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      10-03-2012, 04:37 PM   #45
Omar@VelosDesignwerks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3an View Post
I'm sorry but saying ESS correct me if I'm wrong really makes me specualate @ your tuning ability. I for one would not feel comfortable with a sniffer that's "off" a little as this is the line between running good and a rod thrown out the side of the block. Also I wouldn't feel comfortable running boost on this car w/ AFRS anywheres' near 12; I 'd rather run the car a little fatter to be safe. Esp in South Florida
The ECU will adjust accordingly based on conditions (ignition).

Last edited by Omar@VelosDesignwerks; 10-03-2012 at 05:38 PM.
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      10-03-2012, 04:44 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
Are you serious right now? I said they could correct me if I am wrong out of respect. Even though we offer their product I would not want to speak on their system without making sure my facts are 100%. Trust me I know enough about FI and the way the S65 works to comment.

Just a little knowledge for you the car/ecu will adjust its ECU based on the conditions. These cars are all WIDEBAND, the ECU's goal is to maximize power within factory safety margins as long as the conditions allow it. This is a different form of tuning and kind of shocked that any of the "tuners" in this thread would question the AFR.

Check out a dyno database or even back to back runs on the same car and you will notice the afr's read a little different. Kind of the same reason I get so confused when I see everyone pushing their NA software and making it seem like these cars react the same way every time.

I can go into this some more if you still do not understand.

Please don't tell me I don't understand. I understand you tune for a value and the ECU targets a cetain value, but that is only w/in a certain range.

Example; put the car on kill and it will eventually die.

Omar, Please don't try and insult me, that last comment was fubar. I dunno if you remember me, but I paid you to do some work to my car, and I had to redo it the next day. So thanks.


I will PM you now; NOT to put you on blast on a public forum'


remember, you guys started this bullshit thread
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      10-03-2012, 04:45 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3an View Post
Please don't tell me I don't understand. I understand you tune for a value and the ECU targets a cetain value, but that is only w/in a certain range.

Example; put the car on kill and it will eventually die.

Omar, Please don't try and insult me, that last comment was fubar. I dunno if you remember me, but I paid you to do some work to my car, and I had to redo it the next day. So thanks.


I will PM you now; NOT to put you on blast on a public forum'


remember, you guys started this bullshit thread
Happy you agree, the car is not set on kill. Other tuners do and that is why it dies. Not meant an insult, just trying to lend some knowledge. I will try again below.

If you set the ECU to a certain value it will allow said value assuming conditions are PERFECT (allow). Assuming conditions are not acceptable these values will adjust accordingly.

When you add something like meth because the car is set on "kill" mode that is when you have a problem.

p.s. Got your PM regarding your exhaust install, I remember now. I will pay for the install you did elsewhere. Let me know how you want payment.

Last edited by Omar@VelosDesignwerks; 10-03-2012 at 04:52 PM.
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      10-03-2012, 04:49 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
Happy you agree, the car is not set on kill. Other tuners do and that is why it dies. Not meant an insult, just trying to lend some knowledge.
read my PM and lend you knowledge to others that need it. No offense but you should be talking to you employees or however started this thread as its comical bullshit. Why no mention of GPower or VF as others have stated. You clearly have issues w/ AA and that's ok, but don't try and corrupt others with bullshit posts that lack much technical knowledge and then when questioned refer back to ESS
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      10-03-2012, 04:55 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
Mike,

With all due respect please do not take this the wrong way, I get it trust me I really do. You bought tuning equipment and you offer services. Unfortunately you have no reason to be here and have been inviting someone to post back and forth with you. You have my email if you need to discuss anything but trust me the A/f on a wideband car will adjust both ways. If you do not know that head back to the drawing board and see what you dig up. I told you on the phone I have nothing but respect for you, lets keep it that way.

Best,
Hi Omar,

Nothing against you either. I was simply curious since I have had thoughts of supercharging my own car. I appreciate everything you've said other than "heading back to the drawing board". The fueling is TARGET based period, that's why we have wideband o2 sensors. You can see some fluctuations in AFR but this is likely due to Fuel Factor table changes, not the lambda aim targets. You obviously don't want me in this thread, so lets agree to disagree. I have done an insane amount of development on this ECU and know exactly how it works.

You are basically saying that there are fuel compensation maps for temperature in the MSS60 DME. What side of the ECU are these on? This is my last post here, maybe Sal can chime in since according to you I apparently have no idea what I'm talking about.
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 10-03-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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      10-03-2012, 04:56 PM   #50
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      10-03-2012, 05:17 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Hi Omar,

Nothing against you either. I was simply curious since I have had thoughts of supercharging my own car. I appreciate everything you've said other than "heading back to the drawing board". The fueling is TARGET based period, that's why we have wideband o2 sensors. You can see some fluctuations in AFR but this is likely due to Fuel Factor table changes, not the lambda aim targets. You obviously don't want me in this thread, so lets agree to disagree. I have done an insane amount of development on this ECU and know exactly how it works.

