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      10-24-2012, 02:30 PM   #45
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The Merc is just soo not pleasing to the eyes IMO.
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      10-24-2012, 03:03 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtre View Post
It would have been interesting to see how Salo had done in the M3. I think that lap had been faster than the one he did in the merc.....
Yeah, I had the exact same thought. The testing methodology for the track time isn't particularly accurate - former F1 pro v. a talking head. The driving skill of the pro would presumably skew the results somewhat.

This is why Top Gear's "Stig" was so great - he gave the results a sense of reliability.
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      10-24-2012, 04:05 PM   #47
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Agreed! A seat swap would have given a more definitive result.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Talk2meg00se View Post
Yeah, I had the exact same thought. The testing methodology for the track time isn't particularly accurate - former F1 pro v. a talking head. The driving skill of the pro would presumably skew the results somewhat.

This is why Top Gear's "Stig" was so great - he gave the results a sense of reliability.
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      10-24-2012, 04:14 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talk2meg00se View Post
Yeah, I had the exact same thought. The testing methodology for the track time isn't particularly accurate - former F1 pro v. a talking head. The driving skill of the pro would presumably skew the results somewhat.

This is why Top Gear's "Stig" was so great - he gave the results a sense of reliability.
Jason Plato is not a "talking head". He is a professional touring car driver and has won the BTCC championship many times. He's pretty well qualified and successful as a racing driver and continues to compete in professional racing as his full time job. The TV show is just a part time deal for him.
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      10-24-2012, 06:15 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post

Anyways and going extremely eccentric, BMW proved in DTM that the M3 is still the King of the Ring. AMG and Audi go home and learn from your BMW Masters a bit of that know-how (yawning)...
http://www.dtm.com/en/Technical-Regulations.html
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      10-24-2012, 10:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
And the Mercedes-Benz AMG DTM C-class Coupé isn't either, so I don't understand what you're trying to prove. Both DTM cars are based on road cars and have been extremely modified to an equal extent. The result was that the BMW M3 beated the hell out of them (Mercedes-Benz AMG and Audi). Based on that fact and going backwards, I don't think that Black Series is better than that M3 GTS.
You are clueless if you think DTM cars are based on road cars. They use a monocoque chassis...silly.

Absolutely ZERO relation to any road going BMW, Benz, or Audi.

It is no more related to a M3, than a Nascar is related to a Camry.
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      10-24-2012, 10:57 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
Anyways and going extremely eccentric, BMW proved in DTM that the M3 is still the King of the Ring. AMG and Audi go home and learn from your BMW Masters a bit of that know-how (yawning)...
King of the Ring huh? Yet the Merc is 2 second faster than the GTS at the Ring.
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      10-25-2012, 01:02 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
You are clueless if you think DTM cars are based on road cars. They use a monocoque chassis...silly.

Absolutely ZERO relation to any road going BMW, Benz, or Audi.

It is no more related to a M3, than a Nascar is related to a Camry.
The only silly is you. First learn how to respect others before commenting. I have been involved in the F1 programme with all its technological wind tunnel backgrounds and the FIZ in Germany for more than 12 years while you, in the U.S., had no idea what F1 is.

Besides that, what I already said is that the most eccentric BMW M3 which is the DTM version beated the hell out of Mercedes-Benz AMG DTM C-Class Coupe. Even in the ALMS, the M3 is more competitive than Porsche, Ferrari, or Corvette.

Anyways if you prefer that Mercedes-Benz AMG C-Class Coupe Black Series crap, then why not buy it instead of a BMW?
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      10-25-2012, 01:06 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BMW4fun View Post
King of the Ring huh? Yet the Merc is 2 second faster than the GTS at the Ring.
Look at the DTM championship then come back and talk. That Mercedes-Benz AMG C-Coupe Black Series has 60 hp more than the M3 GTS, so it should at least be faster all-around, unless those 60 hp are donkies rather than ponies.

