BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-25-2012, 02:59 PM   #309
the infamous...
Relapsed Bimmerpost Addict
the infamous...'s Avatar
United_States
435
Rep
17,533
Posts

 
Drives: like I'M BOUT THAT LIFE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PARADISE aka CANES COUNTRY

iTrader: (0)

oh my goodness... such an incredible lookin kit
real stoked in seein/hearin more...
__________________


"simple is clean" -The ///ModFather
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2012, 02:57 AM   #310
F16RCE
Private First Class
F16RCE's Avatar
United Kingdom
3
Rep
122
Posts

 
Drives: e92 M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hertfordshire

iTrader: (0)

Personally, what i would find really useful is to see a drag race between an OEM M3, a Evolve stage 2 mapped M3, an Evolve Supercharged M3 and then a Supercharged M3 from another tuning company. What i really want to see is how this extra power translates in the real world. The car that would then appeal the most to me would be the one that gets off the mark the quickest and retains the lead up to 100MPH. The car i would be least interested in is the one that only gets going after 100MPH as that isnt the range at which i will be driving on a frequent basis.....

Sal - Is this something you guys could do? or would be willing to do?

Everyone has different needs and ideas on what they want. For me if a charger can give me a significant increase in low down acceleration that translates on the tarmac to me pulling away like a freight train over other cars then thats the one for me....

By the way im still loving the Evolve Stage 2 remap and thinks its a great upgrade!
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2012, 06:39 PM   #311
Sal@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
24
Rep
1,063
Posts


 
Drives: Slow
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Luton, Bedfordshire

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F16RCE View Post
Personally, what i would find really useful is to see a drag race between an OEM M3, a Evolve stage 2 mapped M3, an Evolve Supercharged M3 and then a Supercharged M3 from another tuning company. What i really want to see is how this extra power translates in the real world. The car that would then appeal the most to me would be the one that gets off the mark the quickest and retains the lead up to 100MPH. The car i would be least interested in is the one that only gets going after 100MPH as that isnt the range at which i will be driving on a frequent basis.....

Sal - Is this something you guys could do? or would be willing to do?

Everyone has different needs and ideas on what they want. For me if a charger can give me a significant increase in low down acceleration that translates on the tarmac to me pulling away like a freight train over other cars then thats the one for me....

By the way im still loving the Evolve Stage 2 remap and thinks its a great upgrade!
Hi,

it is completely reasonable what you are asking. What you want to see is a fast point to point car within reasonably quick speeds.
I appreciate not everyone wants to go 150mph!

We have no supercharged cars in the UK other than a few ESS cars.

If they want to come over and arrange a day at Bruntingthorpe then this is no problem at all.
I can tell you this, our supercharged car even with a bigger pulley running 6 PSi will destroy any of our NA bolt on setups. Even just a simple beginning of 2nd gear to end of third there is a massive difference.
Part throttle high gear acceleration is also very very impressive.

Against another supercharged car - well, it's very very different to G Power which is already very impressive. Against anything else we have no idea other than knowing how the Vortech blower behaves when substituted for the Rotrex on our kit and fully tuned.
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2012, 07:29 PM   #312
aus
Major General
118
Rep
7,420
Posts

 
Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

iTrader: (5)

So you guys tried the Vortech blower before you went with the Rotrex?

.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
Appreciate 0
      10-30-2012, 10:10 PM   #313
Top_Gear
Private
0
Rep
71
Posts

 
Drives: M3-E90-6MT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southern CA

iTrader: (0)

Haven't read the full thread, just the last few pages.

Has there been any evidence posted here or elsewhere that torque to the wheels in the sub-5000 rpm for this kit is higher than the kits from ESS, VF, etc.?

What's lacking in our car is low-rpm torque for city driving and if this kit outshines the others it might be worth a price premium in my book. (• Superior low end torque compared to other centrifugal superchargers)

PS: I too have an old 2008 e90 (original owner), the car went out of warranty 2 months ago and I am thinking of joining the "dark side" as well.

