The pass for the lead - M3 race car

[magnetic1]

Originally Posted by mastek

That would be great here on the West Coast. Ive been to over 30 events at 10 different tracks over the years here with both NASA and BMWCCA and a weight scale for the podium finishers is the most anyone checks here. Meanwhile, there are guys running 370 rwhp e36 race cars in GTS3 and CMOD and IP??

Are you sure they are running their CM configuration or IP config? Back when I had my E36 IP car, I would have to change my ECU to drop my power.

Originally Posted by mastek

I was at 298 rwhp with bolt ons & software and 3200 lbs without driver and fuel on a street e46m3.
Now with NASA and BMWCCA most e46m3s are in GTS4 due to the 330+ rwhp and 2900 race weight.

As long as your sticker makes you feel good, but from what I see in that Video, (and by the way, your braking and turn in points and lines were much better then that nervous 993 in front of you = u r the better driver there... and I would have been very nervous passing him) looks more like your at approx 300+ rwhp and from your change of direction I would say that your weight is about what you say, maybe a bit less.
BTW, Randy tunes s54s with bolt ons for 320rwhp all day.
270-280 rwhp is what an OE e46m3 with OE headers/cats does out of the box.... and I assume you have some mods, no?

He was kind of vague when he stated EPIC tune. There is a DEtune available through EPIC. Unrestricted, yea, E46 M3s make 330+, but most guys running GTS3 have a Detune putting them in th 275-285 neighborhood. It brings down peak HP but leaves torque practically unchanged in the middle.

Basically, what youre saying is, that the top 3 finishers at NASA nationals were cheaters?

Here is one of my latest blog posts sure to fire off some cheater talk from ya... turned 202.55s at Watkins Glen in GTS3. Look at the YouTube link (crap quality), but I guess I only have cheater horsepower in the corners? Those Vettes Im chasing down make 360+ rwhp and they sure do pull away like they have 80hp on me, not 30. In another blog post, I also delve into data.

http://brakeswapracing.blogspot.com/...asa-recap.html

Occasionally I do have to entertain these cheater-type threads. Typically I don't even get involved since the outcome never works out. The guy accusing never really accepts it and I waste all my time posting.

See similar thread here at about post #381. I reply in #386... Im not going to do the same here, but Im sure data would back it all up. People were accusing Randy (of EPIC) cheating too, until they slapped a black box on his car, as well as his competition, and it clearly showed braking points being later, as well as corner speeds being 5MPH faster. Sure, he was cheating too...

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...hos-in-26.html

Lastly, I will say that Ive only met Stephen 2-3 times now and he seems like a super respectable dude. His car did not pull mine at all anywhere at Nationals. Pretty sure he was impounded at least once on the dyno too. He has improved quite a bit and you can see that in the corners, where you can have all the power you want, but the min. corner speeds dont change

[cstreit911]

Originally Posted by mastek

Sure buddy
I think it's crazy how many amateur racers straight out lie about their whp and weight to make a certain class...

Just happened to catch this. I'd say you are WAY out of line accusing him of lying about his HP. I'm pretty familiar with the guy charged with monitoring and enforcing the rules of NASA GTS. I've known him for 43 years now at last count.

In GTS we REQUIRE multiple dyno runs from a certified Dyno facility to class a competitor and run our cars on Dyno's and scales every chance we get. I can tell you for sure that e92motorsports podium at NASA Nationals ensures he gets on the officials scales and controlled dyno during that week. We also put in external devices for correlation into leading cars. I had one in my car at Nationals. No favoritism.

People used to like to say that Randy@Epic was not giving the full story about his HP too. I watched him drive away in the rain. That isn't HP. That's all driver. So in fact I'd say e92motorsports has has his HP and weight vetted in GTS more than just about any amateur race series out there. I think you owe him an apology.

Chris Streit
----------------------------------------------
NASA GTS series Director - Midwest
Partner - ProRaceSupply Motorsports Commerce
Owner of MotoDelta Motorsports and AlconKits.com

2001 GT3 Cup - "Pepin"
1996 993 RS Replica"Polly"
1970 911 NASA GTS4 - PCA GT3 class "Phoebe" FOR SALE
1997 Ducati 748 Monoposto "Daphne"
1971 Norton 750 Commando

[mastek]

Originally Posted by cstreit911

Just happened to catch this. I'd say you are WAY out of line accusing him of lying about his HP.

Originally Posted by cstreit911

I think you owe him an apology.

Really??
I directly called HIM a liar?? Is that "reading" your doing? or "scanning" through my post?

