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      10-15-2012, 12:28 AM   #1
JetBlackE46
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Unethical Vendor - BMS (Burger Motorsports bad review)

*** EDIT UPDATE 10/16/12 ***

Apparently BMS is banned from posting in this forum. The exact reason I don't know but I'm not surprised. They have responded and basically denied trying to copy my product and blamed it on their webmaster for using my pictures.


*** EDIT UPDATE***

BMS has removed my pictures from their listing. For those still interested, here are the archived listings for you to judge. Thanks to all those who support me.

My listing:



Their Listings:







Hello, my name is Nelson and I’ve been an avid BMW enthusiast for many years now. A few years ago I saw that many E90 manual transmissions owners wanted an easy to install clutch stop for their vehicles. I was able to design and develop such a product after many months of R&D. I began to sell these clutch stops on eBay (ID: pickyeater334) as a hobby. I pride myself on selling a quality product and giving each customer the same service I would expect as a fellow BMW enthusiast. If you’ve dealt with me before, I thank you and I’m sure you can attest to both the quality of my design and to my prompt service.

BMS – not a BIMMERPOST sponsor, but a company I once considered “reputable” has stolen the pictures in my listing and called it their own.

Here’s a link to my eBay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230519560074...84.m1555.l2649

Here’s a link to the BMS listing using my pictures:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251167551669...84.m1423.l2649

The worse part of it is that, BMS had first made a copy cat clutch stop (and also stole my install pictures) a year ago and called my design inferior as part of their marketing campaign. But now they’re marketing my design as more “sturdy” and only selling it on eBay and undercutting me on price.

I think it’s crazy for a vendor to knock off someone else’s product with something inferior and call it better only to realize customer's have figure this out on their own. Then steal all of my pictures in an attempt to fool customers with their "new" product.

Here’s a link to their first copy cat clutch stop by BMS:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/250989235114...84.m1423.l2649

It’s basically the same design as mine but they used rubber adjustment shims instead of metal. I’m sure many of you have purchased the BMS stopper and are happy with it and that’s great. After all it is based on my design. I’m not going to get into it here but if you search you’ll find that users do in fact find my design with the metal adjustment shims to be more solid feeling or complain that they didn’t feel much of a difference when they installed the BMS one. Many have switched over to my stopper after trying the BMS one for several months. I’ve been told they wish they knew about my original one first.

If BMS reads this and decides to delete or edit their listings, it’s ok because I’ve already archived those pages. To me it’s pretty shady business practice. I’ve already contacted them and expressed my concerns but they basically said so what and they had no knowledge of using my pictures.

The “right” thing to do would be for them to stop selling these clutch stops and stop using my pictures.
I just want my fellow enthusiasts to know the type of unethical behavior this particular vendor is capable of.

BMS is welcome to join in this thread to say they didn't copy my design and didn't have any knowledge of using my pictures as part of their promotional materials.

Last edited by JetBlackE46; 10-17-2012 at 11:24 PM.
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      10-15-2012, 12:30 AM   #2
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Did you patent your invention? Did you copy right your images?
If so, seek legal remedy
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      10-15-2012, 12:52 AM   #3
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Who is BMS?
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      10-15-2012, 07:37 AM   #4
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      10-15-2012, 07:42 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yolkster View Post
Did you patent your invention? Did you copy right your images?
If so, seek legal remedy
+1
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      10-15-2012, 07:59 AM   #6
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      10-15-2012, 08:11 AM   #7
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sorry man, but you didn't invent or patent a clutch stop.

unless you copywrited the images, there is probably nothing you can do.

unethical? yes. illegal? probably not.
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      10-15-2012, 08:26 AM   #8
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Actually, about 10 years ago an Ebay seller was using pictures of my Jeep in an ad to sell their products. I sent them an email saying to stop using my pictures in their ads or at least give me something in return. They offered me free products. The ads actually made my Jeep famous on the Jeep Forums and I got free parts. I guess it was a win/win situation. OP, I hope you get something out of this.

Last edited by Ghetto2315; 10-15-2012 at 08:35 AM.
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      10-15-2012, 08:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
sorry man, but you didn't invent or patent a clutch stop.

unless you copywrited the images, there is probably nothing you can do.

unethical? yes. illegal? probably not.
"Copyright is automatically granted to the creator of any image. That copyright holder must specifically declare the image as free to use."

So i think if anything there is a infringmenet on the picture use
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      10-15-2012, 09:47 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boi222 View Post
"Copyright is automatically granted to the creator of any image. That copyright holder must specifically declare the image as free to use."

So i think if anything there is a infringmenet on the picture use
^ someone more knowledgeable than me.

i don't know if copyright infringement can really lead to anything. maybe they will take their own picture of the exact same thing?

sucks man, i'm sure its irritating, but its not like they are making thousands and thousands of dollars off these. you'd probably burn more money in a legal process than you will make off these if you could get them to stop using your pictures or replicating your design. i think its one of those "pick your battles" kind of things, but i was already wrong in this thread already. i'm just throwing out ideas.
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      10-15-2012, 02:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone28 View Post
Who is BMS?
Guys who created the JB3 etc.

OP, good luck. Definitely not acceptable.
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      10-15-2012, 04:59 PM   #12
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just playing Devil's Advocate, but is there anyway you can prove you made it first? that you took the pictures?

I didn't actually go through all the links, so if it was somehow clear in those, then I apologize in advance for not looking into it thoroughly before asking the above questions

Also, if someone isn't a paying sponsor here.. are they still a "vendor"? I'm confused on that part.

You should patent any product you intend to sell. The patent may take time to go through, but patent pending is better than no patent at all
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      10-15-2012, 07:23 PM   #13
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Tough call. Just based on Ebay views, it looks like yours has been on the market for much longer. Does this mean BMS copied your design? Possibly, but not positively. If yours truly came to market first, then their "redesign" is certainly thievery in my book. They should have just stuck to their original washerless design - especially since they feel it is a superior design.
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      10-15-2012, 09:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persian54 View Post
You should patent any product you intend to sell. The patent may take time to go through, but patent pending is better than no patent at all
he can't patent it because its an item that has been in existence for a very long time.
patents cost around $20k and its for a $9 contraption... yea right.
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      10-15-2012, 11:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
he can't patent it because its an item that has been in existence for a very long time.
patents cost around $20k and its for a $9 contraption... yea right.
I meant in general
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      10-16-2012, 12:35 AM   #16
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BMS has removed my pictures from their listing. For those still interested, here are the archived listings for you to judge. Thanks to all those who support me.

My listing:



Their Listings:



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      10-16-2012, 07:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persian54 View Post
just playing Devil's Advocate, but is there anyway you can prove you made it first? that you took the pictures?

I didn't actually go through all the links, so if it was somehow clear in those, then I apologize in advance for not looking into it thoroughly before asking the above questions

Also, if someone isn't a paying sponsor here.. are they still a "vendor"? I'm confused on that part.

You should patent any product you intend to sell. The patent may take time to go through, but patent pending is better than no patent at all
Seriously?

He doesn't need a patent. BMS has no right to use his pictures, with or without a patent. If he wants his pictures free to use, he must declare it, which he clearly hasn't.
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      10-16-2012, 08:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
Seriously?

He doesn't need a patent. BMS has no right to use his pictures, with or without a patent. If he wants his pictures free to use, he must declare it, which he clearly hasn't.
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      10-17-2012, 03:14 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
Seriously?

He doesn't need a patent. BMS has no right to use his pictures, with or without a patent. If he wants his pictures free to use, he must declare it, which he clearly hasn't.
The patent was more of a general thing than for a $5 clutch stop


I never saw any proof (If listed and I missed it, then my apologies), proving that he took the pictures and they're his property (meaning he didn't take them from someone else)

If all this drama started because of pictures... Then I think it's too much. Then again, I don't care enough about this to read into it, so my opinion isn't the most informed.

Regardless, I don't personally put too much trust in a member with few posts and no feedback. This is a general "rule" I have, as I feel people with more reputation are simply more trustable. This isn't just valid for online forums.

I didn't see any proof that he owns the pictures, or even the eBay store. If proof was presented and I simply missed it, then that's just my ignorance (due to, as I sad previously, because I simply don't care about this enough to really read into it).

At least it seems the pictures (whoever they belong to) showed the products were correctly installed.

Having things improperly installed can really be a hassle in more ways than one from my personal experience.
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      10-17-2012, 03:42 AM   #20
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To the OP something that is very advisable in the future use water marks in your pictures. Makes the whole copy and paste thing a little harder.

As for your design , it basically how the world works. Unless you have lots of money to actually patent it. Sucks though. And since they changed their pictures it pretty hard to go after them for anything.

Looks like you had one good idea there though.
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      10-17-2012, 01:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crzywhiteman01 View Post
To the OP something that is very advisable in the future use water marks in your pictures. Makes the whole copy and paste thing a little harder.

As for your design , it basically how the world works. Unless you have lots of money to actually patent it. Sucks though. And since they changed their pictures it pretty hard to go after them for anything.

Looks like you had one good idea there though.
That's actually a good idea. Get those watermarks that run slanted across the image maybe 3 or 4 times, but they're semi-clear so the image is still visible.
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