Rotrex Superchargers
• Extremely adiabatic efficient (up to 82%) equals great cruising gas mileage
• Superior low end torque compared to other centrifugal superchargers
• Ultra-high mechanical efficiency (up to 99.2)
• High durability (3 year warranty)
• Superior throttle response
• Excellent fuel economy

Last edited by Top_Gear; 10-30-2012 at 10:18 PM.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 12:57 AM   #314
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
All of the weaker parts
... and the special xylan finish on the plenum.
Thanks for the added detail. Many of us can appreciate the level of thought, detail and engineering here. However, you have completely avoided my real question. See below again in bold. All of the advantages you have pointed out are not at all translating into the two things that really matter - performance or longevity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
At the end of the day, what real world performance or longevity advantages are you bringing to the table compared to lower priced kits? Do you have any quantitative comparisons? For example will your system exhibit less power loss under hard conditions in high ambient temperatures? If so, again some quantification or comparison would be great. Most folks have no problem spending more for more performance but personally what I look for is the ratio - the old bang for the buck point of view.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 04:04 AM   #315
Donbona
Lieutenant Colonel
Donbona's Avatar
United Kingdom
40
Rep
1,668
Posts

 
Drives: E93 M3 DCT 2008
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Thanks for the added detail. Many of us can appreciate the level of thought, detail and engineering here. However, you have completely avoided my real question. See below again in bold. All of the advantages you have pointed out are not at all translating into the two things that really matter - performance or longevity.
Im not very technical when it comes to these things but after doing a comparo with a friend that has a VT650 over here is that his charger doesnt start to work until the very high rpms.. where as my GPower and the Evolve kit (which I test drove) kicks in instantly....
The reason I went for the kit that I have is mainly for this....I want to feel instant boost. I do alot of daily driving.
But I guess if you want your car to go over 150mph on a regular basis then maybe the ESS kit is better
__________________
M3 E93 DCT, Space Grey,BC HB29 Forged Deep Concave Wheels, Ericsson Amuse F/R Bumper, Evolve Full Exhaust System, INTRAX Coilovers, STOPTECH BBK, Performance Steering Wheel,Custom Red/Black Leather Seats,///M3 ||Bimmerpost M3 Car Of The Month May - 2010SOLD
2010 R35 GTR
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 06:44 AM   #316
pbonsalb
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,796
Posts

 
Drives: 08 E90 M3, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Concord, NH

iTrader: (3)

Because the planetary gear drive blowers like the Rotrex, HKS, and ASA spin about twice as fast as the Vortech, Paxton and Procharger single step up ratio gear drive blowers, the centrifugal effect begins a little sooner and boost build a little sooner. I think "a little" is the right description. The downside is that, at least thus far, none of these blowers have had the top end of the Vortech. Their small impellers are less efficient at high flow volumes and their complex gear drive system does not allow them to reliably be spun any faster.

So thus far, it has been a compromise between a little better midrange with flattening out on top or a little less midrange and no loss of flow up top. ESS used to use the ASA, but changed to the Vortech. ESS has previously stated their testing did not show any dramatic differences in power curves or reliability, but that it was simpler for ESS to use one blower in all of its kits and only the Vortech had the flow range for that broad use.

Whoever said they want to feel instant boost needs to study centrifugal superchargers. A centrifugal that makes 9 psi at 8400 rpm will make roughly 3 psi at 4200 rpm. It is just the nature of the centrifugal. The planetary gear drive blowers may improve on this a little -- would 4 psi at 4200 make you happy -- but not dramatically and they sacrifice some flow on the top end. If you want instant boost, the closest you will come is a positive displacement blower like a twinscrew of Eaton 4 lobe, but no kits are available for these cars. Or a turbo sized a little on the small size.

