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      09-24-2012, 04:16 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Just wanted to post an update after speaking with a few of my friends in the tuning community that have had experience with these stacks.

It turns out that it sounds like the company that makes them actually know what they are doing. When fitting them straight away without any tuning, the car lost significant power on the dyno. But after consistently redynoing the car without making any further changes to the software, they actually made power after the car was able to adapt.

Furthermore, there was a customer that wanted to order them. He explained to the company that his car had aftermarket camshafts. They told him that the product in their stock form would not work properly unless the camshafts were stock, as the length of the stack is calculated by them and timed to the valve opening events. They wound up making a specific stack for this customer with a change in length to account for the different camshafts that were fitted. This shows a clear understanding by them of the relationship between the length of the stacks and the cam profiles.

Now if only they had a way to incorporate airfilters on top of the stacks, I would probably consider them for my car.

Hope this helps clarify real world experiences with the use of these stacks.
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Not a lot of headroom is required to achieve full flow characteristics of the stacks due to the nice smooth bell mouth opening that funnels and directs the airflow.



FMU are not dummies....... They have been in the VW/Audi scene for many years now and although I am not a fan of how they like to slam every car they turn out, their past projects speak for themselves. It takes considerable R&D to engineer and produce a piece like this.

Your talk of camshafts sounds like a person who had replied to this post in a few replies above



+1 FMU have been around for a bit and do build some nice things; surprised you've never heard of them esp. considering your part in the BMW community. They are def not amateurs
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      09-24-2012, 04:17 PM   #24
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as far as filters are concerned you can def run some mesh over the stacks or get some nice little K&N filters designed for some Mikuni carbs and adapt em (will need some customization but it's been done before)
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      09-24-2012, 04:24 PM   #25
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I have heard of them, just never dealt directly with them.

Too many assumptions drawn.
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      09-24-2012, 07:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Not a lot of headroom is required to achieve full flow characteristics of the stacks due to the nice smooth bell mouth opening that funnels and directs the airflow.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me like there is very limited airflow to work with under the hood. Air isn't actively being pushed into the stacks and the engine has to work harder to get the air it needs.

Kinda just talking out of my ass but the above seems logical to me.
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      09-25-2012, 04:01 PM   #27
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as far as filters are concerned you can def run some mesh over the stacks or get some nice little K&N filters designed for some Mikuni carbs and adapt em (will need some customization but it's been done before)
Or you could...wait for it... wait for it... run a plenum with a big filter on the end!
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      09-25-2012, 07:56 PM   #28
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I actually had a conversation with them via email a few weeks ago about the stack system. The stack system is currently being re-designed and should incorporate some type of air filter. He said the car would need to be brought to them for a full tune with baseline dyno's etc. I think they have it on the website to show that they have the capability to provide such a system but, its not a product ready to go in a box with software at this point in time (may never be?). Its done on a case by case basis which is why you don't see a price on it.
they said they'd contact me when the new system was closer to being complete.
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      09-26-2012, 05:31 PM   #29
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I want... this shouldnt heatsoak as bad as some mention because of the meth. Meth brings IAT's down significantly
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      09-26-2012, 06:56 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3an View Post
as far as filters are concerned you can def run some mesh over the stacks or get some nice little K&N filters designed for some Mikuni carbs and adapt em (will need some customization but it's been done before)
Not worth it!!! I am not willing to risk letting my engine getting dusted for a nice looking stack setup.
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      10-01-2012, 10:24 PM   #31
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Some of you may be interested in checking out this post and some of the videos there showing them in action... not for me without airfilters, but pretty cool:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ty-stacks.html
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      10-01-2012, 10:42 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Some of you may be interested in checking out this post and some of the videos there showing them in action... not for me without airfilters, but pretty cool:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ty-stacks.html
yeah, no air filters on a $30k engine, no thanks
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      10-01-2012, 11:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Well Mike, I am not trying to fight or criticize or argue with you so no need to be defensive. I have no doubt in my mind that you have the ability to tune the VANOS system within the limits of the cam phasers and at the maximum rates of adjustment the phasers will allow.

With the above being said, a person tuning needs to have an understanding of what makes power in an engine. The stock intake system in both the S85 and S65 and every other BMW S engine ever made (with the exception of the S50B30US and S50B32US) used velocity stacks inside the air boxes. The cam duration on the intake side is what allows a velocity stack of a specific length to make power at a specific RPM. Changing the length of a velocity stack will change the RPM the torque peak of the engine occurs. Generally, shorter velocity stacks make peak torque at higher RPM and longer velocity stacks will make peak torque at lower RPM according to the effect of (depending which wave you are using in the resonance pulse that occurs). The torque curve of the later S engines (VANOS Engine are the ones I am referring to) was flattened by continuously changing the cam duration to be able to make this resonance effect occur right through the RPM range rather than at a specifically narrow RPM where they would occur without variable cam timing. So velocity stacks and cams have a very close relationship whether you realize it or not. Engine builders of the past would select their port shape, diameter, cam duration and lift and intake runner or velocity stack length in concert with one and other according to where they wanted the engine to make peak power and torque

Although I am not interested in these velocity stacks for my car and the fact that I don't like the design due to the lack of air filters, the statement that they are not the same as cams for tuning is totally false. If you have the ability to adjust the cam angles in the VANOS tables of the ECM there is no reason you could not write a tune for these stacks to make good power with them and possibly even more than the stock plenum/stack configuration. Having the knowledge of engine tuning fundamentals and applying them to make power is a different thing.

P.S. 58 degress of cam timing adjustment on the intake and 48 degrees on the exhaust at a rate of 360 degrees per second, is lots of adjustment to take advantage of almost any stack configuration over the usable rpm range of roughly 7400 RPM.
Dont you always tune for the first mode wave? The energy in subsequent waves is legligible compared to the resonant frequency.
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      10-02-2012, 01:16 AM   #34
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Quote:
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Dont you always tune for the first mode wave? The energy in subsequent waves is legligible compared to the resonant frequency.
Due to the high redline and amount of camshaft adjustment of the S65, it is possible to tune for the second, third wave, or fourth wave.

I am not sure if they are actually using the third or fourth wave, but the torque curve of the engine is so flat that they are not using only the first wave, it would be impossible to do so over the 6000RPM that the torque curve stays nearly flat!

To answer your question, the energy in the subsequent waves are reduced, but they are still very usable. One thing that is of note, is that as the RPM's climb, the exhaust scavenging effect increases enough to offset the reduction in intensity of the pressure wave in the intake. This scavenging effect is also helping to pull new mixture into the cylinder under valve overlap........ I am sure this is one of the main reasons for the nice equal length primaries and nicely designed merge collectors on the factory headers. Loss in this scavenging effect may be the reason why some x-pipe setups seem to put a hole in the bottom of the torque curve on the S65.
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Last edited by BMRLVR; 10-02-2012 at 01:52 AM.
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