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      11-25-2011, 02:15 AM   #45
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      11-25-2011, 03:49 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I would be surprised to find any difference. Is it not true that the M3 like Audi offer a winter alloy/tyre option and in the case of the S5 the option is an inch smaller rim size. Unless the offset is different then I can't see any problem.
BMW _does_ offer an M3 winter tire/alloy combination, at least in Europe. I just ordered and got a set installed, it's ordered as a complete set and comes mounted with Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3's.
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      10-27-2012, 09:09 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
However, BMW itself states that the 18s are faster on a road course track.
Where did BMW state that?

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Originally Posted by RIZZAT View Post
The 18's that come on the car are the wheels that are supposed to be on it. The car was revealed with with these wheels and thats what BMW deemed the correct wheel size for the performance of the vehicle. 19's are an OPTION for looks not performance. This is a rce car, when was the last time you saw a race car with dubs on it???
Hmm... So maybe we will go back to the '70 and put 13 or 14 inch wheels on our BMW's? And maybe, just maybe someone tell BMW, that is wrong to put 20 inch wheels on M5? And they will be mistaken, when new M3 will come with 19 inch wheels as a standard equipment?

I remember driving 316i on 13 inch wheels. It was great car then, no doubt, especially comparing to my everyday vehicle, Fiat 125P (also on 13 inch rims). But anyone who says that M3 will handle better and go faster on 18 instead of 19, in my opinion, doesn't know what is talking about.

Comfort? Ride? Yes! 13 inch wheels and bias tires will give you even more comfort. But nobody goes anywhere fast on comfortable tires, and nobody buys M3 to have comfortable ride. For those folks BMW makes 335i and other, lesser models.

If for someone M3 ride on 19 inch rims is to harsh, may I suggest Citroen DSS21? Or your father's Oldsmobile?
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      10-27-2012, 11:07 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by knifegun View Post
I have a Graphite Metallic M3 sedan with the 18" OEM wheels. I really like the stealth look it gives the car. I have noticed that almost all videos and all people on this forum have the 19" wheels. I definitely like them and wish that my car would have come with them (bought it off the lot).

My question is what is the difference in performance between the two? I have heard that the 19"s are heavier than the 18"s. But of course, the 19"s will be harsher as they have less rubber. But that is not always the best when you track the car. Any thoughts?
The only reason to get 19's are for looks. 18" wheels/tires will weigh less, cost less, give a better ride. The M3 should have come with 18x9.5 front and 18x10.5" rear with 265/35/18 front and 285/35/18 rear tires. You can get this exact set-up in the proper offsets using Apex wheels. I have driven this set-up and it is better in every way possible when it comes to performance and ride. There is an optimal tire sidewall height and for the M3, it is with 18" tires. Going to a bigger tire with shorter sidewall beyond this point does nothing for the handling. In fact, the whole trend towards bigger wheels was really to accommodate larger brakes, but then the trend took on a life of its own. Obviously, if you go too small, you lose responsiveness also, but certainly not with 18".
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      10-27-2012, 11:39 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
The only reason to get 19's are for looks.[...] There is an optimal tire sidewall height and for the M3, it is with 18" tires. Going to a bigger tire with shorter sidewall beyond this point does nothing for the handling. ...
Can you prove it, or it is just your opinion?

I bet F30 M3 will not even have 18-inch wheels. Standard wheels will have 19 inch rims, with 20 inch optional. Can you tell me why?
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      10-27-2012, 02:01 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by polonus View Post
Can you prove it, or it is just your opinion?

I bet F30 M3 will not even have 18-inch wheels. Standard wheels will have 19 inch rims, with 20 inch optional. Can you tell me why?
There is tons written on this all over the web. Just do a good search. 19's and 20's are offered because that is what sells, not what is best in terms of ride and performance. Go drive an M3 with the set-up I mentioned in my original post and judge for yourself. I did. Big difference.
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      10-27-2012, 03:10 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
19's and 20's are offered because that is what sells, not what is best in terms of ride and performance.
Sure. That's why cars like Bugatti (21" in rear!), Audi R8, all Ferraris and Lamborghinis, Corvette ZR1 and many others high performance cars use 19 and 20 inch rims. Just for looks, compromising performance.

Of course you can buy "regular" Corvette with 18 inch rims, but no ZR1. ZR1 is "good looking" model, for performance go with C6 Coupe on 18 inch wheels.

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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
Go drive an M3 with the set-up I mentioned in my original post and judge for yourself. I did. Big difference.
I did too. And that is why I say you have no idea what you are talking about. You right - big difference. 18 inch tires are "comfy" - or, to be precise, little more comfortable on potholes then 19 inch tires. Better ride? Sure. Better performance? In your dreams.

Either you didn't drive back to back M3 with 18 and 19 inch wheels, or you didn't pay any attention. There is a good reason why you cannot buy any Ferrari or Lamborghini on 18 inch wheels and it is not looks.

And I'm not saying, that 18 inch wheels cannot perform extremely well, but when you compare tires 265/40-18 to 265/35-19 there is no way car will handle better on tires with smaller rim, taller sides. Difference may be small, but always that difference will be for 19 inch tire advantage.

...Unless, of course, ride quality is your goal. In that case I suggest you to buy a Buick.
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      10-28-2012, 06:04 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by polonus View Post
Sure. That's why cars like Bugatti (21" in rear!), Audi R8, all Ferraris and Lamborghinis, Corvette ZR1 and many others high performance cars use 19 and 20 inch rims. Just for looks, compromising performance.

Of course you can buy "regular" Corvette with 18 inch rims, but no ZR1. ZR1 is "good looking" model, for performance go with C6 Coupe on 18 inch wheels.



I did too. And that is why I say you have no idea what you are talking about. You right - big difference. 18 inch tires are "comfy" - or, to be precise, little more comfortable on potholes then 19 inch tires. Better ride? Sure. Better performance? In your dreams.

Either you didn't drive back to back M3 with 18 and 19 inch wheels, or you didn't pay any attention. There is a good reason why you cannot buy any Ferrari or Lamborghini on 18 inch wheels and it is not looks.

And I'm not saying, that 18 inch wheels cannot perform extremely well, but when you compare tires 265/40-18 to 265/35-19 there is no way car will handle better on tires with smaller rim, taller sides. Difference may be small, but always that difference will be for 19 inch tire advantage.

...Unless, of course, ride quality is your goal. In that case I suggest you to buy a Buick.
Certain cars require larger wheels to clear large brake discs and calipers. In fact, this is how the whole large wheel trend started. Then the fad took on a life of its own. And yes, beyond a certain point, larger wheels are just for looks. And yes, even the exotic car makers will use them because this is what sells. They are in the business, after all, of selling cars.

You also can't really compare between different cars. A given car with its OEM spec tire on a 20" wheel may, in fact, have the same sidewall height as different car on an 18" wheel. A 295/30 for example has the same sidewall height whether it is on an 18", 19" or 20" wheel. This is not what we are referring to here. We are referring here to increasing the wheel size, and simultaneously decreasing the tire aspect ratio on a given car to maintain OEM rolling diameter.

On other larger cars, you just need a larger wheel to aesthetically balance the look, however, this, again, is not related to performance. They also don't necessarily decrease the tire's aspect ratio. They just use a larger tire with the same aspect ratio on the larger wheel. When a tire sidewall is too large, responsiveness will be diminished, but going to a shorter sidewall only goes so far. So while 16" or 17" is clearly leaves you with too much sidewall on an M3 (if they would even clear the brakes), 18" does not.

Look at most track set-ups on the M3. They all run 18's. If 19's are so superior in terms of performance, why do most serious track set ups use 18? By your argument, 20" is even better than 19". How many 20" track set ups do you see? Why don't you see professional race cars using the largest wheels possible?
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Last edited by LarThaL; 10-28-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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      10-28-2012, 02:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
A given car with its OEM spec tire on a 20" wheel may, in fact, have the same sidewall height as different car on an 18" wheel. A 295/30 for example has the same sidewall height whether it is on an 18", 19" or 20" wheel. This is not what we are referring to here. We are referring here to increasing the wheel size, and simultaneously decreasing the tire aspect ratio on a given car to maintain OEM rolling diameter.
Exactly. And that is why BMW M3 on larger wheels always will be faster and sharper, but less comfy

Quote:
Look at most track set-ups on the M3. They all run 18's. If 19's are so superior in terms of performance, why do most serious track set ups use 18? By your argument, 20" is even better than 19". How many 20" track set ups do you see? Why don't you see professional race cars using the largest wheels possible?
Size of the wheels on race vehicles are determined by rules and regulations. For example F1 uses 13" wheels, not because 13 inch wheels are better then 18, or 20, but because that is the law.
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      10-28-2012, 03:12 PM   #54
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Exactly. And that is why BMW M3 on larger wheels always will be faster and sharper, but less comfy



Size of the wheels on race vehicles are determined by rules and regulations. For example F1 uses 13" wheels, not because 13 inch wheels are better then 18, or 20, but because that is the law.

You are still not completely getting my point, but I'm done with this.
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      10-28-2012, 04:51 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
You are still not completely getting my point, but I'm done with this.
I'm getting your point, I just completely disagree with it. "Arguments" like "look at most track set-ups on the M3", or "there is tons written on this all over the web" hardly proof anything.
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      10-28-2012, 05:40 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
You are still not completely getting my point, but I'm done with this.
+1, you are absolutely correct. larger is not faster or sharper. simultaneously decreasing the sidewall and increasing rim diameter beyond 18" on an m3 reduces compliance and mostly increases unsprung weight due to metal normally weighing more than air/nitrogen
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      10-28-2012, 07:58 PM   #57
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+1, you are absolutely correct. larger is not faster or sharper. simultaneously decreasing the sidewall and increasing rim diameter beyond 18" on an m3 reduces compliance and mostly increases unsprung weight due to metal normally weighing more than air/nitrogen
Check it out......

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...d-tires-tested
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      10-28-2012, 09:25 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
That is some hard data, however it doesn't proof your point, for at least couple of reasons.

First VW Golf is available, as a factory option, with either 15, 16 or 17 inch rims. Test in Car and Driver shows, that handling in those size wheels is increasing with coming to bigger wheels, and even in sizes 18 and 19 road handling is better, then with tires size 15, or 16. Acceleration suffers, but we talking VW Golf with 2,5l engine. It will not be a problem with 420 HP M3

Second, those tested tires are bigger, when rims are getting bigger. In M3 diameter of the tire on drive axle is exactly the same on 18 and 19 inch rim. Tire Rack shows, that both original equipment tires have 790 revs per mile. So it doesn't look like car will suffer from slower acceleration, it will have exactly the same ratios and speeds on every gear, and, according to Car & Driver test it probably would have better grip in corners.

When someone goes over factory size rims, let say to 20" on M3, car may suffer poorer fuel mileage and, possibly, slightly slower acceleration, if diameter of the wheel would increase. However test in C&D suggest, that going within factory size wheels, bigger is better. Better roadholding and better braking. For slightly slower acceleration - more power in M3 offers the answers. In my case it is 600 supercharged horses.
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      10-30-2012, 02:43 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polonus View Post
Sure. That's why cars like Bugatti (21" in rear!), Audi R8, all Ferraris and Lamborghinis, Corvette ZR1 and many others high performance cars use 19 and 20 inch rims. Just for looks, compromising performance.

Of course you can buy "regular" Corvette with 18 inch rims, but no ZR1. ZR1 is "good looking" model, for performance go with C6 Coupe on 18 inch wheels.



I did too. And that is why I say you have no idea what you are talking about. You right - big difference. 18 inch tires are "comfy" - or, to be precise, little more comfortable on potholes then 19 inch tires. Better ride? Sure. Better performance? In your dreams.

Either you didn't drive back to back M3 with 18 and 19 inch wheels, or you didn't pay any attention. There is a good reason why you cannot buy any Ferrari or Lamborghini on 18 inch wheels and it is not looks.

And I'm not saying, that 18 inch wheels cannot perform extremely well, but when you compare tires 265/40-18 to 265/35-19 there is no way car will handle better on tires with smaller rim, taller sides. Difference may be small, but always that difference will be for 19 inch tire advantage.