One of the car specific problems with instant boost is that the S65 is an 8400 rpm motor and high rpm motors just don't make much power at low rpm and this is also true when they are fitted with any form of forced induction. Another car specific problem is the 12.0:1 compression ratio. You simply cannot run much boost in the natural torque window (peak cylinder pressure) on pump gas. The centrifugal is actually well suited to this engine for these reasons -- its boost follows the engine's power curve and causes no real issues. It is also much much easier to tune than a turbo.

I know Rotrex has come out with the C38-91, which is higher flowing than the previous top of the line Rotrex models and that ASA is also working on a higher flowing blower or may already have it. But the inevitable larger impeller means it takes a little longer to get flowing, which diminishes some of the low to midrange advantage. Time will tell on how these work out. AA has already shared dyno tests of a built motor running a C38-91 at way more boost than Evolve is running and the power was not exceptional. It was on a development tune, so maybe a little more timing (always risky with 12.0:1 CR on pump gas) will help. ESS, on the other hand, has run the Vortech Si Trim to about 650 rwhp.

Exciting news in the world of centrifugals is coming from Procharger, which has developed a variable speed transmission that is user adjustable to alter the flow patterns. It can spin the blower faster at lower rpm to make boost sooner than any centrifugal on the market. Should be released later this year. It has a big body to house the transmission and may be best suited for large displacement V8s that have the torque to spare to drive the blower fast at low rpm. Time will tell.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 06:53 AM   #317
Donbona
Lieutenant Colonel
Donbona's Avatar
United Kingdom
40
Rep
1,668
Posts

 
Drives: E93 M3 DCT 2008
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Because the planetary gear drive blowers like the Rotrex, HKS, and ASA spin about twice as fast as the Vortech, Paxton and Procharger single step up ratio gear drive blowers, the centrifugal effect begins a little sooner and boost build a little sooner. I think "a little" is the right description. The downside is that, at least thus far, none of these blowers have had the top end of the Vortech. Their small impellers are less efficient at high flow volumes and their complex gear drive system does not allow them to reliably be spun any faster.

So thus far, it has been a compromise between a little better midrange with flattening out on top or a little less midrange and no loss of flow up top. ESS used to use the ASA, but changed to the Vortech. ESS has previously stated their testing did not show any dramatic differences in power curves or reliability, but that it was simpler for ESS to use one blower in all of its kits and only the Vortech had the flow range for that broad use.

Whoever said they want to feel instant boost needs to study centrifugal superchargers. A centrifugal that makes 9 psi at 8400 rpm will make roughly 3 psi at 4200 rpm. It is just the nature of the centrifugal. The planetary gear drive blowers may improve on this a little -- would 4 psi at 4200 make you happy -- but not dramatically and they sacrifice some flow on the top end. If you want instant boost, the closest you will come is a positive displacement blower like a twinscrew of Eaton 4 lobe, but no kits are available for these cars. Or a turbo sized a little on the small size.

One of the car specific problems with instant boost is that the S65 is an 8400 rpm motor and high rpm motors just don't make much power at low rpm and this is also true when they are fitted with any form of forced induction. Another car specific problem is the 12.0:1 compression ratio. You simply cannot run much boost in the natural torque window (peak cylinder pressure) on pump gas. The centrifugal is actually well suited to this engine for these reasons -- its boost follows the engine's power curve and causes no real issues. It is also much much easier to tune than a turbo.

I know Rotrex has come out with the C38-91, which is higher flowing than the previous top of the line Rotrex models and that ASA is also working on a higher flowing blower or may already have it. But the inevitable larger impeller means it takes a little longer to get flowing, which diminishes some of the low to midrange advantage. Time will tell on how these work out. AA has already shared dyno tests of a built motor running a C38-91 at way more boost than Evolve is running and the power was not exceptional. It was on a development tune, so maybe a little more timing (always risky with 12.0:1 CR on pump gas) will help. ESS, on the other hand, has run the Vortech Si Trim to about 650 rwhp.

