Cold Start Engine Knock / Rattle

[mrad01]

Originally Posted by M3PO

UPDATE! Changing the VANOS units seems to have solved the issue. I let it sit for about 4 days (the longest I've ever let it sit) and I didn't hear it at all!

Great news! Keeps us posted and give us an update after a couple of weeks...

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

Yay, always nice to see a resolution that has a pinpointed cause.

The E46 m3 and e39 M5 are notorious for vanos noise especially in higher mileage - haven't heard of too many e9x M vanos issues, but it could be a matter of age/mileage.

We might hear a lot about this 5 years down the road...

This is my first BMW but I am aware that there have been VANOS issues in the past. I suspect that this will become more common.

Originally Posted by mrad01

Great news! Keeps us posted and give us an update after a couple of weeks...

Will do!

[quackman]

I'm pretty sure like 2 years ago I had the "GGGRKKK" noise a second after startup during morning starts when it was really cold out for a few months. But it didn't sound very loud so I kinda ignored it. It's been at least a year since I've last heard it, so this thread leaves me wondering: what kind of damage would such a noise eventually do? Mine seems to have gone away on its own.

[Mbauer]

Originally Posted by M3PO

This is my first BMW but I am aware that there have been VANOS issues in the past. I suspect that this will become more common.



Will do!

Vanos on the S65 is waaaayyyy different than S54 and older bmw engines.

[Quag's M]

Originally Posted by M3PO

UPDATE! Changing the VANOS units seems to have solved the issue. I let it sit for about 4 days (the longest I've ever let it sit) and I didn't hear it at all!

Thanks for the good news; my 2012 has the same sound. Taking it in soon.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by quackman

I'm pretty sure like 2 years ago I had the "GGGRKKK" noise a second after startup during morning starts when it was really cold out for a few months. But it didn't sound very loud so I kinda ignored it. It's been at least a year since I've last heard it, so this thread leaves me wondering: what kind of damage would such a noise eventually do? Mine seems to have gone away on its own.

I believe that the noise is timing chain slap. I don't think that it could really do any harm.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by Mbauer

Vanos on the S65 is waaaayyyy different than S54 and older bmw engines.

I never suggested that it wasn't. All I am saying is, BMW has a history of VANOS problems and as these cars age and/or people begin to pay more attention because of threads like this, more owners will notice this. It's a subtle noise that's only slightly different than normal VANOS noise and you won't hear it if you DD your car.

[Mike Benvo]

This is crazy.. I watched a video I took 5,000 miles ago, and I think I can hear that sound



Listen closely at 16 seconds.. do you think its the same thing?

Car drives absolutely perfect, no noises afterward

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

This is crazy.. I watched a video I took awhile ago, and I think I can hear that sound



Listen closely at 16 seconds.. do you think its the same thing?

Tough to tell. Could be.

[kautiongsr]

Originally Posted by M3PO

I believe that the noise is timing chain slap. I don't think that it could really do any harm.

On most cars I agree with you... The fix for e39 m5 was they added an accumulator in the vanos line to hold and store pressure... I haven't seen anything about this at the dealer on the s85 but I will ask some other techs I know

[MP0WER]

I feel like i've finally found a support group!!

I'm picking up my 09 E92 M3 tomorrow from it's latest trip to the dealer. For the last 2 years or so i've been getting the metallic chatter noise just after cold start. Mine doens't happen everytime. Happens about 40% of the time i cold start.

The dealer has been unable to replicate the noise so i made some iPhone videos of it happening. The last time it was in for this issue i met with the shop foreman and the BMW field tech. I played the videos for them and they first thought it was an exhaust flap. But upon leaving it with them for 3 days they determined that because they couldn't get the noise to happen when they started it in gear, the noise was normal for BMWs. They tell me it's gears in the tranny clanking together from the vibrations on start up. They tell me it's only on cold starts because the oil is not in the right place when it's cold.

This was an unacceptable explanation for me. Luckily for me my family has been friends with the dealership owners for quite some time. Even more lucky for me their director of service is the same guy who i believe started up their motorsports division back in 1996 when i had my 95 M3. So he and i go way back and he actually listens to me and knows that i'm quite in tune with my cars and what's going on with them. He's very thorough.

Unfortuantly he's only been able to hear the noise from my videos. I don't think that the volume and violent sound can be fully appreciated without hearing it in person. I mean i've had a total stranger standing 5 parking spots away from me comment with "that doesn't sound good!" when i started my car one time.

Anyhow, i'm glad to have found this thread and will be taking some of your findings into him tomorrow when i pick up the car. I know that there is no way this is a normal sound coming from my transmission and i'm sure once he hears it in person he'll agree and get to the bottom of it.

I'll update with progress.

[luvyrteeth]

Does anyone know if the noise will decrease engine or car's life? My warranty is expired and dealer states can not duplicate noise when I took the car in before warranty expired in march 2012.

[deepfriedbutter]

Well...I have this noise for sure. My dilemma now is that I was out of warranty on 6/6/12 and have 51400 on the clock.

Does anybody know if I have a case with BMW to goodwill? I'm thinking I will record the sound every time I start the engine up for the next week or so, but I would like to contact someone to get the ball rolling first. Any ideas where I should start?

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by deepfriedbutter

Well...I have this noise for sure. My dilemma now is that I was out of warranty on 6/6/12 and have 51400 on the clock.

Does anybody know if I have a case with BMW to goodwill? I'm thinking I will record the sound every time I start the engine up for the next week or so, but I would like to contact someone to get the ball rolling first. Any ideas where I should start?

I definitely have it too. And I heard it on 3 different M3's as well. Always happens if you let it sit for awhile.

I wonder if it's normal - just the vanos unit pressurizing or something like that. Still runs stronger than ever.

Is it worth taking it in?

[m3an]

I didn't read this whole thread but FYI the s65 vanos is nothing at all like the s54 or e39 m5 system and as such should not be plagued with issues.


Also most every car when started cold after sitting has an audible rattle from the valvetrain as there is no oil on it and it takes a few seconds to pressurize and reach the head. I used to unplug the fuel pump on my cars after doing oil changes and crank the car to build oil pressure and eliminate any cold start rattles.

Also too many people worry about running cars on this forum. Worry when the car shuts off and won't start.

[racedoc11]

Mine used to do the same noise until the dealer changed the Vanos Tensioners Not the the whole unite. Now the noise is gone...I can post part numbers later on if any one interested.

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I definitely have it too. And I heard it on 3 different M3's as well. Always happens if you let it sit for awhile.

I wonder if it's normal - just the vanos unit pressurizing or something like that. Still runs stronger than ever.

Is it worth taking it in?

[Bubajay]

Originally Posted by jdgamble

Is there such a thing as a 2007 E92 M3???

Haven't you played Gran Turismo? It is a 2007 model year E92 M3 in that game.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by m3an

I didn't read this whole thread but FYI the s65 vanos is nothing at all like the s54 or e39 m5 system and as such should not be plagued with issues.


Also most every car when started cold after sitting has an audible rattle from the valvetrain as there is no oil on it and it takes a few seconds to pressurize and reach the head. I used to unplug the fuel pump on my cars after doing oil changes and crank the car to build oil pressure and eliminate any cold start rattles.

Also too many people worry about running cars on this forum. Worry when the car shuts off and won't start.

This is probably sage advice.. And I suppose it's worth considering that in a car with sensors galore, the issue doesn't trigger a check engine light. Engine runs flawlessly.

I had the car at the dealer last weekend in an attempt to get them to formally document and diagnose the issue. I reported it under warranty twice, documented with a video. So 5 cold starts later at the dealer, including a few with me on site, and no noise. Happens almost every morning, just not while at the dealer. Damn car.

They searched every BMW service database available to them in an effort to find a related bulletin, notice, something pursuant to this noise. Nothing found.

Originally Posted by racedoc11

Mine used to do the same noise until the dealer changed the Vanos Tensioners Not the the whole unite. Now the noise is gone...I can post part numbers later on if any one interested.

Yes, please post. Thanks.

[W///]

I think we have to make sure this thread stays on topic because the OP came in with what sounded like a bearing issue. As he is idling and reving, you hear that metallic sound. If that is your case, that's probably a big issue.

The second problem is the clank during start up. That's completely seperate than the main bearing problem. I have that problem as well, but usually only when I start up on Monday after leaving the car in the garage all weekend. I think as long as it's not a prolongue sounds, I'm not too worried... for now. And my car definitely doesn't clank as loud as some of the videos on here.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by deepfriedbutter

Well...I have this noise for sure. My dilemma now is that I was out of warranty on 6/6/12 and have 51400 on the clock.

Does anybody know if I have a case with BMW to goodwill? I'm thinking I will record the sound every time I start the engine up for the next week or so, but I would like to contact someone to get the ball rolling first. Any ideas where I should start?

I would at least try. You can send them the examples from this thread and the videos in this thread in conjunction with your own. Maybe they could look up my puma case in the system? At least in my case, BMW acknowledged this as a real issue.

If they can't or won't help you with a goodwill fix, I say that you enjoy the car. This issue hasn't proven to be anything more than an annoyance at this point.

As an update, this sound has not returned. I don't even hear a hint of it after 10-14 days of sitting. That said, I do get some clickity-clack rattling noise from the VANOS or timing system from time to time but I believe that it is what is generally accepted as normal.

[Mike Benvo]

Originally Posted by W///

I think we have to make sure this thread stays on topic because the OP came in with what sounded like a bearing issue. As he is idling and reving, you hear that metallic sound. If that is your case, that's probably a big issue.

The second problem is the clank during start up. That's completely seperate than the main bearing problem. I have that problem as well, but usually only when I start up on Monday after leaving the car in the garage all weekend. I think as long as it's not a prolongue sounds, I'm not too worried... for now. And my car definitely doesn't clank as loud as some of the videos on here.

+1.

I'm going to get some coffee now and am going to record the start and post it. I definitely don't have any bearing noise at all, just the click sound on start. After the initial start there is zero abnormal noise. I'm almost convinced this is normal because of the frequency of cars I have heard it on.

It seems to be something related to mileage. For example, I have 44K miles. A customers car that I did a CIC retrofit had about 52K, and his sound was more audible. A friend of mine has 28K on his, and you can totally hear it although it's not as loud.

Edit: Ok looks like I didn't post before getting coffee... So I took a video, and it did make the noise, but then I saw my iphone 5 rattle off the manifold and quickly turned the car off. Thank god the phone didn't get hurt or lost in there! I have a video I can post, but it's not very good. You can clearly hear the rattle though. I started it after retrieving my phone and there was no noise at all. So it's only after letting the car sit for at-least a day that it will make it, otherwise it's not there. I've asked technicians about this before and they claim that it's normal and the vanos pressurizing. I think we need to start another thread on this with a poll where everyone posts a video of their car starting after it was sitting for a couple of days, along with year, mileage, etc..

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

+1.

I'm going to get some coffee now and am going to record the start and post it. I definitely don't have any bearing noise at all, just the click sound on start. After the initial start there is zero abnormal noise. I'm almost convinced this is normal because of the frequency of cars I have heard it on.

It seems to be something related to mileage. For example, I have 44K miles. A customers car that I did a CIC retrofit had about 52K, and his sound was more audible. A friend of mine has 28K on his, and you can totally hear it although it's not as loud.

Edit: Ok looks like I didn't post before getting coffee... So I took a video, and it did make the noise, but then I saw my iphone 5 rattle off the manifold and quickly turned the car off. Thank god the phone didn't get hurt or lost in there! I have a video I can post, but it's not very good. You can clearly hear the rattle though. I started it after retrieving my phone and there was no noise at all. So it's only after letting the car sit for at-least a day that it will make it, otherwise it's not there. I've asked technicians about this before and they claim that it's normal and the vanos pressurizing. I think we need to start another thread on this with a poll where everyone posts a video of their car starting after it was sitting for a couple of days, along with year, mileage, etc..

Hey Mike, please feel free to contribute and post your video over here. Thread is dedicated to the subject: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=705895&page=3