Last edited by Rolitto; 10-25-2012 at 01:31 AM.
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      10-25-2012, 11:03 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
The only silly is you. First learn how to respect others before commenting.
Your posts are always full of fanboy BS. Get a grip we all drive BMW's. Once again what you said in earlier posts, makes it sound like you have no clue what you are talking about. Could be a language barrier, but I don't think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
I have been involved in the F1 programme with all its technological wind tunnel backgrounds and the FIZ in Germany for more than 12 years while you, in the U.S., had no idea what F1 is.
Nice respect, hypocrite. You going to the F1 race in Austin, Mr. big F1 technical wind tunnel genius? Or you still mad BMW left F1 with their tail between their legs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
Besides that, what I already said is that the most eccentric BMW M3 which is the DTM version beated the hell out of Mercedes-Benz AMG DTM C-Class Coupe. Even in the ALMS, the M3 is more competitive than Porsche, Ferrari, or Corvette.
Actually most eccentric BMW M3 is the E92 M3 GT. The DTM car is not even remotely related to a M3. It is no more related to a M3, than a Nascar is related to a Camry.

The ALMS M3 GT lost the championship this year to Corvette, so wrong again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
Anyways if you prefer that Mercedes-Benz AMG C-Class Coupe Black Series crap, then why not buy it instead of a BMW?
I am not a BMW nuthugger, so maybe at some point I will get a Black Series. I have owned many BMW's, as well as a couple Audi's and Benz's. You only live once why limit youself to one brand. There are many many great cars out there.

Last edited by M3_WC; 10-25-2012 at 11:25 PM.
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      10-25-2012, 11:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BMW4fun View Post
King of the Ring huh? Yet the Merc is 2 second faster than the GTS at the Ring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
Look at the DTM championship then come back and talk. That Mercedes-Benz AMG C-Coupe Black Series has 60 hp more than the M3 GTS, so it should at least be faster all-around, unless those 60 hp are donkies rather than ponies.
^
DTM has nothing to do with these two road cars. NOTHING!
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      10-26-2012, 04:53 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
Your posts are always full of fanboy BS. Get a grip we all drive BMW's. Once again what you said in earlier posts, makes it sound like you have no clue what you are talking about. Could be a language barrier, but I don't think so.

Nice respect, hypocrite. You going to the F1 race in Austin, Mr. big F1 technical wind tunnel genius? Or you still mad BMW left F1 with their tail between their legs.

Actually most eccentric BMW M3 is the E92 M3 GT. The DTM car is not even remotely related to a M3. It is no more related to a M3, than a Nascar is related to a Camry.

The ALMS M3 GT lost the championship this year to Corvette, so wrong again.

I am not a BMW nuthugger, so maybe at some point I will get a Black Series. I have owned many BMW's, as well as a couple Audi's and Benz's. You only live once why limit youself to one brand. There are many many great cars out there.
Everything you said reflects how highly educated you are. Ciao!

P.S. Just do me a favor and stop replying to my posts.
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      10-26-2012, 10:15 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red998 View Post
Touring Car driver vs Ex F1 driver
drag race- they should have switched at some point
drifting is natural to any F1 driver
F1 driver almost mounts the car in barrier wall (he is really pushing it) and is only .3 ahead?

The Mika should have skipped the drift test, he looked as if he would shit himself.
Bring in a real drifting driver from Japan to rip it up...

It almost felt like they wanted to AMG to win in the series.

At the end of the day, its up to what people want...
That's the way the automotive press works. The M3 they tested is how many years old? Fifth Gear doesn't want BMW to rest on their laurels, so they goad them with better reviews of other cars.

That's not to say that the Merc didn't win fair and square, just that if you watch patterns in automotive magazines and TV shows, you will notice that they push manufacturers buttons just a little harder during development of replacement vehicles. With the next gen M3/4 nearing completion, the automotive press is going to set BMW up for an epic return, because most in the automotive press really like BMW as a company and as a car. They're one of the last remaining independent makes that are driver-focused and still obtainable by a significant population.
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      10-26-2012, 10:38 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
What a silly comparison. M3 is superior no matter if Mercedes-Benz AMG fitted a jet engine in that Black Series or whatever. A BMW M3 is built with passion on motorsport history and racing soul. The M3 is focused on balance with the right amount of power and a stability to die for. AMG just fits a more powerful engine on each of its classes, modifies the bumpers and brakes, then calls it AMG Black Series.

Anyways and going extremely eccentric, BMW proved in DTM that the M3 is still the King of the Ring. AMG and Audi go home and learn from your BMW Masters a bit of that know-how (yawning)...
Ignorance at its finest


My brother just picked up his C63 Black series - it hands down blows away any M3 I have ever seen. The car is extremely wide and aggressive, and from any angle it makes the M3 look weak in comparison. The brakes blow away those on the M, it accelerates much faster and handles better as well. The one thing I absolutely despised about the regular C63 was the shit transmission, and the dual clutch MCT in the black series is no different than the DCT in my car - I absolutely love it. The car truley is nothing like a regular C63 whatsoever. Even with my car having 30k invested into it (supercharger, wheels, brakes, suspension etc...) the C63 still effortlessly wins in my book in every aspect except straight line speed (that can easily be fixed with headers/tune....or a simple weistec blower). The biggest difference between the two is the rear of the car, the flared body on the C63 is significantly wider than that of the M, heres a quick pic I took:


Also, the interior of the M is completely outdated in comparison to the Black Series...the suede interior, red stiching, red seatbelts, etc... all make you feel in a more dedicated racecar than a regular M3. You see at least 3-5 M3's on the road a day around here, as where I've never seen a C63 BS in my life. Exclusivity on that car is on a complete other level.

Last edited by erm324; 10-26-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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      10-26-2012, 10:59 AM   #59
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Maybe Mika is not anymore BMW supporter, even his wife ex car was e46 m3 cab phoenix gelb!
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      10-26-2012, 11:56 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erm324 View Post
Ignorance at its finest


My brother just picked up his C63 Black series - it hands down blows away any M3 I have ever seen. The car is extremely wide and aggressive, and from any angle it makes the M3 look weak in comparison. The brakes blow away those on the M, it accelerates much faster and handles better as well. The one thing I absolutely despised about the regular C63 was the shit transmission, and the dual clutch MCT in the black series is no different than the DCT in my car - I absolutely love it. The car truley is nothing like a regular C63 whatsoever. Even with my car having 30k invested into it (supercharger, wheels, brakes, suspension etc...) the C63 still effortlessly wins in my book in every aspect except straight line speed (that can easily be fixed with headers/tune....or a simple weistec blower). The biggest difference between the two is the rear of the car, the flared body on the C63 is significantly wider than that of the M, heres a quick pic I took:


Also, the interior of the M is completely outdated in comparison to the Black Series...the suede interior, red stiching, red seatbelts, etc... all make you feel in a more dedicated racecar than a regular M3. You see at least 3-5 M3's on the road a day around here, as where I've never seen a C63 BS in my life. Exclusivity on that car is on a complete other level.
Please enlighten me a bit, should I call you Dr. Mario Theissen?

How did he know it handles better? Did he drive it against the M3 GTS? Is he the well-known Stig, Chris Harris, or someone that I'm not aware of?
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      10-26-2012, 12:09 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
The only silly is you. First learn how to respect others before commenting. I have been involved in the F1 programme with all its technological wind tunnel backgrounds and the FIZ in Germany for more than 12 years while you, in the U.S., had no idea what F1 is.

Besides that, what I already said is that the most eccentric BMW M3 which is the DTM version beated the hell out of Mercedes-Benz AMG DTM C-Class Coupe. Even in the ALMS, the M3 is more competitive than Porsche, Ferrari, or Corvette.

Anyways if you prefer that Mercedes-Benz AMG C-Class Coupe Black Series crap, then why not buy it instead of a BMW?
You realize Porsche has the most titles and most ALMS wins of all time right? Porsche is also the most successful race car manuf. in history. I dont think BMW, Ferrari or Chevy are even close, nor will they ever be. They are much more competitive (read: own BMW/Ferrari/Chevy/etc) in ALMS, since 1999 they have 9 first place finishes for the manuf's title. BMW and Ferrari combined havnt had even close to that many 1st place finishes.

The Black Series is awesome looking. Had a chance to see it up close at the US Open and it was very aggressive and looked great IMO.

Its funny that BMW can make the 1M so aggressive and people love it...yet its still a fugly car. MB comes out with a GREAT looking, VERY aggressive car yet the people who keep saying BMW needs more aggressive cars dont like this? I dont get it...what more could you want. Fender flares and exterior on this thing are menacing, the exhaust sounds bad ass, the interior is top notch as well as the transmission. Give some respect where its due, and it certainly is here.