Exciting news in the world of centrifugals is coming from Procharger, which has developed a variable speed transmission that is user adjustable to alter the flow patterns. It can spin the blower faster at lower rpm to make boost sooner than any centrifugal on the market. Should be released later this year. It has a big body to house the transmission and may be best suited for large displacement V8s that have the torque to spare to drive the blower fast at low rpm. Time will tell.
Thanks for that info... very helpful to someone like myself who doesnt fully understand.
__________________
M3 E93 DCT, Space Grey,BC HB29 Forged Deep Concave Wheels, Ericsson Amuse F/R Bumper, Evolve Full Exhaust System, INTRAX Coilovers, STOPTECH BBK, Performance Steering Wheel,Custom Red/Black Leather Seats,///M3 ||Bimmerpost M3 Car Of The Month May - 2010SOLD
2010 R35 GTR
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 01:13 PM   #318
THE-FN-MAN
Captain
11
Rep
867
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 x2
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: the wood

iTrader: (0)

How much more low torque would you want? My kit doesn't hook until 3rd (with warm 295 nitto nt05's). I feel like less torque early on would help traction lol
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 02:05 PM   #319
pbonsalb
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,796
Posts

 
Drives: 08 E90 M3, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Concord, NH

iTrader: (3)

The people with Porsche 911 Turbo Ss making 516 lbs torque at 2100 rpm and Corvette Z06s making 470 lbs torque and Nissan GTRs making 463 lbs torque at 3200 rpm are not complaining. Yes, two of those cars are AWD and the RWD car has 325mm wide rear tires.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 02:24 PM   #320
F16RCE
Private First Class
F16RCE's Avatar
United Kingdom
3
Rep
122
Posts

 
Drives: e92 M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hertfordshire

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
Thanks for that info... very helpful to someone like myself who doesnt fully understand.
i dont know what he said but it sounds bloody impressive!

Can anyone summarise? Which is best!
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 08:03 PM   #321
THE-FN-MAN
Captain
11
Rep
867
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 x2
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: the wood

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb
The people with Porsche 911 Turbo Ss making 516 lbs torque at 2100 rpm and Corvette Z06s making 470 lbs torque and Nissan GTRs making 463 lbs torque at 3200 rpm are not complaining. Yes, two of those cars are AWD and the RWD car has 325mm wide rear tires.
All cars which come stock and built this way lol I wonder what would happen if you added 200 horsepower to em hahaha.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2012, 09:02 PM   #322
Top_Gear
Private
0
Rep
71
Posts

 
Drives: M3-E90-6MT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southern CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
If you want instant boost, the closest you will come is a positive displacement blower like a twinscrew of Eaton 4 lobe, but no kits are available for these cars.
Thank you, that's an excellent educational piece for somebody like me. But WHY are no "positive displacement" kits available for our beloved M3? Is it not possible to squeeze it in the engine bay (space constraint) or is it that they are not technically compatible with our high-revving motor?
Appreciate 0
      11-01-2012, 01:04 AM   #323
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donbona View Post
Im not very technical when it comes to these things but after doing a comparo with a friend that has a VT650 over here is that his charger doesnt start to work until the very high rpms.. where as my GPower and the Evolve kit (which I test drove) kicks in instantly....
The reason I went for the kit that I have is mainly for this....I want to feel instant boost. I do alot of daily driving.
But I guess if you want your car to go over 150mph on a regular basis then maybe the ESS kit is better
As pbonsalb described above there are certainly differences among the operation and rpm ranges of various SC options. At some level the comparisons are splitting hairs though because all SCs operate off of the crankshaft. This is the key difference compared to turbo chargers which operate from exhaust flow and are fighting impeller inertia at lower engine rpms. This is why calling any SC as not working at low rpms is pretty much a fallacy. If you look at the torque curves of any of the common SC kits out there for the M3 all offer a significant boost across the entire rpm range. Again, yes there are differences, but they are not enormous.
Appreciate 0
      11-01-2012, 02:36 AM   #324
F16RCE
Private First Class
F16RCE's Avatar
United Kingdom
3
Rep
122
Posts

