BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
GTB Performance
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-09-2012, 01:21 PM   #23
Brosef
Colonel
Brosef's Avatar
United_States
31
Rep
2,265
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
I more or less agree with the points on why the S65 is a better engine than the 3.4l Porsche f6, but it bears mentioning that Porsche provides more or less equal performance with less displacement, two less cylinders, and a heck of a lot better fuel economy.

if you step up to even the worst GT3 engine, the 3.6, it is better than the S65 in pretty much every category already mentioned, IMO. maybe we can quibble on reliability because of the RMS/IMS issue. and price, since the engine only comes in a car whose msrp is 2x that of the M3
the GT3 motor does achieve more power with less displacement, but that's not what has been debated. the Carrera motors are what we're talking about here since they're at least in the same stratosphere in terms of price, and in fact they don't provide any more hp/liter than the S65. even the FI motors that premiered in 2009 (two years after the S65 did) provide just slightly less hp/liter than the S65, and they do so even with the benefit of direct injection.

345 hp / 3.6L = 95.8 hp/liter
385 hp / 3.8L = 101.3 hp/liter

414 hp / 4.0L = 103.5 hp/liter

clearly the GT3RS 4.0's 125 hp per liter (500 total) is in an entirely different league and quite an achievement, but again, considering the price tag on that, it's not worth debating.

as I said in my first post, the Carrera motors do win in terms of fuel efficiency. however, that trade-off is both unsurprising and well worth it when you consider the improved throttle response and flatter torque curve of the S65 (which is due in part to the individual TB's).
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 01:46 PM   #24
Wolfinwolfsclothing
Major
13
Rep
1,193
Posts

 
Drives: E92 ///M3 Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: B-roads

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
please just stop. I will again point out your misstatements, but this is the last time as I'm done debating with you.

first, you did in fact make it personal when you insulted my reading comprehension, which is unnecessary and also ridiculous considering you were wrong about what you actually said. my last post proved that. second, I know that you meant concede - did you not read what I just wrote? it's just embarrassing for you because not only is succede not a word (sorry to bring up improper vocabulary, but you were the one who turned this personal), but admitting that you called the 991's motor into question is only proving my point that you were wrong when you said you never brought it up.
Again, I meant to use the word cede, not concede. They are synonyms.
So you are wrong...I didnt mean to use concede, but had originally meant to type "you so cede...". Not "you concede". There is a difference in words not in meaning.
One more time, typing on a phone doesnt always yield proper grammar as I tend to like to keep grammar at least somewhat decent when typing on a forum that tends not to care much.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 01:48 PM   #25
Wolfinwolfsclothing
Major
13
Rep
1,193
Posts

 
Drives: E92 ///M3 Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: B-roads

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
the GT3 motor does achieve more power with less displacement, but that's not what has been debated. the Carrera motors are what we're talking about here since they're at least in the same stratosphere in terms of price, and in fact they don't provide any more hp/liter than the S65. even the FI motors that premiered in 2009 (two years after the S65 did) provide just slightly less hp/liter than the S65, and they do so even with the benefit of direct injection.

345 hp / 3.6L = 95.8 hp/liter
385 hp / 3.8L = 101.3 hp/liter

414 hp / 4.0L = 103.5 hp/liter

clearly the GT3RS 4.0's 125 hp per liter (500 total) is in an entirely different league and quite an achievement, but again, considering the price tag on that, it's not worth debating.

as I said in my first post, the Carrera motors do win in terms of fuel efficiency. however, that trade-off is both unsurprising and well worth it when you consider the improved throttle response and flatter torque curve of the S65 (which is due in part to the individual TB's).
Here is a valid point. What are the crate costs of all these motors?

I know a 4.0 is quite expensive, but last I remember a 3.6/3.8 GT3 block isnt much difference in price AS A CRATE MOTOR compared to the S65. Both run about 30K IIRC.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 01:51 PM   #26
hyperboost
Lieutenant
hyperboost's Avatar
6
Rep
597
Posts

 
Drives: M3, 535XI Msport
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Boston

iTrader: (0)

It's just an unfair comparison.
A used 997.2 GT3 not even the RS goes above a brand new M3 with comp package in term of pricing.
Different cars for different people.
__________________
F10 535XI Msport AW - DD|E92 M3 MR exported to China |E93 M3 AW sold |E46 M3 IR ESS SC'ed with loads of mods|E46 M3 TiAg Track weapon Moton CS suspention - sold|Bentley Continental Mulliner package - sold|87 944 NA winter beater - gone|E39 540iA - sold|10 Cayman|04 G35 Turbo'ed 380rwhp|03 350Z SC'ed|11 Mustang GT SC'ed 513rwhp - sold|AW SC'ed Unicorn - gone
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 01:59 PM   #27
Brosef
Colonel
Brosef's Avatar
United_States
31
Rep
2,265
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing View Post
Here is a valid point. What are the crate costs of all these motors?