You are basically saying that there are fuel compensation maps for temperature in the MSS60 DME. What side of the ECU are these on? This is my last post here, maybe Sal can chime in since I apparently have no idea what I'm talking about.
Benvo!

Love it when you get all technical!

Serious note - you are completely correct here with respect to the fuel factor table and lambda aims.

The lambda will aim to what ever you set it - but it can only aim so much.

If the fuel factor table (10x10 fuel side) map is not altered correctly and the fuel scaling factor is not calculated correctly with respect to the size of the injectors then the aim will always be aiming but never achieving because the deviation is simply too large.

Our own supercharged car has been tested in 0 degC, 5-8 degC and 25+ degC. Our aim is 12.2 AFR. We achieve very close to it what ever the ambient temperature is (there is a limit where physics will take over but they are big). The reason is because the fuel scaling and fuel factor table has been correctly set which is derived from continual testing and retesting.

Now, for the fueling to go leaner with colder denser air implies that the DME is infact not at all intelligent and is like that of a Bosch Motronic 1.1!
A denser cooler charge will actual require more fuel and if that did happen then the AFR will be maintained.... like we would hope.
An intelligent DME will not allow this unless the base calibration for fuel is too far out for the aim to reach as mentioned above.

It's all quite logical.

I am by the way not going to comment on if the AFR is lean or rich on any graphs. Who knows... could be down to placement of the probe. Could be a break in the pipe drawing in air? Who knows?

(opens packet of silk cut silver and begins to smoke)


Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 10-03-2012 at 05:33 PM.
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      10-03-2012, 05:23 PM   #52
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      10-03-2012, 05:24 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Benvo!

Love it when you get all technical!

Serious note - you are completely correct here with respect to the fuel factor table and lambda aims.

The lambda will aim to what ever you set it - but it can only aim so much.

If the fuel factor table (10x10 fuel side) map is not altered correctly and the fuel scaling factor is not calculated correctly with respect to the size of the injectors then the aim will always be aiming but never achieving because the deviation is simply too large.

Our own supercharged car has been tested in 0 degC, 5-8 degC and 25+ degC. Our aim is 12.2 AFR. We achieve very close to it what ever the ambient temperature is (there is a limit where physics will take over but they are big). The reason is because the fuel scaling and fuel factor table has been correctly set which is derived from continual testing and retesting.

Now, for the fueling to go leaner with colder denser air implies that the DME is infact not at all intelligent and is like that of a Bosch Motronic 1.1!
A denser cooler charge will actual require more fuel and if that did happen then the AFR will be maintained.... like we would hope.
An intelligent DME will not allow this unless the base calibration for fuel is too far out for the aim to reach as mentioned above.

It's all quite logical.

I am by the way not going to comment on if the AFR is lean or rich on any graphs. Who knows... could be down to placement of the probe. Could be a break in the pipe drawing in air? Who knows?

(opens packet of silk cut silver and begins to smoke)


exactly, w.out all the tech BS; we tune for a target, and the ECU will adapt but only w/in a certain window of scale. Now if the car is tuned rather lean, I can't see that being beneficial once the car is heatsoaked or in stop and go 100 degree days, the car is going to want to pull timing and negate any benefits. Outside of that window and we have now put a window in the block.

And I guess another thing to note is if subject car has cats or not as this will def change values read at the tailpipe. BUt this is all the more reason that if I was gonna boost this car, and really extract all the power I can, I would def put a wideband 02 up near the collectors to get an "accurate" value

Last edited by m3an; 10-03-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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      10-03-2012, 05:44 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Benvo!

Love it when you get all technical!

Serious note - you are completely correct here with respect to the fuel factor table and lambda aims.

The lambda will aim to what ever you set it - but it can only aim so much.

If the fuel factor table (10x10 fuel side) map is not altered correctly and the fuel scaling factor is not calculated correctly with respect to the size of the injectors then the aim will always be aiming but never achieving because the deviation is simply too large.

Our own supercharged car has been tested in 0 degC, 5-8 degC and 25+ degC. Our aim is 12.2 AFR. We achieve very close to it what ever the ambient temperature is (there is a limit where physics will take over but they are big). The reason is because the fuel scaling and fuel factor table has been correctly set which is derived from continual testing and retesting.

Now, for the fueling to go leaner with colder denser air implies that the DME is infact not at all intelligent and is like that of a Bosch Motronic 1.1!
A denser cooler charge will actual require more fuel and if that did happen then the AFR will be maintained.... like we would hope.
An intelligent DME will not allow this unless the base calibration for fuel is too far out for the aim to reach as mentioned above.

It's all quite logical.

I am by the way not going to comment on if the AFR is lean or rich on any graphs. Who knows... could be down to placement of the probe. Could be a break in the pipe drawing in air? Who knows?

(opens packet of silk cut silver and begins to smoke)

100% Spot on sir. The days of Motronic are long gone. I actually have the Motronic 1.3 first adaptive Bosch ECU sitting behind me. It's an old school brick - particularly terrible when boost is introduced. It was fifty times harder to tune that DME for boost over something sophisticated like the MSS60 - this is a walk in the park!

And yes, if the fuel factor table ramp up is not set correctly on an S/C car, this can cause issues with inconsistent fueling. You're referring to the map at address 0x797xx I'm glad were on the same page.
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 10-03-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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      10-03-2012, 05:45 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAFP View Post
lol these threads crack me
fail it was supposed to be informative... It happens though man. The forums need it every now and then. The more kits the better. I think all the vendors will agree the one thing that is important is valuing every customer and treating them with the utmost respect whether they spend $100 or $20k.

Best,
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      10-03-2012, 05:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
100% Spot on sir. The days of Motronic are long gone. I actually have the Motronic 1.3 first adaptive Bosch ECU sitting behind me. It's an old school brick - particularly terrible when boost is introduced. It was fifty times harder to tune that DME for boost over something sophisticated like the MSS60 - this is a walk in the park!

And yes, if the fuel factor table ramp up is not set correctly on an S/C car, this can cause issues with inconsistent fueling. You're referring to the map at address 797xx I'm glad were on the same page.

SC is much easier on an old skool simple setup as one can set the timing and use a FMU for fuel control as the boost is linear and the FMU is boost dependent. Set it up and drive it. Turbo tuning is always more of an art as boost is totally diff
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      10-03-2012, 06:45 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3an View Post
SC is much easier on an old skool simple setup as one can set the timing and use a FMU for fuel control as the boost is linear and the FMU is boost dependent. Set it up and drive it. Turbo tuning is always more of an art as boost is totally diff
True, X boost at Y RPM is always nice to work with. This versus tuning for the 'onset' of boost which can be different depending on exhaust gas flow at the turbine.

The 7 series runs quite good given I'm using the stock DME with a 4" MAF and they didn't even use MAF's back then! But only so much you can do with such outdated technology. And it is not using an FMU, everything is 100% run through Motronic 1.3, 8 bit. Useless. Makes much more sense to use a MAP based system, so that's my next project

And yes, o2 sensor placement is very important - not only for an accurate reading but for fuel trim correction as well.

(I let off on the shift because I'm afraid my automatic will explode)
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      10-03-2012, 07:02 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
True, X boost at Y RPM is always nice to work with. This versus tuning for the 'onset' of boost which can be different depending on exhaust gas flow at the turbine.

The 7 series runs quite good given I'm using the stock DME with a 4" MAF and they didn't even use MAF's back then! But only so much you can do with such outdated technology. And it is not using an FMU, everything is 100% run through Motronic 1.3, 8 bit. Useless. Makes much more sense to use a MAP based system, so that's my next project

And yes, o2 sensor placement is very important - not only for an accurate reading but for fuel trim correction as well.

(I let off on the shift because I'm afraid my automatic will explode)


agree 100%; ditch the maf for a good map/speed density setup
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      10-04-2012, 03:07 AM   #59
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what size are the injectors on the ess 625 and 650?
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      10-04-2012, 08:31 AM   #60
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      10-04-2012, 08:48 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I thought I'd chime in and mention that 'Ass Clown Tuning', and 'Douche Canoe Engineering' is teaming up to develop our own supercharger that will be better than anything else on the planet. In fact, we have data that suggests that anybody running a different system will become extremely gay.

Our test model puts out around 2000 HP. Cooling is still a bit of an issue, but we are talking to a local nuclear facility to find solutions regarding heat-soak. Right now a small lake is suggested.

Reliability is also a bit of an issue, so we suggest you buy 2 units... by the time your motor blows we are most likely out of business anyway, but all will be covered under our 'fuck you and your mother warranty', we also offer top-notch 'shit on your father's face service'.

Thank you.

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      10-04-2012, 09:39 AM   #62
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We've progressed to the point of nothingness, this thread has lost all meaning and is going nowhere... These forums are open to discussion but sometimes our favorite avenue to discuss our passion for cars can sometimes be too informal and take wrong turns.

If anyone would like to have a private discussion about supercharger systems please contact me and i will be happy to oblige.

I have taken notes that a few members found my direct attitude to be a down right brash and i take your opinions to heart and it has been noted.

Hope everyone enjoys their cars safely and in good health.

Thanks for reading.
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