 
Drives: e92 M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hertfordshire

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
As pbonsalb described above there are certainly differences among the operation and rpm ranges of various SC options. At some level the comparisons are splitting hairs though because all SCs operate off of the crankshaft. This is the key difference compared to turbo chargers which operate from exhaust flow and are fighting impeller inertia at lower engine rpms. This is why calling any SC as not working at low rpms is pretty much a fallacy. If you look at the torque curves of any of the common SC kits out there for the M3 all offer a significant boost across the entire rpm range. Again, yes there are differences, but they are not enormous.
very helpful.... thx

so in the real world the useable power will be much the same for all these kits?
Appreciate 0
      11-01-2012, 06:57 AM   #325
pbonsalb
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,796
Posts

 
Drives: 08 E90 M3, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Concord, NH

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post

At some level the comparisons are splitting hairs though because all SCs operate off of the crankshaft. This is the key difference compared to turbo chargers which operate from exhaust flow and are fighting impeller inertia at lower engine rpms. This is why calling any SC as not working at low rpms is pretty much a fallacy.
Sure, the impeller spins at low engine rpm, but centrifugals produce no boost at low engine rpm. Same goes for a turbo impeller, which is also spinning at low exhaust flow levels, but producing no boost. The only supercharger that produces boost at low rpm is the twinscrew or older style positive displacement blower.

In comparison, a good turbo system will make full boost before the first half of the rpm curve. At that point, the centrifugal will make roughly the square root of its peak boost, and won't reach peak boost until redline (although most of the second half of the rpm curve is fun because boost starts building faster and faster). A good positive displacement blower system should make full boost from roughly the first quarter to one third of the rpm curve right through to redline.

The reason the positiuve displacement blowers have not been fitted to the S65 is partly due to the fact that instant boost at low rpm would increase the likelihood of knock on a 12.0:1 CR engine, cost would be greater because a twinscrew is more expensive than a centrifugal and harder to tune, and practicality because the S65 has those nice air intake trumpets under the intake manifold and they would have to be sacrificed to fit a twinscrew or the twinscrew would have to protrude well above the already substantial hood bulge. In years of tuners modding E46M3s, no positive displacement blower kits were ever developed for similar reasons, but they do exist for traditional throttle body BMWs.
Appreciate 0
      11-01-2012, 08:43 AM   #326
F16RCE
Private First Class
F16RCE's Avatar
United Kingdom
3
Rep
122
Posts

 
Drives: e92 M3 DCT
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hertfordshire

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Sure, the impeller spins at low engine rpm, but centrifugals produce no boost at low engine rpm. Same goes for a turbo impeller, which is also spinning at low exhaust flow levels, but producing no boost. The only supercharger that produces boost at low rpm is the twinscrew or older style positive displacement blower.

In comparison, a good turbo system will make full boost before the first half of the rpm curve. At that point, the centrifugal will make roughly the square root of its peak boost, and won't reach peak boost until redline (although most of the second half of the rpm curve is fun because boost starts building faster and faster). A good positive displacement blower system should make full boost from roughly the first quarter to one third of the rpm curve right through to redline.

The reason the positiuve displacement blowers have not been fitted to the S65 is partly due to the fact that instant boost at low rpm would increase the likelihood of knock on a 12.0:1 CR engine, cost would be greater because a twinscrew is more expensive than a centrifugal and harder to tune, and practicality because the S65 has those nice air intake trumpets under the intake manifold and they would have to be sacrificed to fit a twinscrew or the twinscrew would have to protrude well above the already substantial hood bulge. In years of tuners modding E46M3s, no positive displacement blower kits were ever developed for similar reasons, but they do exist for traditional throttle body BMWs.
Just as i thought.....
Appreciate 0
      11-01-2012, 10:25 AM   #327
Sal@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
24
Rep
1,063
Posts


