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      10-11-2012, 09:08 PM   #45
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Nice. My buddy also had the plates installed and also noticed a slight height increase in the front.
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      10-11-2012, 09:23 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Nice. My buddy also had the plates installed and also noticed a slight height increase in the front.
With the Vorshlag plates you are in theory installing a brand new upper mount and we have seen OE rubber mounts M or non-M loses height over time. So you will gain some height when a new top mount has been installed.

See photo...
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      10-12-2012, 07:46 AM   #47
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So the vorshlag spring perch has a significant amount of rubber underneath the aluminum plate? The pics on the first page led me to believe that the rubber cover is just a thin piece of rubber which won't really compress much.
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      10-12-2012, 10:23 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
So the vorshlag spring perch has a significant amount of rubber underneath the aluminum plate? The pics on the first page led me to believe that the rubber cover is just a thin piece of rubber which won't really compress much.
The vorshlag plates do not come with the rubber isolator for spring perch. The rubber isolator from OEM perch was re-used.
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      10-12-2012, 11:34 AM   #49
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OK, got it.
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      10-12-2012, 04:17 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ortho281 View Post
The vorshlag plates do not come with the rubber isolator for spring perch. The rubber isolator from OEM perch was re-used.
Yes, that is correct.

Here is the installation instructions from Vorshlag:

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag...9801&k=T8sC2qT
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      10-13-2012, 09:22 AM   #51
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Update! It's been 2 days since having new Vorshlag camber plates installed and I'm very pleased with the ride quality. The new plates are actually quieter than OEM spring perches. When riding over uneven expansion joints or centerline markers, the struts no longer makes tapping noise that OEM perches used to. I will be having alignment done today and I'm looking forward to my next track day.
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      10-15-2012, 05:37 PM   #52
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I'm looking into this option as this will likely be my next mod, and shortly thereafter I'll likely get a square setup of 18" wheels to get more front grip -- slippery slope!

However (and apologies if this is answered elsewhere, I looked but didn't find anything), while I understand that maximum negative camber can be affected by several factors, I'm curious what the RANGE of camber adjustment is. For example, if I installed these plates, set them to their minimum setting, and got an alignment for -2 degrees, what would my camber be after switching them to max camber? And how much does toe change from minimum to maximum?

And lastly, would you happen to know how much camber I'd get on my otherwise stock suspension setup (EDC, 19" 220Ms) and, if different, with a set of 18" wheels for 255 width tires all around?
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      10-15-2012, 09:02 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
I'm looking into this option as this will likely be my next mod, and shortly thereafter I'll likely get a square setup of 18" wheels to get more front grip -- slippery slope!

However (and apologies if this is answered elsewhere, I looked but didn't find anything), while I understand that maximum negative camber can be affected by several factors, I'm curious what the RANGE of camber adjustment is. For example, if I installed these plates, set them to their minimum setting, and got an alignment for -2 degrees, what would my camber be after switching them to max camber? And how much does toe change from minimum to maximum?

And lastly, would you happen to know how much camber I'd get on my otherwise stock suspension setup (EDC, 19" 220Ms) and, if different, with a set of 18" wheels for 255 width tires all around?
If you started with a minimum camber of -2 degrees your maximum camber would be around 3.5 degrees depending on how low our suspension is. I noted a min/max camber of 1.6/3.1 degrees with Eibach springs.

Since I went with a static setup for both track/street, I did not bother to check the change in toe at max camber. From what I've read on other post, a 1.5 degree camber change will result in about a 0.5 degree toe change.

I was able to get a max camber of -1.6 degree with pins pulled and lowered suspension of .75 inch. On a stock setup you will get less, maybe around -1.3 degrees with pins pulled.

I attached my street/track alignment specs. Since most of my HPDE's are solo, alignment was done with me sitting in car. The spec sheet however, was printed with me out of car and shows left/right change in camber. The camber with me sitting in car is roughly F -2.2/-2.2 and R -2.0/-2.0. Toe was set to almost zero to minimize tire wear from excessive camber.
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Last edited by ortho281; 10-15-2012 at 09:09 PM.
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      10-15-2012, 09:46 PM   #54
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^ Thanks!!

I'm surprised that the most negative camber you can get on a bone stock setup is -1.3 and even that requires pulling pins -- so much for getting -2 as a baseline! But (and I now realize I didn't word this well in my original question) what I meant to ask was what's the maximum negative camber I could expect with my 220M wheels, EDC, these plates on their maximum setting, and no other changes to the suspension, not even pulling pins if I can avoid it? My last alignment sheet shows me at -1, and from what I'm reading it doesn't look like you can get much more than that completely stock, but if just adding these camber plates can get me to -2.5 for the track, I think I'd be happy with that.

Sorry if these questions are rudimentary, but this would be my first foray into suspension mods and while I'm familiar with some of the concepts and purposes, I'm less informed as to what particular details about the rest of the car's setup affect possible outcomes/potential.
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      10-15-2012, 10:22 PM   #55
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Someone just ran his E90 M3 with these plates at TWS this past weekend. I chalked his tires and the rears got more wear on the outside than the fronts.

The front axle was -2.5 and not sure what the rear was.
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      10-15-2012, 10:49 PM   #56
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mine go in the 30th. think i may try and get out on the 4th for a little testing.
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      10-16-2012, 12:07 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
^ Thanks!!

I'm surprised that the most negative camber you can get on a bone stock setup is -1.3 and even that requires pulling pins -- so much for getting -2 as a baseline! But (and I now realize I didn't word this well in my original question) what I meant to ask was what's the maximum negative camber I could expect with my 220M wheels, EDC, these plates on their maximum setting, and no other changes to the suspension, not even pulling pins if I can avoid it? My last alignment sheet shows me at -1, and from what I'm reading it doesn't look like you can get much more than that completely stock, but if just adding these camber plates can get me to -2.5 for the track, I think I'd be happy with that.

Sorry if these questions are rudimentary, but this would be my first foray into suspension mods and while I'm familiar with some of the concepts and purposes, I'm less informed as to what particular details about the rest of the car's setup affect possible outcomes/potential.
The pins (1 each side) are located on the stock spring perches. So when you swap them for camber plate, you will no longer have pins. An additional +-0.5 deg of camber adjustment is possible with camber plates by also adjusting the strut tower brace. You will want to use this adjustment to match left/right camber and set starting camber (street camber) prior to checking your full track camber. Also set the toe slightly toe-in to minimize excessive toe-out in track setting.

A good starting camber with the Vorshlag plate is -1.0 deg which gives you -2.5 deg track camber. If going for a static setup, -2.0 to -2.2 deg might be a good compromise. You will also need to max the rear camber to limit the oversteer tendency of having more front grip.
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      10-16-2012, 12:13 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Someone just ran his E90 M3 with these plates at TWS this past weekend. I chalked his tires and the rears got more wear on the outside than the fronts.

The front axle was -2.5 and not sure what the rear was.
James, how did he like the Vorshlag plates? Was he running square setup, streets or R-comps?
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      10-16-2012, 12:21 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ortho281 View Post
If you started with a minimum camber of -2 degrees your maximum camber would be around 3.5 degrees depending on how low our suspension is. I noted a min/max camber of 1.6/3.1 degrees with Eibach springs.

Since I went with a static setup for both track/street, I did not bother to check the change in toe at max camber. From what I've read on other post, a 1.5 degree camber change will result in about a 0.5 degree toe change.

I was able to get a max camber of -1.6 degree with pins pulled and lowered suspension of .75 inch. On a stock setup you will get less, maybe around -1.3 degrees with pins pulled.

I attached my street/track alignment specs. Since most of my HPDE's are solo, alignment was done with me sitting in car. The spec sheet however, was printed with me out of car and shows left/right change in camber. The camber with me sitting in car is roughly F -2.2/-2.2 and R -2.0/-2.0. Toe was set to almost zero to minimize tire wear from excessive camber.
To combat camber wear you actually want slightly more toe-in.

With the rear toe-in near zero you may experience corner exit oversteer so test and add more toe-in if needed.
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      10-16-2012, 06:58 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ortho281 View Post
James, how did he like the Vorshlag plates? Was he running square setup, streets or R-comps?
265/35R18 PSS on all 4 corners. He like the plates but they make his little tires look even smaller. This definitely is not a mod for good looks.

He noticed a significant difference, the car gripped much better in the corners and makes the tail wag a bit more. Just gotta stay in the throttle to keep the rear in the rear.
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      10-16-2012, 08:25 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Someone just ran his E90 M3 with these plates at TWS this past weekend. I chalked his tires and the rears got more wear on the outside than the fronts.

The front axle was -2.5 and not sure what the rear was.
I was actually at TWS this past weekend. I've been looking for a Monte Carlo Blue M3 and never found one, but I definitely remember a supercharged 330 so I'll have to say hi next time, and I think I know the M3 you're talking about that ran those plates; didn't realize they were the Vorshlag.
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      10-16-2012, 09:46 AM   #62
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I'm still hearing some conflicting theories here. I don't drive my cart much on the street but still don't want excessive wear at either the track on outer edges or street on inner. Also want to maximize overall grip without inducing a oversteer monster. My plan was to run a static set up of 2.5 neg front and 2.0 rear with a neutral or zero toe. Am I gonna get what I want or what should I tweek?
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      10-16-2012, 11:10 AM   #63
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It was the black sedan that had the vorshlag plates. I saw a blue M3 in the red group but never saw where you parked...was that you?
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      10-16-2012, 11:14 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriszeh View Post
I'm still hearing some conflicting theories here. I don't drive my cart much on the street but still don't want excessive wear at either the track on outer edges or street on inner. Also want to maximize overall grip without inducing a oversteer monster. My plan was to run a static set up of 2.5 neg front and 2.0 rear with a neutral or zero toe. Am I gonna get what I want or what should I tweek?
If you go to the track frequently then excessive wear from street driving is a non issue. Unless you're running on rock wheels fred flinstone style, you'll wear out the tires from track use. If you run a lot of camber on the street, the insides wear. But on the track, most of your wear comes on the outside shoulder. A square setup will extend tire life significantly. I try to stick to this rotation with directional tires:

Swap front to rear
Flip all 4 tires/same corner
Swap front to rear

...then I haven't gotten past that.

If you run assymetrical tires (like PSS)...I'd just rotate the best tire to the corner which will see the most wear and then the worst tire to the corner that will see the least amount of wear. But I'm not an expert on that.

This is what my E46 tires looked like after 50 sessions + 2 wet days + 6k street miles. I didn't even flip them...probably could have gotten a couple more sessions.

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      10-16-2012, 01:03 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
To combat camber wear you actually want slightly more toe-in.

With the rear toe-in near zero you may experience corner exit oversteer so test and add more toe-in if needed.
Thanks Harold, good point, I may have to add back a little toe at the rear if she wants to swap ends on exit. With a previous set of PS2's, I was running same rear camber (-2.0) with spec toe-in and the inside of tires were wearing excessively. I guess I will have to find a happy medium for my street tires and the track.
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      10-16-2012, 01:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriszeh View Post
I'm still hearing some conflicting theories here. I don't drive my cart much on the street but still don't want excessive wear at either the track on outer edges or street on inner. Also want to maximize overall grip without inducing a oversteer monster. My plan was to run a static set up of 2.5 neg front and 2.0 rear with a neutral or zero toe. Am I gonna get what I want or what should I tweek?
-2 is about as much as you can do and get away with not wearing the inside edges excessively on the front.
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