I know a 4.0 is quite expensive, but last I remember a 3.6/3.8 GT3 block isnt much difference in price AS A CRATE MOTOR compared to the S65. Both run about 30K IIRC.
I agree that is a valid point to debate. however, at first you were ignoring price for these cars overall and saying that it is fair to compare a GT3 with an M3. so, suddenly introducing the price argument into the equation is a flip-flop on your part, and you're clearly just arguing anything that you can get to agree with your case, rather than what's right and fair.

I wouldn't know where to look up those costs so that we're looking at real numbers, but if it's true that the motors cost about the same, then suddenly the 911 chassis and body become even more expensive relative to the M3. I have always loved 911's, but they are WAY over-priced for what Porsche charges. especially now. however, I digress. the S65 should cost as much as the carrera engines as it's a far superior motor IMO. if you look at it that way, consider what an amazing chassis BMW is offering for $30k.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 02:00 PM   #28
alms211
Banned
9
Rep
746
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: MD

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
I so lust after a Carrera S....I know I would miss my M3 though.
Been there and done that. While a very nice car, the 997.1/997.2 Carrera S isn't any better than your M3. The 997 GT cars are the ones to lust after. There is not a single thing I liked better about my former 997S over my former E92M3.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 02:09 PM   #29
ChinoOrtega
Captain
ChinoOrtega's Avatar
Guatemala
15
Rep
604
Posts

 
Drives: 991 C2S
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Guatemala

iTrader: (0)

wow, this has turned into a Porsche VS M3 Forum, and they are not even direct competition
__________________
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 02:12 PM   #30
Wolfinwolfsclothing
Major
13
Rep
1,193
Posts

 
Drives: E92 ///M3 Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: B-roads

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
I agree that is a valid point to debate. however, at first you were ignoring price for these cars overall and saying that it is fair to compare a GT3 with an M3. so, suddenly introducing the price argument into the equation is a flip-flop on your part, and you're clearly just arguing anything that you can get to agree with your case, rather than what's right and fair.

I wouldn't know where to look up those costs so that we're looking at real numbers, but if it's true that the motors cost about the same, then suddenly the 911 chassis and body become even more expensive relative to the M3. I have always loved 911's, but they are WAY over-priced for what Porsche charges. especially now. however, I digress. the S65 should cost as much as the carrera engines as it's a far superior motor IMO. if you look at it that way, consider what an amazing chassis BMW is offering for $30k.
I never said it was fair to compare new price vs. new price...because it flat out is not. Hard to argue prices though because its dependant on so many variables especially when BWMs market is primarily >100K and Porsche's is 100K+. i.e. how much is due to better quality, rarity, or simply just the mark up of a higher end brand.
Porsche's are expensive and overpriced a bit, but I think Ferraris and Lambos and the like all are way, way overpriced (and most is simply due to lower production numbers)...frankly everything these days is overpriced, our M3s included...they are a bargain next to most other cars that are much higher priced. You could easily make the same arguement for the M3 GTS and how much youre paying for that same chasis vs. motor etc...now compare that car to a GT3 and things are clearer in terms of overall price.

Last edited by Wolfinwolfsclothing; 10-09-2012 at 03:12 PM.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 02:24 PM   #31
konaforever
Second Lieutenant
United_States
2
Rep
234
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 Red GTR
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinoOrtega View Post
wow, this has turned into a Porsche VS M3 Forum, and they are not even direct competition
M3 vs GTR
and
M3 vs 335 is old news I guess.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 02:38 PM   #32
Brosef
Colonel
Brosef's Avatar
United_States
31
Rep
2,265
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alms211 View Post
Been there and done that. While a very nice car, the 997.1/997.2 Carrera S isn't any better than your M3. The 997 GT cars are the ones to lust after. There is not a single thing I liked better about my former 997S over my former E92M3.
agreed. just about everything my 997 did my M3 does better.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 05:09 PM   #33
hakaida442
First Lieutenant
hakaida442's Avatar
3
Rep
371
Posts