[mastek]

Originally Posted by cstreit911

In GTS we REQUIRE multiple dyno runs from a certified Dyno facility

Thats a joke right? Do you know how easy it is to manipulate numbers on a dyno. Have you ever operated a dyno?
BTW, is there a NASA official at this dyno run?? (quick answer, NO)
And which dyno is preffered (dynojet, dyno dynamics, mustang)?
My point here is that it's currently an "honor" system and I've seen my share of "dis-honorables". Until there is a quick and cheap way to check, like a portable GPS/accelerometer black box on each race car, you'll always have skeptics like me. Or is it that I'm just not fast enough?? hmmm

Originally Posted by cstreit911

So in fact I'd say e92motorsports has has his HP and weight vetted in GTS more than just about any amateur race series out there.

I'm glad its a 'fact' now
Look, I do or dont believe his car is 275 rwhp and over 3100 lbs race trim -- thats my right to do so.
However, I have seen alot of guys claiming one number (usually whp) yet know for a 'fact' the number is higher since I happen to know the dyno operator. And Ive seen this more then once. So I'm glad you have all the faith in e92 and I aplaud his skill at the track -- and am NOT calling him specifically a LIAR. Just reserve the right to speculate based on experience.

[NoM3ForMe]

Originally Posted by e92motorsports

Thank you everyone!

We were both able to finish the race, I rejoined in 2nd but since he punted me he was DQ'd which put me to 1st.

This is good to hear. Pitting is for the police

[magnetic1]

Originally Posted by mastek

BTW, is there a NASA official at this dyno run?? (quick answer, NO).

There was at Nationals.

And at all Mid-Atlantic events.

Your point was that it was basically impossible for someone to run GTS3 in an E46 M3 with an EPIC tune. Since he is running that, how are you not implying that he is cheating?

Main point here, was that it is possible to run an E46 M3 in GTS3 trim w/ an EPIC detune. This detune was run at Nationals. At Nationals, there was a dyno impound (with officials present). Further, I think the top 5 cars in GTS3 had EPIC detunes. Finally, some cars were black boxed and data logged. If youre cheating with power, it's pretty evident on the straights.

Maybe your region is full of cheats, I dont know. I also dont know you, or what you race, but dont assume everyone who is faster or has a better built car is cheating. From my experience, most people who bend the rules arent the ones up front....

[cstreit911]

Originally Posted by mastek

Thats a joke right? Do you know how easy it is to manipulate numbers on a dyno.

Yes I do. Which is why we have the dyno operated certified. Use only ONE brand of dyno with fixed parameters. You can modify weather, smoothing factors, tons of things, however these are all documented during runs. However his car was also vetted against the NASA Nationals controlled dyno. So either it's a grand conspiracy and ALL the operators are in on it for Stefan, or he dyno'd at the number he said he did.

Originally Posted by mastek

Have you ever operated a dyno?

No. Don't need to. We hire professionals to do it.

Originally Posted by mastek

BTW, is there a NASA official at this dyno run?? (quick answer, NO)

Wrong answer. Yes, there is. His name is Paul Milligan. Next?

Originally Posted by mastek

And which dyno is preffered (dynojet, dyno dynamics, mustang)?
My point here is that it's currently an "honor" system and I've seen my share of "dis-honorables". Until there is a quick and cheap way to check, like a portable GPS/accelerometer black box on each race car, you'll always have skeptics like me. Or is it that I'm just not fast enough?? hmmm

There isn't a preferred Dyno, there is a dictated dyno. Go ahead and read the rules of GTS. Here is the link: http://nasagts.com/images/stories/20...ries_Rules.pdf

You'll see that we sanction only ONE brand of dyno to keep the results consistent. We have rarely seen any variation from run to run. Certainly not 50-75 HP. We have seen that on DynoJet to Mustang which is why last year we outlawed Mustang's for certification.

Originally Posted by mastek

I'm glad its a 'fact' now
Look, I do or dont believe his car is 275 rwhp and over 3100 lbs race trim -- thats my right to do so. However, I have seen alot of guys claiming one number (usually whp) yet know for a 'fact' the number is higher since I happen to know the dyno operator. And Ive seen this more then once. So I'm glad you have all the faith in e92 and I aplaud his skill at the track -- and am NOT calling him specifically a LIAR. Just reserve the right to speculate based on experience.

It's absolutely your right. ...and yes, you did not specifically call him a liar, you just *implied that "perhaps" he was not telling the truth* by saying "Sure Buddy". I also know the dyno operators at Nationals. They dyno'd all the cars with a NASA official present.

So to summarize we have very specific and repeated official checks on our cars to ensure the HP that they show on certified dyno's is verified by officially run NASA dyno's. We also DO install accelerometers in cars (see my comments above) to correlate both the certification, official, and post race dyno results. Certainly some elaborate scheme to trick the dyno's and the accelerometers installed could be done, to win that $5 trophy... ...but race results would start showing this pretty apparently.

