than fuel economy.

10 years from now it will be more of the same, except by that time it tends to crystallize in 2 different directions: track rats and garage queens. It's around that timeframe that colors, options, number of miles and maintenance schedule become of utmost importance for the garage queens.

And ultimately, the most important factor in the collectibility status of any car is production numbers. This will always conspire against the E9x M3 of course, but because of that, niche models like the limited editions (any of them) will hold their value much better than any of the regular cars. It's a simple fact that has been proven over and over with many different makes and models, and it doesn't really matter if you believe it or not - the market won't care.

Paint affects resale value for older cars and collectible cars, just like it affects new cars. It's the first thing you see on the car, and it makes the most impact.
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      10-29-2012, 11:41 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Without going into the dummies discussion, I'll try to address your comments.

Yes, 5 years from now the automotive landscape will be very similar to today's, with the vast majority of cars still being gasoline powered. What do you think you'll be driving, an I8? A flux capacitor AMG?

The value of the V8 M3 will depend on many factors: cachet factor among less heeled buyers, mystique of owning "the last normally aspirated M car", track development potential and aftermarket options, reliability record of the car, etc. 5 years from now the cars tend to fall into the hands of enthusiasts who couldn't afford them new, and for this demographic the fuel consumption is irrelevant. Color and options will be more important than fuel economy.

10 years from now it will be more of the same, except by that time it tends to crystallize in 2 different directions: track rats and garage queens. It's around that timeframe that colors, options, number of miles and maintenance schedule become of utmost importance for the garage queens.

And ultimately, the most important factor in the collectibility status of any car is production numbers. This will always conspire against the E9x M3 of course, but because of that, niche models like the limited editions (any of them) will hold their value much better than any of the regular cars. It's a simple fact that has been proven over and over with many different makes and models, and it doesn't really matter if you believe it or not - the market won't care.

Paint affects resale value for older cars and collectible cars, just like it affects new cars. It's the first thing you see on the car, and it makes the most impact.
I agree with most of what you're saying. But I'll toss on a different perspective.

I'll prefix this with the fact I am going off of personally collected data, not industry numbers.

When it comes to the M3, there are very few that are bought as future "garage queens". As you mentioned, all generations have too high a production number to really attain "sought after collectible status" quickly. You have to wait for age/time to basically twindle down the number of samples on the market to reach this threshold.

The E30 M3 has pretty much attained this status.

The E36 M3 is still looked at as the "perfect beginner track car". A few people buy them for daily drivers and there are probably a few people that are still sitting on a pristine example waiting for time to be on their side. But for the most part, people buy these car, gut them and track them.

The E46 is beginning its conversion to sought after track car. But it is still sitting in the "easily attainable daily driver/weekend canyon run" car. This makes it very susceptible to market pricing.

The E9X is just starting it transition to "sought after" daily driver for the masses. You have 2008/2009 leases hitting (or already on the market) and next year you'll start seeing some 2010's showing up (and the next year quite a bit more as people start positioning themselves for the Next Gen M3).

If you look at history, you're looking at another 10-15 years before "pristine" E9X M3's starts to benefit in used pricing. And for these frozen colors, their benefit is going to greatly depend on how easy it is to take care of the paint once it's 5+ years old. If it proves to be similar to regular paint (easy daily/weekly upkeep and many a full detail once or twice a year) then they will attain some value. But if they aren't easy to damage (due to a variety of things in the environment) it'll be looked as a failed experiment (and failed experiements on the used car market plummet in value since that's just one more headache the new owner will have to account for).

Last edited by shaq diesel; 10-29-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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      10-29-2012, 01:43 PM   #137
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Beautiful colors. i might have to take the frozen red :O
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      10-29-2012, 01:47 PM   #138
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I think BMW needs to learn the definition of "limited"...
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      10-29-2012, 02:22 PM   #139
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I haven't read through the whole thread, so maybe this was already answered: Are the pictures of the actual U.S. version, or a Euro variation? I see Euro seat bolsters, Euro front bumper, and front PDC, so this doesn't look like the U.S. version.
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      10-29-2012, 02:42 PM   #140
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^^What is posted is basically the same pics we got from BMW. So I would assume that the car will come as shown in the pics.

however like you said it could be stock photos from the Euro release. We are going to try and get one for the store. If we are successful ill def post detail pics of inside and out
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      10-29-2012, 03:01 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascari View Post
It's getting so that the standard spec M3 is rarer than the limited editions...
+1111

"Special edition" Spamming
The 92 has been turned over to the marketing vultures and it ain't pretty..
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      10-29-2012, 07:47 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaq diesel View Post
I agree with most of what you're saying. But I'll toss on a different perspective.

I'll prefix this with the fact I am going off of personally collected data, not industry numbers.

When it comes to the M3, there are very few that are bought as future "garage queens". As you mentioned, all generations have too high a production number to really attain "sought after collectible status" quickly. You have to wait for age/time to basically twindle down the number of samples on the market to reach this threshold.

The E30 M3 has pretty much attained this status.

The E36 M3 is still looked at as the "perfect beginner track car". A few people buy them for daily drivers and there are probably a few people that are still sitting on a pristine example waiting for time to be on their side. But for the most part, people buy these car, gut them and track them.

The E46 is beginning its conversion to sought after track car. But it is still sitting in the "easily attainable daily driver/weekend canyon run" car. This makes it very susceptible to market pricing.

The E9X is just starting it transition to "sought after" daily driver for the masses. You have 2008/2009 leases hitting (or already on the market) and next year you'll start seeing some 2010's showing up (and the next year quite a bit more as people start positioning themselves for the Next Gen M3).

If you look at history, you're looking at another 10-15 years before "pristine" E9X M3's starts to benefit in used pricing. And for these frozen colors, their benefit is going to greatly depend on how easy it is to take care of the paint once it's 5+ years old. If it proves to be similar to regular paint (easy daily/weekly upkeep and many a full detail once or twice a year) then they will attain some value. But if they aren't easy to damage (due to a variety of things in the environment) it'll be looked as a failed experiment (and failed experiements on the used car market plummet in value since that's just one more headache the new owner will have to account for).
The only collectible E36 M3 in the US is the 95 LTW, and again it's because of tiny numbers. 150 built i think. Some languished in the showroom for years before being sold at huge discunts, but that is another story. No other E36 will attain similar values as the E30, simply because more were made, and are available. The E46 faces a similar problem, although they may always be more expensive than the E36 due to the more exciting engine.

Look at the only other BMW's that have increased in value recently: S54 Z3M roadster and coupe, 1M coupe, that's about it. And what do they have in common?

If I were in the market for a new M3, I'd get the blue frozen edition and sail off into the sunset.
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      10-29-2012, 08:42 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
The only collectible E36 M3 in the US is the 95 LTW, and again it's because of tiny numbers. 150 built i think. Some languished in the showroom for years before being sold at huge discunts, but that is another story. No other E36 will attain similar values as the E30, simply because more were made, and are available. The E46 faces a similar problem, although they may always be more expensive than the E36 due to the more exciting engine.

Look at the only other BMW's that have increased in value recently: S54 Z3M roadster and coupe, 1M coupe, that's about it. And what do they have in common?

If I were in the market for a new M3, I'd get the blue frozen edition and sail off into the sunset.
not every small volume car is collectible. the E30 M3 had one of the best racing pedigrees of any car ever built. it also arguably put the M division into the collective car enthusiast consciousness. the E36 LTW has less of a pedigree, but it offered significantly better performance in limited quantity (ditto the 1M, E46 CSL and the E92 GTS).

what do these editions offer besides a nameplate and some specific BMW Individual speccing?
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      10-29-2012, 10:05 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HREM3
I'd actually trade my current M3 for another M3 if I was able to order a sedan new again.
Yep! Me, too. I'd buy a 2013 e90 M3
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      10-30-2012, 12:56 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
what do these editions offer besides a nameplate and some specific BMW Individual speccing?
in one word, rarity. What makes a "limited edition" well, limited?? BMW didn't claim any performance improvement so it's not really like they are cheating the customer.

The LTW had precisely zero pedigree, wasn't really even faster than the regular car. And the S54 Z3M and 1M have the same null pedigree, yet fetch nice premiums. My Limited Edition Miata fetches 50-100% more than a regular car of similar vintage, all because of a unique color combination and trim bits.

There really is just one connecting thread between all these cars...


You can chose to ignore it or not. But IMO its there.
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      10-30-2012, 01:53 AM   #146
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nice!
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      10-30-2012, 03:27 PM   #147
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      10-30-2012, 03:42 PM   #148
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A company that tries to give its clients some variety and individuality, and people( that claim they are BMW enthusiasts ) slam them. What a world. A special car for a small premium, good on ya BMW.
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      10-30-2012, 11:10 PM   #149
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I like the frost colors
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      10-31-2012, 08:35 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M View Post
.a 7 year old M3 that gets 17mpg, no matter what color.. will have equal appeal in 2020..!

So, no matter how spectacular a frozen limited addition is..? Does any of it's glory help loose some of it's 3,700lbs..? Or is it just superficial nonsense..? Or is it just //Marketing..?

Secondly.. Dude, the world is changing, having a car collection means nothing when hurricans, earthquakes, or mother nature has.?
Dude, they've had hurricanes for billions of years on mother planet, and they have been with us humans since before we've been calling us humans. Their effects may be more unpredictable in the future, or their geographical distribution may change and some regions will be favored where others will be hard hit, but the world will still exist as we know it in 2020. This is a very simplistic world view you're painting there.

All I can tell you is, in 2020 in the USA, the gasoline engine will still be king. Of course the engines will become more efficient, and gas more expensive, and hybrids more prevalent.

Whatever, for a young enthusiast wanting to experience the thrills of a racetrack, buying a legendary used car will still be the most appealing alternative. For these guys, all that matters is the budget to purchase and get the car track ready.

Few of these old cars will continue as daily drivers. Most will be weekend toys, where no one cars about anything except the entertainment value. Why do you think the muscle cars from the 60s and 70s made such a huge comeback, despite huge inherent flaws: bad mileage, bad handling, bad build quality.
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      10-31-2012, 03:00 PM   #151
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Honestly,
Have you guys seen a frozen color that is dirty or not under direct lighting, such as at night time? They look horrible.

The only good frozen color in my opinion is black.

Plus, M at BMW was always focused on "stuff" under the hood. Give me a lightweight, more HP, a real GTS and I pay. But, a paint job and contrast stitching at overpriced value is nothing to write home about. They are just trying to "milk" it, drop by drop (wrong approach BMW bean counters!).
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      10-31-2012, 03:35 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdrei View Post
Honestly,
Have you guys seen a frozen color that is dirty or not under direct lighting, such as at night time? They look horrible.
Really? I accept your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you. The way that shadows and lowlights play off mine is gorgeous. In fact, I prefer it to the color in direct sunlight.

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      10-31-2012, 04:04 PM   #153
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LAMO

Give us a break BMWNA....anyone who pays up for this pretty car is a fool...I'm insulted that they have even offered these cars for sale.

I'm mean "com on man" put a BBK or something on these things to make them special...or maybe euro MDM or some other performance bone!

REALLY DISAPPOINTING!
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      10-31-2012, 04:32 PM   #154
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Can't wait to see what the dealer markup will be on top the $16k premium, although I like the white and blue the "Frozen" editions are not even close to being worth the money.

Waiting for the M4.
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