 
Drives: 11 Porsche 911 Carrera GTS
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clar View Post
Totally agree! The music produced by the S65 in my M3 beats the sound in the 991 C2S hands down. Regular 911s don't sound all that good. U will need at least a 997 GT3 or a Turbo for that. When test driving the 991, i kept getting irritated by the induction note of their latest flat 6 and din think i was willing to trade in my S65 for that no matter how quick it goes around a track.
Turbo? The turbos sound worse than the engines in the carreras. The GT3 engines are by far the best then the 3.8 carrera's are next. I still like the sound of the e46 inline 6 over the S65 v8.
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 06:40 PM   #34
clar
Major
clar's Avatar
Singapore
26
Rep
1,034
Posts

 
Drives: M5
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Singapore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hakaida442 View Post
Turbo? The turbos sound worse than the engines in the carreras. The GT3 engines are by far the best then the 3.8 carrera's are next. I still like the sound of the e46 inline 6 over the S65 v8.
The turbos don't have the annoying induction note of the regular 911s. I like the induction note of the S54, but hated its exhaust note.
__________________

- Frozen Grey F10 M5 DCT
- Rosso Corsa 458 Speciale
- Frozen Grey E92 M3 Sold
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 06:51 PM   #35
Darth One
Former yr 1of1 owner
Darth One's Avatar
United_States
11
Rep
1,109
Posts

 
Drives: SGM E90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: FL

iTrader: (0)

i'm sure that someone can chime in with how much an S65 costs, but i've been told a replacement Carrera engine is about $30k, while a GT3 engine is $45-50k. take this with a pinch of salt because i only read it from a Porsche forum. it's probably way more than the S65, regardless. and Porsche will never win a value for money competition with BMW. with Ferrari, it could
Appreciate 0
      10-09-2012, 08:29 PM   #36
PhillyNate
ENTHUSIAST
PhillyNate's Avatar
United_States
25
Rep
2,038
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 Toyota GT-86
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
i'm sure that someone can chime in with how much an S65 costs, but i've been told a replacement Carrera engine is about $30k, while a GT3 engine is $45-50k. take this with a pinch of salt because i only read it from a Porsche forum. it's probably way more than the S65, regardless. and Porsche will never win a value for money competition with BMW. with Ferrari, it could
It's my understanding from this forum that an S65 engine is approximately $25k.
__________________

"what I'm driving here...is an ending." Jeremy Clarkson
2014 Whiteout Toyota GT-86 6mt(Presently enjoying WAY more than anticipated)
2011 Alpine White BMW M3 6mt ZCP Coupe(forced retirement 06/06/14)
2008 Alpine White BMW 328i 6mt Coupe(retired 06/21/11
)
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2012, 09:02 AM   #37
positiveions
Lieutenant General
positiveions's Avatar
Lebanon
114
Rep
10,529
Posts

 
Drives: 09 MKV JETTA 2.5 & E90 M3 :)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: La Verne, CA

iTrader: (1)

Send a message via MSN to positiveions Send a message via Yahoo to positiveions
I have never driven a 3.8L 911 yet! However, I am tempted to drive one, just to feel the difference.
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2012, 10:40 AM   #38
Raja Ventureshield
Banned
Raja Ventureshield's Avatar
United_States
83
Rep
5,694
Posts

 
Drives: BMW M3 coupe
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Northern VA

iTrader: (6)

i have owned both 997 and now m3. I can say they are really different cars. Although I miss the 997, the M3 keeps me content. The M3 is more sudued and more appropiate for DD. M3 may have more power and bigger engine, but the 997 is quick and feels light. i am dying to get a 991 now.... The 997 is more rewarding as you already know it. What comes down is how you feel connected when you drive the car, so really you just have to take it for a test drive and determine it for yourself.
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2012, 12:52 PM   #39
adc
Brigadier General
53
Rep
4,150
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (6)

I drove the 997.1 and 997.2 back to back with the M3. I liked the .2 engine better than the .1, had significantly more power but I felt that the S65 had a slightly better throttle response. Not by a huge margin, but the advantage was there. I also thought it likes to rev more than either of the Porsche engines and was smoother in the process.

When talking about fuel economy, I hope you guys are taking into consideration the huge weight difference as well as the aero considerations. Is the Porsche engine really more fuel efficient or just powering a much smaller/lighter car? We'll probably never know?


Considering the price difference, I think the S65 is an incredible achievement. I think if BMW had dropped it into a 3200lbs chassis they would have killed the non-GT3 performance wise. I'm a little bummed that they didn't and that they show no intention to compete in this category.

Anyway, I loved how connected to the driver the 997.2 was and how direct the steering and transmission felt. If I could justify the $30,000 price difference, I'd probably buy one - then again for that much money I could simply buy a used Cayman and turn it into a much better track car than either the 911S or E90 M3, all the while keeping my bimmer.
__________________

2009 E90 M3 ED
2014 X1 28i ED
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2012, 02:29 PM   #40
Wolfinwolfsclothing
Major
13
Rep
1,193
Posts

 
Drives: E92 ///M3 Coupe
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: B-roads

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I drove the 997.1 and 997.2 back to back with the M3. I liked the .2 engine better than the .1, had significantly more power but I felt that the S65 had a slightly better throttle response. Not by a huge margin, but the advantage was there. I also thought it likes to rev more than either of the Porsche engines and was smoother in the process.

When talking about fuel economy, I hope you guys are taking into consideration the huge weight difference as well as the aero considerations. Is the Porsche engine really more fuel efficient or just powering a much smaller/lighter car? We'll probably never know?


Considering the price difference, I think the S65 is an incredible achievement. I think if BMW had dropped it into a 3200lbs chassis they would have killed the non-GT3 performance wise. I'm a little bummed that they didn't and that they show no intention to compete in this category.

Anyway, I loved how connected to the driver the 997.2 was and how direct the steering and transmission felt. If I could justify the $30,000 price difference, I'd probably buy one - then again for that much money I could simply buy a used Cayman and turn it into a much better track car than either the 911S or E90 M3, all the while keeping my bimmer.
Fair assessment, but dont think dropping to 3200 lbs it would do anything other than lessen the performance gap considering the size of the gap as is. Basing that on the fact that the M3 GTS barely edges out a 997.2S in performance despite having 444 hp and down to 3300 lbs.
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2012, 02:58 PM   #41
Bubajay
Private First Class
3
Rep
163
Posts

 
Drives: Fiji Blue Honda Civic Si
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SoCal in spirit/OK for days

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
this is pathetic. why don't we compare the S65 to Ferrari's best engine of all time while we're at it? there comes a point at which two cars are in such vastly different price categories that they can't be compared with any expectation of fairness. the GT3 is essentially twice as expensive as the M3. do you really still think that this is apples to apples? how convenient that you write off the P-car that is less expensive (though still in a materially higher price category) as opposed to acknowledging that BMW has a much better engine, and at a lower price point to boot. and the 991 motor was excluded because that came out 6 years after the S65. please go enjoy your Porsche and don't bother posting such nonsense.

but while you brought it up, the torque curve on the GT3 motors is not as flat as the S65, contrary to what you said.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2012, 08:48 PM   #42
KTM505SX
Lieutenant
United_States
6
Rep
569
Posts

 
Drives: 11 E92M3 ZCP 13 Ford Raptor SC
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Stevenson Ranch,CA

iTrader: (0)

The S65 only compares to the GT3 3.6L F6 IMO,as far as power delivery and responsiveness. Anything less from porsche does not compare

The S65 is smoother,more responsive and sounds better than the non GT porsche 3.4-3.8L engines.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2012, 09:25 PM   #43
bholloway
Enlisted Member
0
Rep
30
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Hell

iTrader: (0)

Anyone who would rather have an M3 than a 911 is an uneducated fool and thats a fact. The 911 is one of the best if not the best sportscar ever build. The M3 is a heavy, modified 3 series designed for middle aged business men to haul their kids and fat wife around in. If you think the M3 is better than you're a poor ass peasant and probably a shitty driver. Man up and get a Porsche... You're welcome M3 forums.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2012, 09:53 PM   #44
MStar
Banned
No_Country
2
Rep
290
Posts

 
Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Here and there

iTrader: (0)

Debating on which cars/engine are better aside..the obvious fact is that the engine placements on the Porsche and M3 being at different ends of the car means that any real comparison of how these cars drive and feel is going to be vastly unfair.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:24 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST