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      10-05-2012, 01:14 PM   #23
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      10-05-2012, 02:18 PM   #24
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      10-15-2012, 04:08 PM   #25
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this is an old car and driver comparo from 08 with an m3,c63, and an rs4,not 5.the m3 won.old test,but still fun to read-

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests

Last edited by robbiedawg; 10-15-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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      10-16-2012, 07:02 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by robbiedawg View Post
this is an old car and driver comparo from 08 with an m3,c63, and an rs4,not 5.the m3 won.old test,but still fun to read-

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests
I liked this part, "It's no longer a homologation special, but next to the C63 and RS 4, this latest M3 offers the purest, least diluted, most involving, and best-in-class driver-and-machine relationship. Those characteristics are what made the M3 great, and they're still evident in a faster and more refined package."

The M3 badge was introduced in 1986.

The first AMG C class was introduced in 1995.

The first RS Audi came out in 1994.

Tradition still counts for something. The M philosophy started it all, and AMG and quattro GmbH models will always be just imitations.
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      10-16-2012, 08:16 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by MMMMM3 View Post
I liked this part, "It's no longer a homologation special, but next to the C63 and RS 4, this latest M3 offers the purest, least diluted, most involving, and best-in-class driver-and-machine relationship. Those characteristics are what made the M3 great, and they're still evident in a faster and more refined package."

The M3 badge was introduced in 1986.

The first AMG C class was introduced in 1995.

The first RS Audi came out in 1994.

Tradition still counts for something. The M philosophy started it all, and AMG and quattro GmbH models will always be just imitations.
Tradition absolutely counts for something and although AMG and Quattro might be imitations, I would rather buy an imititation if it's better than the original. BMW better step up their game on the F80-F82 because everyone caught up. Heck, if the rumors are true, the new upcoming Caddilac ATS-V might be the new king if GM get's the transmission right, because we know the power and handling will be right there.
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      10-16-2012, 08:20 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMMM3 View Post
The M3 badge was introduced in 1986.

The first AMG C class was introduced in 1995.

The first RS Audi came out in 1994.

Tradition still counts for something. The M philosophy started it all, and AMG and quattro GmbH models will always be just imitations.
Well, Audi introduced a sports homologation special well before BMW did, with the original Quattro in 1981. It wasn't called an "RS" but that's just semantics because back then Audi had a different nomenclature for their performance models. The original Quattro was a brilliant car and essentially revolutionized motorsports as we know it: it was the genesis of turbocharged AWD performance cars.

Their next special, the 1985 Quattro Sport was a Kevlar bodied 300BHP monster and served as the homologation special for the 500 and 600BHP Group B rally cars.

All of this while M was happily producing leather-clad executive sedans and big GT's, and when the M3 was merely a gleam in its designer's eye.


Don't be a badge whore, and learn your automotive history.
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      10-16-2012, 11:31 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMMM3 View Post
I liked this part, "It's no longer a homologation special, but next to the C63 and RS 4, this latest M3 offers the purest, least diluted, most involving, and best-in-class driver-and-machine relationship. Those characteristics are what made the M3 great, and they're still evident in a faster and more refined package."

The M3 badge was introduced in 1986.

The first AMG C class was introduced in 1995.

The first RS Audi came out in 1994.

Tradition still counts for something. The M philosophy started it all, and AMG and quattro GmbH models will always be just imitations.

But don't forget about the Mercedes 190 2.3-16's were homologated for it's own race series in the mid-80's - Senna competed in the Mercedes sponsored series at the ring in 1984. So the Mercedes factory effort deserves some credit before bringing AMG in house. The 190 2.3-16 can be considered a direct competitor to the original E30 M3.

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/bmw-...es-155359.html
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      10-19-2012, 06:43 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by adc View Post

All of this while M was happily producing leather-clad executive sedans and big GT's, and when the M3 was merely a gleam in its designer's eye.


Don't be a badge whore, and learn your automotive history.
The e90 M3 is a leather-clad executive sedan and a big GT. Thank you for the history lesson though, but did you have to call me a whore while making your point?

None of those quattros you mentioned were leather-clad executive sedans and big GTs (or maybe they were, in which case I feel an extension course in history coming on) where as this thread is about the c63 vs m3 vs rs5. All of which are... leather-clad executive sedans and big GTs. The Quattro just happens to be the least appealing, which just shows how much Audi has lost its way.

As for brand whoring, I lusted after an S4 Audi for years before I came to my senses and bought an M3 instead. I'd even buy the RS4 Avant now if I needed a wagon instead of a sedan, and if a c63 wagon wasn't available.

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Originally Posted by car_fan View Post
But don't forget about the Mercedes 190 2.3-16's were homologated for it's own race series in the mid-80's - Senna competed in the Mercedes sponsored series at the ring in 1984. So the Mercedes factory effort deserves some credit before bringing AMG in house. The 190 2.3-16 can be considered a direct competitor to the original E30 M3.

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/bmw-...es-155359.html
Good point. Maybe BMW succeeded more by being clearer and more consistent over time in terms of their branding of the M line of cars. Whereas Mercedes discovered/copied BMWs approach with their AMG branding. Audi are still confusing customers with S-line, S, and RS - diluting the image of RS and Quattro GmbH needlessly.
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      10-19-2012, 03:52 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by MMMMM3 View Post
Thank you for the history lesson though, but did you have to call me a whore while making your point?
My apologies, it was uncalled for.

Quote:
None of those quattros you mentioned were leather-clad executive sedans and big GTs (or maybe they were, in which case I feel an extension course in history coming on) where as this thread is about the c63 vs m3 vs rs5. All of which are... leather-clad executive sedans and big GTs. The Quattro just happens to be the least appealing, which just shows how much Audi has lost its way.
My point was this: the M3 started as a hardcore homologation special, at a time when Audi had had 6-7 years of producing such homologation specials. Basically at that time, BMW was copying Audi (and Benz which had come out with the 190 2.3-16) and not vice-versa.

Audi didn't lose it's way until the late 90's IMO, because in 94 it managed to come out with the RS2 which is a fantastic car...


Quote:
Maybe BMW succeeded more by being clearer and more consistent over time in terms of their branding of the M line of cars. Whereas Mercedes discovered/copied BMWs approach with their AMG branding. Audi are still confusing customers with S-line, S, and RS - diluting the image of RS and Quattro GmbH needlessly.
If you consider that the second M3 was no longer the raw racecar special, then you can argue that BMW lost its way with the M3 very rapidly.

And now they are copying Audi line for line, offering M-sport versions, M performance automobiles and fully fledged M cars.

I think we're looking at the end of an era at BMW... And shouldn't be pointing fingers at Audi, who by some accounts is producing better driving cars than BMW these days (at least with certain models).
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      10-19-2012, 04:33 PM   #32
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While the jury is still out on the F8X M3/M4 please tell me what Audi is a better driver's car than the M3 or the 1M? The only one that rivals it is a V10 R8 and it is twice the cost of an M3. The S4 and RS5? Puhhhleeassse......BORING!!
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      10-19-2012, 04:42 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bogie View Post
Owning a C63 and E92 M3, I personally would choose the C63. It has a demonic exhaust note (and a menacing cold start bark) and brutal power. After a tune it will leave any bolt on modified M3 in the dust. I also like the flat bottom steering wheel, gloss CF interior, and racing bucket seats.

On the other hand, the M3 feels MUCH lighter and has superior handling. The M3's tranny is also much better, and the carbon roof is a sick. So basically, if you are a twisties kind of guy, get an M3. If you want to run consistent 11's @120 with just a tune get a C63.

RS4/5....are typically under performers. Stock RS Audis are slightly slower then the competition and the weight distribution has always negatively affected the handling.

In an ideal world, I would be driving a GTR. BUT, I just have to keep telling myself....happy wife happy life.


L-
However, because they are AWD, the can put power to the ground much better than either the C63 or M3. Bottom line is that these are all equal cars. Throw in the Lexus ISF while you are at it. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Just depends what is most important to you. The steering, suspension, and overall responsiveness of the M3 is far superior to the RS4/5. However, in my previous RS4, I could turn all the traction stuff off, hammer the throttle without thinking about it, and the car would still track perfectly through every maneuver. You can not do that in the M3, C63 or ISF.

It's okay to have your favorite, but give every car its proper praises.
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Last edited by LarThaL; 10-19-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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      10-19-2012, 06:53 PM   #34
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I definitely miss the traction my S4 had as I have a tough time getting the power down consistently in my C63 so I'm all for AWD. Sounds like AMG might be headed down that road. I would love to see some M cars with AWD in the future!

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11210194...-hp-and-4matic
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      10-20-2012, 09:34 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alms211 View Post
While the jury is still out on the F8X M3/M4 please tell me what Audi is a better driver's car than the M3 or the 1M? The only one that rivals it is a V10 R8 and it is twice the cost of an M3. The S4 and RS5? Puhhhleeassse......BORING!!
I wasn't talking about the M3, it's still the best in class IMO. But that's on the old platform which was still optimized for handling and feel, not comfort like the new ones. I read an interview with one of the chassis engineers of the F30 who stated that the target this time around was comfort and eliminating the complaints about rough ride on run flats, and to just match the previous generation for handling dynamics. When queried on that last part, he basically shrugged...

In recent comparos, the S4 was chosen over the 335, the S6 over the M5 (!!!), the A6 over the 5 series, and many reviewers thought the E90 would still win a comparo against the F30. It's not a one-off freak accident, it's a growing trend. Audi has strived towards making their cars sportier, and BMW to make them more comfortable. At some point the trends will cross, and that point is probably here already...

Personally I would never consider the RS5. It's heavier, less exciting, more expensive, lacks a manual transmission option and it's significantly worse packaged than the M3 (rear seats are a joke and this matters for someone with kids). But my next purchase might not automatically be the next gen M3.
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      10-20-2012, 11:10 AM   #36
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Agree I have a lot of love for the C63, but the M3 drivetrain just kills the competition. the numbers on paper do not mean shit to the M3 it puts down all the power its given and I'd rather have a car that puts down all the power properly then a car that breaks tire every time i want to punch it.
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      10-21-2012, 07:07 AM   #37
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Having owned an e92 m3 which was the greatest car I had owned. Enjoyed taking it to the track until i drove a spec boxster which made the m3 feel suddenly fat and slow to get out of its way. I had to go with the driving pleasure and agility of a mid engined Porsche. Now I will admit it is not the best daily driver but so much fun for up too 2 people. Now I have 4 month old baby and have placed an order for a c63 Amg coupe. 481 hp, 443 ft lbs torque, four seats and the last design to see the m156 motor it was a no brainier.
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      10-21-2012, 09:14 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92livin View Post
Agree I have a lot of love for the C63, but the M3 drivetrain just kills the competition. the numbers on paper do not mean shit to the M3 it puts down all the power its given and I'd rather have a car that puts down all the power properly then a car that breaks tire every time i want to punch it.
The C63 breaks tires due to torque. If the M3 had as much torque it would do the same thing. Not sure how the M3's drivetrain kills the competition... the M3 puts down power well because of lower torque and a flat curve.

Although I do love the C63, I find there is something about the M3 that I miss. It is almost like I wish I had both cars to go back and forth... I think that says something about how great both cars are. The M3 is so "smooth" feeling (I can't describe it better) and the C63 is more "brutish". I don't mean relative to how they drive but more their character. Part of it, I think, is the brute power and sound of the C63 vs the quieter and more fluid M3. I love the character of both. If I wrote off my car today and had to pick a new car again, it would be very hard to do for me. I wouldn't want to give up the sound/power of the C63 but I would love to get back the subjective feeling of the M3. They are such similar cars in many ways and their differences are more just a different feeling than anything else.

I also fear that the current generation M3/C63 will be the last of a unique breed... the engines in these cars make them special and that is all about to change for both cars
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      10-21-2012, 01:38 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
The C63 breaks tires due to torque. If the M3 had as much torque it would do the same thing. Not sure how the M3's drivetrain kills the competition... the M3 puts down power well because of lower torque and a flat curve.

Although I do love the C63, I find there is something about the M3 that I miss. It is almost like I wish I had both cars to go back and forth... I think that says something about how great both cars are. The M3 is so "smooth" feeling (I can't describe it better) and the C63 is more "brutish". I don't mean relative to how they drive but more their character. Part of it, I think, is the brute power and sound of the C63 vs the quieter and more fluid M3. I love the character of both. If I wrote off my car today and had to pick a new car again, it would be very hard to do for me. I wouldn't want to give up the sound/power of the C63 but I would love to get back the subjective feeling of the M3. They are such similar cars in many ways and their differences are more just a different feeling than anything else.

I also fear that the current generation M3/C63 will be the last of a unique breed... the engines in these cars make them special and that is all about to change for both cars

Amen
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      10-21-2012, 01:42 PM   #40
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I also fear that the current generation M3/C63 will be the last of a unique breed... the engines in these cars make them special and that is all about to change for both cars
100% agreed.

At least the next-gen AMG C-class will still have 8 cylinders, albeit slightly downsized and force fed by two snails. The raucous AMG sound will also be there, even if it's not as magical as the 6.2L.

I really wish BMW was stuffing the S63tu into the next-gen M3/4.
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      10-21-2012, 04:49 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ///Montreal3 View Post
100% agreed.

At least the next-gen AMG C-class will still have 8 cylinders, albeit slightly downsized and force fed by two snails. The raucous AMG sound will also be there, even if it's not as magical as the 6.2L.

I really wish BMW was stuffing the S63tu into the next-gen M3/4.
Don't you worry about BMW. They are dedicated to true performance. They will probably record the sound of the next M3 engine and then use the car's stereo to play that sound in the cabin. No, BMW hasn't lost its soul at all.
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      10-21-2012, 05:44 PM   #42
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M3 every time hands down, just saying..
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