E92/Stefan wasn't walking away on the straights. The EPIC Detune is well-known and documented. I have 320HP in my GT3 Cup (333 stock, 320 through a restrictor) and I was pulling Smith and can (and have) pulled E92 on the straights in my GTS4 car with similar weight. I have been on track with him many times. If he had 350 HP how would that work? So from this we can conclude that either:

a) he has stated his tune accurately or

b) Both he and the others have an elaborate plan to trick the dyno's, the GTS correlation device, the official NASA Dyno, AND whenever they see me or another GTS4 car coming, they back off on the throttle so we don't get suspicious.

Now which one seems more likely?

[mastek]

Originally Posted by cstreit911

Yes I do. Which is why we have the dyno operated certified. Use only ONE brand of dyno with fixed parameters. You can modify weather, smoothing factors, tons of things, however these are all documented during runs. However his car was also vetted against the NASA Nationals controlled dyno. So either it's a grand conspiracy and ALL the operators are in on it for Stefan, or he dyno'd at the number he said he did.



No. Don't need to. We hire professionals to do it.



Wrong answer. Yes, there is. His name is Paul Milligan. Next?



There isn't a preferred Dyno, there is a dictated dyno. Go ahead and read the rules of GTS. Here is the link: http://nasagts.com/images/stories/20...ries_Rules.pdf

You'll see that we sanction only ONE brand of dyno to keep the results consistent. We have rarely seen any variation from run to run. Certainly not 50-75 HP. We have seen that on DynoJet to Mustang which is why last year we outlawed Mustang's for certification.



It's absolutely your right. ...and yes, you did not specifically call him a liar, you just *implied that "perhaps" he was not telling the truth* by saying "Sure Buddy". I also know the dyno operators at Nationals. They dyno'd all the cars with a NASA official present.

So to summarize we have very specific and repeated official checks on our cars to ensure the HP that they show on certified dyno's is verified by officially run NASA dyno's. We also DO install accelerometers in cars (see my comments above) to correlate both the certification, official, and post race dyno results. Certainly some elaborate scheme to trick the dyno's and the accelerometers installed could be done, to win that $5 trophy... ...but race results would start showing this pretty apparently.

E92/Stefan wasn't walking away on the straights. The EPIC Detune is well-known and documented. I have 320HP in my GT3 Cup (333 stock, 320 through a restrictor) and I was pulling Smith and can (and have) pulled E92 on the straights in my GTS4 car with similar weight. I have been on track with him many times. If he had 350 HP how would that work? So from this we can conclude that either:

a) he has stated his tune accurately or

b) Both he and the others have an elaborate plan to trick the dyno's, the GTS correlation device, the official NASA Dyno, AND whenever they see me or another GTS4 car coming, they back off on the throttle so we don't get suspicious.

Now which one seems more likely?

Good show Chris,
Nobody in NASA cheats, I was wrong.
Take care

[cstreit911]

Originally Posted by mastek

Good show Chris,
Nobody in NASA cheats, I was wrong.
Take care

Never said that... Someone is cheating in every level of motorsports no doubt. However this conversation was focused on e92motorsports not everyone. NASA officials are satisfied that e92 motorsports is not cheating which is the only reason I spoke up in the first place. Your implication, I felt, was inappropriate considering.

It is evident that despite solid explanations that address each of your points that this will not satisfy you.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by cstreit911

Never said that... Someone is cheating in every level of motorsports no doubt. However this conversation was focused on e92motorsports not everyone. NASA officials are satisfied that e92 motorsports is not cheating which is the only reason I spoke up in the first place. Your implication, I felt, was inappropriate considering.

It is evident that despite solid explanations that address each of your points that this will not satisfy you.

All your points had to do with the Nationals and e92motorsports
All my points have to do with what I have seen here on the west coast
We don't have dynos at the track and the podium finishers get weighed = that's it
And you DO see cars pulling away on the straight but nobody says anything.

e92motorsports might be an honest racer that reports honest numbers and has been checked by your superior system... I am not disputing that.
My point is simple... when I see amateur racers post or reveal their numbers, I am sceptical FROM EXPERIENCE.
I'm glad you came in to defend a fellow racer whom you know to be honest.... but don't apply your experience with e92 to reflect the entire amateur racing scene let alone NASA because that is slimply not the case.

[VSmotorsports]

great video Stefan!

[e92motorsports]

Thanks guys!

[sin911]

Really nice and clean driving! It's a shame the other driver punted you. You guys were at it for sure