...Unless, of course, ride quality is your goal. In that case I suggest you to buy a Buick.
Not sure why you are trying to call him out when you don't have proof either...
You want to compare a C6 Vette with a ZR1. Why does the ZR1 have bigger tires? The front ZR1 rotors are a good ~70mm bigger than the base ones, you realize that right?

So back to your point why you can't buy Ferrari's and Lamborghini's with 18s:


Quote:
Originally Posted by polonus View Post
That is some hard data, however it doesn't proof your point, for at least couple of reasons.

First VW Golf is available, as a factory option, with either 15, 16 or 17 inch rims. Test in Car and Driver shows, that handling in those size wheels is increasing with coming to bigger wheels, and even in sizes 18 and 19 road handling is better, then with tires size 15, or 16. Acceleration suffers, but we talking VW Golf with 2,5l engine. It will not be a problem with 420 HP M3

Second, those tested tires are bigger, when rims are getting bigger. In M3 diameter of the tire on drive axle is exactly the same on 18 and 19 inch rim. Tire Rack shows, that both original equipment tires have 790 revs per mile. So it doesn't look like car will suffer from slower acceleration, it will have exactly the same ratios and speeds on every gear, and, according to Car & Driver test it probably would have better grip in corners.

When someone goes over factory size rims, let say to 20" on M3, car may suffer poorer fuel mileage and, possibly, slightly slower acceleration, if diameter of the wheel would increase. However test in C&D suggest, that going within factory size wheels, bigger is better. Better roadholding and better braking. For slightly slower acceleration - more power in M3 offers the answers. In my case it is 600 supercharged horses.
Did you even read the article? The 18s had the most grip because it had the more width than the 15-16's:
" Increasing wheel diameter and width, in turn, requires wider tires with shorter and stiffer sidewalls, which we found will increase skidpad grip, but as our test shows, there is a limit to this assertion"
Not to mention they were different compounds too.

If the width is the same, why would a larger diameter wheel be better as you claim?

Having said all this, I have 19s on my car (OEM). They do LOOK better without sacrificing enough performance for me to go to 18s, unless I'm at the track. This is just personal taste, but I don't think 18s on stock suspension look good on M3's. Now if it was lowered, it'd be a different story.
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      10-30-2012, 05:08 PM   #60
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If the width is the same, why would a larger diameter wheel be better as you claim?
Diameter of the whole wheel on rear axle in M3 is identical regardless of the factory rim size. Tire on 19 inch rim has shorter/lower sides, which means that is less "giving" on twisty roads. And that, in my book, is always better.

Of course I realize we are comparing very similar tires and difference in performance between 265/40 - 18 and 165/35 - 19 will be miniscules. However I refuse to accept that 18-inch wheel will be better in any performance category except, to some point, straight line accelerations. After reading the C&D test I can agree that smaller wheel with taller tire could have here slight advantage, but I cannot agree with those statements I read in this tread:

"19's are an OPTION for looks not performance" and "The only reason to get 19's are for looks."

LarThaL himself states::

Quote:
The M3 should have come with 18x9.5 front and 18x10.5" rear with 265/35/18 front and 285/35/18 rear tires. You can get this exact set-up in the proper offsets using Apex wheels. I have driven this set-up and it is better in every way possible when it comes to performance and ride.
So... why 35 tires are better on 18 inch wheels and do nothing on 19 inch rims? The whole tread is about factory options and we do not have from factory 285/35-18 tires. We can get 265/40-18 or 265/35-19. So maybe... just maybe 19 inch wheels are not only for looks?

I have 19 inch rims, because I bought used car with that options. I drove several M3's with 18 and 19 inch wheels, on streets, with moderate speed. No track experience with 18 inch wheels, however even on streets I can feel how much sharper car is with 19 inch wheels and 35 series tires. Sure, ride is slightly harsher, but if I want to feel like riding on clouds, I can borrow my wife's Audi A4 or my daughters old Taurus.

If we look at the road tests published in car magazines we won't get any answers either - difference is too small and varies from one test to other. So in real world it is coming down to personal preferences, where looks are not the least important.

I can give you that much: 19 inch will not help a lot, but certainly they will not compromise performance either.
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