 
Drives: Slow
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Luton, Bedfordshire

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Because the planetary gear drive blowers like the Rotrex, HKS, and ASA spin about twice as fast as the Vortech, Paxton and Procharger single step up ratio gear drive blowers, the centrifugal effect begins a little sooner and boost build a little sooner. I think "a little" is the right description. The downside is that, at least thus far, none of these blowers have had the top end of the Vortech. Their small impellers are less efficient at high flow volumes and their complex gear drive system does not allow them to reliably be spun any faster.

So thus far, it has been a compromise between a little better midrange with flattening out on top or a little less midrange and no loss of flow up top. ESS used to use the ASA, but changed to the Vortech. ESS has previously stated their testing did not show any dramatic differences in power curves or reliability, but that it was simpler for ESS to use one blower in all of its kits and only the Vortech had the flow range for that broad use.

Whoever said they want to feel instant boost needs to study centrifugal superchargers. A centrifugal that makes 9 psi at 8400 rpm will make roughly 3 psi at 4200 rpm. It is just the nature of the centrifugal. The planetary gear drive blowers may improve on this a little -- would 4 psi at 4200 make you happy -- but not dramatically and they sacrifice some flow on the top end. If you want instant boost, the closest you will come is a positive displacement blower like a twinscrew of Eaton 4 lobe, but no kits are available for these cars. Or a turbo sized a little on the small size.

One of the car specific problems with instant boost is that the S65 is an 8400 rpm motor and high rpm motors just don't make much power at low rpm and this is also true when they are fitted with any form of forced induction. Another car specific problem is the 12.0:1 compression ratio. You simply cannot run much boost in the natural torque window (peak cylinder pressure) on pump gas. The centrifugal is actually well suited to this engine for these reasons -- its boost follows the engine's power curve and causes no real issues. It is also much much easier to tune than a turbo.

I know Rotrex has come out with the C38-91, which is higher flowing than the previous top of the line Rotrex models and that ASA is also working on a higher flowing blower or may already have it. But the inevitable larger impeller means it takes a little longer to get flowing, which diminishes some of the low to midrange advantage. Time will tell on how these work out. AA has already shared dyno tests of a built motor running a C38-91 at way more boost than Evolve is running and the power was not exceptional. It was on a development tune, so maybe a little more timing (always risky with 12.0:1 CR on pump gas) will help. ESS, on the other hand, has run the Vortech Si Trim to about 650 rwhp.

Exciting news in the world of centrifugals is coming from Procharger, which has developed a variable speed transmission that is user adjustable to alter the flow patterns. It can spin the blower faster at lower rpm to make boost sooner than any centrifugal on the market. Should be released later this year. It has a big body to house the transmission and may be best suited for large displacement V8s that have the torque to spare to drive the blower fast at low rpm. Time will tell.
Most of what you say is theoretically correct.

However, study the compressor maps (and correct them to the same standards before you do) of the V3Si and C38-91.

What you will find is that the Rotrex produces more boost much earlier and closely matches the V3Si for absolute maximum airflow. They both produce over 1100 CFM.

Vortech shows 1150CFM with SAEJ1723. Correct the Rotrex to the same standard and conditions and it makes 1134 CFM.

So how do they actually perform once bolted to the engine? Is there a big difference?

Top end HP no not really. Through the RPM range - yes.. very much so. Under partial load rolling on the throttle - massive difference. Response - Big difference.

The effects are completely different from one blower to another.

Once you are in a development programme this complex it takes hardly any additional effort to make a bracket to fit another type of blower. The rapid prototyping of intakes is quick and everything can be tested. We have this data to hand. We have not really gone about posting it and comparing blowers as it causes nothing but chaos. Now the questions have been asked I guess we need to respond.