I have not driven a C63 Black, but MT rated it behind the 991 911 S as the 2012 Best Driver's car. That says something since all know the 911 especially the GT cars are probably the most scalpel like cars on the road.

Last edited by Wolfinwolfsclothing; 10-26-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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      10-26-2012, 12:21 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
You realize Porsche has the most titles and most ALMS wins of all time right? Porsche is also the most successful race car manuf. in history. I dont think BMW, Ferrari or Chevy are even close, nor will they ever be. They are much more competitive in ALMS, since 1999 they have 9 first place finishes for the manuf's title. BMW and Ferrari combined havnt had even close to that many 1st place finishes.

The Black Series is awesome looking. Had a chance to see it up close at the US Open and it was very aggressive and looked great IMO.
+1


Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
Please enlighten me a bit, should I call you Dr. Mario Theissen?

How did he know it handles better? Did he drive it against the M3 GTS? Is he the well-known Stig, Chris Harris, or someone that I'm not aware of?
Driving the C63 BS back to back with an M3 ZCP with coilovers and swaybars is a better comparison than you can say, eh? Having never seen a Black Series in person, let alone owning one, I don't think your at any disposition to be giving opinions on a comparison between these two cars. You sound like an ignorant M3 fanboy putting down anything that doesnt have an M badge on it. My comparison was between my personal M3 and the Black Series, not a GTS.

Last edited by erm324; 10-26-2012 at 12:37 PM.
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      10-27-2012, 10:28 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erm324 View Post
Ignorance at its finest


My brother just picked up his C63 Black series - it hands down blows away any M3 I have ever seen. The car is extremely wide and aggressive, and from any angle it makes the M3 look weak in comparison. The brakes blow away those on the M, it accelerates much faster and handles better as well. The one thing I absolutely despised about the regular C63 was the shit transmission, and the dual clutch MCT in the black series is no different than the DCT in my car - I absolutely love it. The car truley is nothing like a regular C63 whatsoever. Even with my car having 30k invested into it (supercharger, wheels, brakes, suspension etc...) the C63 still effortlessly wins in my book in every aspect except straight line speed (that can easily be fixed with headers/tune....or a simple weistec blower). The biggest difference between the two is the rear of the car, the flared body on the C63 is significantly wider than that of the M, heres a quick pic I took:


Also, the interior of the M is completely outdated in comparison to the Black Series...the suede interior, red stiching, red seatbelts, etc... all make you feel in a more dedicated racecar than a regular M3. You see at least 3-5 M3's on the road a day around here, as where I've never seen a C63 BS in my life. Exclusivity on that car is on a complete other level.
So the Mercedes that costs $130k is better than the M3 I bought new for $58k. Thanks for letting me know.
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      10-27-2012, 12:20 PM   #64
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Quote:
You sound like an ignorant M3 fanboy putting down anything that doesnt have an M badge on it. My comparison was between my personal M3 and the Black Series, not a GTS.
I wonder if it's necessary for you and few other persons (not to name them) to be offensive while commenting to others' replies. If I wanted to act similarly, I would have never ended a mean debate on this forum but I don't think it's suitable for civilized people, or is it?

I do admit though that the AMG Black Series is better than a Competition Package M3 but that wasn't the point. The title was discussing a Black Series AMG C-Coupe vs. M3 GTS.

I haven't driven either an M3 GTS, but if you were to drive the GTS against your M3, you would have found a huge difference between the two.
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      10-28-2012, 03:35 PM   #65
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C63 AMG BS was released quite late after the M3 GTS!
For sure it is a little bit faster due to its larger engine displacement, more power and torque, but a new generation of M models (M3 & M4) is almost ready for production
If Porsche has such a great new model as 911 Carrera S which has somehow a close price to the special models from BMW and Mercedes, but with only a 3,8L engine and 400 hp it's faster than its rivals, the new DTM triple Champ (BMW) must show its capabilities with the next models
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      10-28-2012, 05:09 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emtre View Post
It would have been interesting to see how Salo had done in the M3. I think that lap had been faster than the one he did in the merc.....
+1!

Even though the M3 GTS is more track oriented, the Merc looks amazing! The C63 is clearly the better street car.
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