Out kit gives quite an impressive low-mid rpm torque delivery. The response is very much instant. If people find this too much then we will give the option of the V3Si. We just put the bract into production. We use the same pulleys as we prefer an 8 Rib setup for best belt traction. It would very much still be unique as it would be the first Vortech based air to air inter cooled setup out there. We will ONLY make it if people find the response and torque of the Rotrex is too much. Highly unlikely. One of very secondary reasons we used a Rotrex is because no one else did at the time. So uniqueness was important to us also but not an over riding decision maker.

If anyone insists on seeing the difference of boost and power of the blowers we can supply this but I would ask people wait for the kit to go on a few people's cars first and you get independent reviews to back up what I am saying. This way you probably won't need to see any kind of comparison and we don't need to start getting into the 'which blower is best' wars which other companies can fight out. We personally do not care which blower we use. We have no personal relationships with any company and have no allegiances to them. We use the one we feel that fits the bill as per our concept of tuning.

All I can say is that both blowers are great. They clearly both produce excellent results and not just on this platform.

We have used the Vortech's and Rotrex on the S62's and the difference is very similar. Same top end power. Everything else is different.

You will see. Give us a chance.

The Rotrex that was used on the AA car was running at around maximum capacity and it made 580rwhp on their Mustang. This would equate to a fair bit higher on a dynojet.

Interesting new on Procharger but as you say... they are a little large!
Appreciate 0
      11-01-2012, 10:37 AM   #328
Sal@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
24
Rep
1,063
Posts


 
Drives: Slow
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Luton, Bedfordshire

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Thanks for the added detail. Many of us can appreciate the level of thought, detail and engineering here. However, you have completely avoided my real question. See below again in bold. All of the advantages you have pointed out are not at all translating into the two things that really matter - performance or longevity.
I purposefully did not answer the question. My apologies for not PM'ing you and letting you know the reason.

We do not want to start comparing our kit to the other kits.

We know where it leads. You know where it leads. There is too much drama about supercharger comparisons already and a lot of the time it has become extremely nasty. Anything we say will lead to something. No matter how we say it someone will find an angle that they don't like.

All we have to say is this - the dyno graphs you see are all tested in the same way as we test a standard E9x M3. We are in most cases displaying SAE numbers with slight negative correction.
If people appreciate a very high level of engineering, a power delivery with excellent response, lots of low-mid rpm torque combined with a powerful non stop top end , appreciate the air to air step... then this is kit will interest them.
Appreciate 0
      11-01-2012, 11:43 AM   #329
pbonsalb
Lieutenant Colonel
21
Rep
1,796
Posts

 
Drives: 08 E90 M3, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Concord, NH

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post

The Rotrex that was used on the AA car was running at around maximum capacity and it made 580rwhp on their Mustang. This would equate to a fair bit higher on a dynojet.
My understanding is that the Rotrex C38-91 on the AA car made 502 rwhp on their Mustang and 555 rwhp SAE on a Dynojet, at 10.1 psi peak boost.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=c38-91

Obviously, the dyno does not reflect daily driveability, and I think that is where a planetary gear drive blower has at least some advantage.
Appreciate 0
      11-01-2012, 02:10 PM   #330
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
215
Rep
10,201
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
I purposefully did not answer the question. My apologies for not PM'ing you and letting you know the reason.

We do not want to start comparing our kit to the other kits.

We know where it leads. You know where it leads. There is too much drama about supercharger comparisons already and a lot of the time it has become extremely nasty. Anything we say will lead to something. No matter how we say it someone will find an angle that they don't like.

All we have to say is this - the dyno graphs you see are all tested in the same way as we test a standard E9x M3. We are in most cases displaying SAE numbers with slight negative correction.
If people appreciate a very high level of engineering, a power delivery with excellent response, lots of low-mid rpm torque combined with a powerful non stop top end , appreciate the air to air step... then this is kit will interest them.
Thanks, this above along with some of the prior information is a adequate answer.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST