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      09-29-2012, 07:42 AM   #111
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The Boss 302 has proven to be a very good car from a performance standpoint. And hey, if you can stand to sit in that pile of cheap plastic with those god awful gauges and ugly ass dashboard, then go for it. Oh yeah, just close your eyes when you walk around the ass end of that thing as well. Good god the reaar of that car is hideous.
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      09-29-2012, 07:51 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Sounds like a few people are comparing drivers not cars. If you are passing a car in a track it doesn't mean the car isn't capable
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+1
Every magazine that had professional drivers drive both cars got better times in the boss.
Same driver, different car, thats the best way to compare them.
In a way, it does mean the car is less capable because if some novice in a mostly stock M3 running street rubber just smoked you in a Boss on R-compound then it means that your car is less forgiving and harder to drive at 10/10. The driver is only a part of that equation. The bigger part is how much confidence the car gives the driver. How well the car communicates with the driver and lets him know hey, you are past the limits of traction but even then, the M3 is so balanced and communicates so well that you can still drive out of it without losing time. I have not driven the Boss so everything I've said might be a moot point. Someone want to let me drive their Boss at VIR? In any case, the M3 is the bomb and those who doesn't push their car to the limit and then past it will never understand or appreciate what the M3 is about. They have no idea what they're missing, it's sad really....

As far as the same driver, different car argument. Every driver has different preference on how the car is setup/ behaves. Different drivers are faster in different cars. Know what I mean? In the end, all that matters is what you can do with the car which is why my point of view is so relevant.
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      09-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Beemw335 View Post
+1
Every magazine that had professional drivers drive both cars got better times in the boss.
Same driver, different car, thats the best way to compare them.
I agree to some extent, but there is also the real-life factor. What I mean by this is that 1) some cars are easier to drive than others; 2) in some cars you need to memorize exactly what you need to do in each moment to make the car fast - you cannot just feel traction but need to figure out the optimal level by many trial-and-error attempts and then just repeat it perfectly for a fast lap.

The advantage of M3 is that it is pretty good on both ease of driving and communication dimensions, so you can get close to full potential of the car in few sessions. In Corvette, for example, same driver would need much more practice time to be fast, but would be faster in the end. For amateurs who are limited to <20 days a year, the car that's the easiest to drive and communicates the best would consistently be faster in real life.

Another thing is that we never drive one lap. With closely-matched cars, it takes 5 or more laps to pass someone. And in those conditions consistency matters as much as one-lap speed. Whichever car provokes fewer mistakes and whichever stays more consistent over time in terms of engine power, brake feel, tire temperature etc. wins. Case in point - my fastest laps with stock brakes and Alcons are the same, but with stock brakes average lap times were noticeably worse, and I could not push for more than 15 mins without cooldown. So obviously the car with Alcon BBK would be faster in real life, but the best lap time would not tell that story.

Just to provide background - I am not M3 fanboy or have any attachment to it. I like the car, but I only got it because of the rear seats, and now I am bored with it a bit and considering either building a track car or putting a deposing on the next GT3.
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      09-29-2012, 11:11 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
I agree to some extent, but there is also the real-life factor. What I mean by this is that 1) some cars are easier to drive than others; 2) in some cars you need to memorize exactly what you need to do in each moment to make the car fast - you cannot just feel traction but need to figure out the optimal level by many trial-and-error attempts and then just repeat it perfectly for a fast lap.

The advantage of M3 is that it is pretty good on both ease of driving and communication dimensions, so you can get close to full potential of the car in few sessions. In Corvette, for example, same driver would need much more practice time to be fast, but would be faster in the end. For amateurs who are limited to <20 days a year, the car that's the easiest to drive and communicates the best would consistently be faster in real life.

Another thing is that we never drive one lap. With closely-matched cars, it takes 5 or more laps to pass someone. And in those conditions consistency matters as much as one-lap speed. Whichever car provokes fewer mistakes and whichever stays more consistent over time in terms of engine power, brake feel, tire temperature etc. wins. Case in point - my fastest laps with stock brakes and Alcons are the same, but with stock brakes average lap times were noticeably worse, and I could not push for more than 15 mins without cooldown. So obviously the car with Alcon BBK would be faster in real life, but the best lap time would not tell that story.

Just to provide background - I am not M3 fanboy or have any attachment to it. I like the car, but I only got it because of the rear seats, and now I am bored with it a bit and considering either building a track car or putting a deposing on the next GT3.
All very good points.

Confidence is a huge factor for an amateur like me. After dropping 230 lbs worth of instructor during day 2, my laps were not necessarily any faster due to the weight loss. Being alone in the car on track with traffic and a huge disparity of speeds, definitely made me be a little more cautious. A communicative and forgiving car like the M3 is golden for someone like me.

But by all accounts, the Boss seems to be a good drivers car. I too would like to sample one on track, or on my secret test facility in Mexico.
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      09-29-2012, 11:54 AM   #115
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Would have to agree with all these comments as they reflect my personal experience. There are countless "faster" cars on track than my M but I am consistent and relentless and the car allows me that freedom. The M is a very easy car to drive fast and think that's where the true difference lies. Have driven a few cars on track now (miata, stang, lambo, Porsche) and would take my car over all as its just an easier car for me to go fast in while I could tell the others would be faster, but just a lot more work to get there. Once again these are all really fast cars, and it really is driver dependent, just think the M let's the worse driver look the best as its very forgiving and I definitely need a little forgiveness for my past indiscretions
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      10-01-2012, 02:39 PM   #116
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Got to admit it sounds good. Baffles removed from buttonwillow this weekend


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13 E92 M3 ZCP
Stock w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:33:9 / BW C13 2:03:6 / ACS 1:56:7
KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
APR Wing/Rs3 - WSIR 1:30:9 / BW C13 1:57:7

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      10-03-2012, 12:30 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD
Got to admit it sounds good. Baffles removed from buttonwillow this weekend


Sounds great, very deep and mean sound!! Love it!
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      10-03-2012, 01:12 PM   #118
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there is been a few head to head comparos. M3 has won those comparos, but, I agree, the Boss is a great drivers car, easy to drive as well. not like that GT500 beast........
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      10-03-2012, 03:28 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD View Post
Got to admit it sounds good. Baffles removed from buttonwillow this weekend


You quickly closed in on that S2K.

Do you have the trackey installed?

Car sounds really good and nice driving too!
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      10-03-2012, 04:01 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klammer View Post
Would have to agree with all these comments as they reflect my personal experience. There are countless "faster" cars on track than my M but I am consistent and relentless and the car allows me that freedom. The M is a very easy car to drive fast and think that's where the true difference lies. Have driven a few cars on track now (miata, stang, lambo, Porsche) and would take my car over all as its just an easier car for me to go fast in while I could tell the others would be faster, but just a lot more work to get there. Once again these are all really fast cars, and it really is driver dependent, just think the M let's the worse driver look the best as its very forgiving and I definitely need a little forgiveness for my past indiscretions
The M IS very easy to drive...plus it has lower limits than cars like a 911 (even more so if we are talking a GTx model)...so you can get closer to its max whereas in a 911 or Lambo that max is much higher and you need to learn and be better to really take advantage of it.
On the other hand, you could take a car like a Cayman S and run circles around most everyone as well because it's SO easy to drive and it has very high limits at the same time. Same with a GTR.
It's all about what you ultimately want. A person who learns to drive a 911 the way it should be will lay waste to nearly everyone and will be a better driver (generally speaking) than someone in something that masks and covers up novice driving.
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      10-03-2012, 04:31 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92_m3 View Post
You quickly closed in on that S2K.

Do you have the trackey installed?

Car sounds really good and nice driving too!
Thanks! I dont have the track key installed. Just have the baffles removed (most people do it, they are on the side exhaust and takes 5 mins to pull them out, used to make it pass sound levels)
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Stock w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:33:9 / BW C13 2:03:6 / ACS 1:56:7
KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
APR Wing/Rs3 - WSIR 1:30:9 / BW C13 1:57:7
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      10-03-2012, 11:19 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD
Quote:
Originally Posted by e92_m3 View Post
You quickly closed in on that S2K.

Do you have the trackey installed?

Car sounds really good and nice driving too!
Thanks! I dont have the track key installed. Just have the baffles removed (most people do it, they are on the side exhaust and takes 5 mins to pull them out, used to make it pass sound levels)
Track key isnt worth it imo.
Give up 2 years of warranty for 30-40 hp. The car is powerful enough for the track.
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      10-04-2012, 01:02 AM   #123
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Track key isnt worth it imo.
Give up 2 years of warranty for 30-40 hp. The car is powerful enough for the track.
Track key doesn't add any power

Not sure about the warranty thou
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Stock w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:33:9 / BW C13 2:03:6 / ACS 1:56:7
KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
APR Wing/Rs3 - WSIR 1:30:9 / BW C13 1:57:7
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      10-04-2012, 01:52 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD
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Originally Posted by Beemw335 View Post
Track key isnt worth it imo.
Give up 2 years of warranty for 30-40 hp. The car is powerful enough for the track.
Track key doesn't add any power

Not sure about the warranty thou
It actually does.
Its not advertised to add power, but if you go on mustang forums many owners have done before and after dynos and it does in fact add about 30 hp.
Warranty is reduced to 3yr instead of the typical 5yr.( only if ford believe the problem was caused by the tune)
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      10-04-2012, 09:22 AM   #125
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It actually does.
Its not advertised to add power, but if you go on mustang forums many owners have done before and after dynos and it does in fact add about 30 hp.
Warranty is reduced to 3yr instead of the typical 5yr.( only if ford believe the problem was caused by the tune)
I am on a few Mustang Forums and there are dynos showing it does NOT add power.

here made a few lb ft more and less HP
http://forums.themustangsource.com/f...esults-513505/

This guy gained 7-8 hp with Track Key - that could be dyno variance
http://www.boss302forum.com/index.ph...with-trac-key/

and ive seen some more
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Stock w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:33:9 / BW C13 2:03:6 / ACS 1:56:7
KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
APR Wing/Rs3 - WSIR 1:30:9 / BW C13 1:57:7

Last edited by TheKosherStogie; 10-04-2012 at 09:37 AM.
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      10-04-2012, 10:40 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemw335 View Post
It actually does.
Its not advertised to add power, but if you go on mustang forums many owners have done before and after dynos and it does in fact add about 30 hp.
Warranty is reduced to 3yr instead of the typical 5yr.( only if ford believe the problem was caused by the tune)
I am on a few Mustang Forums and there are dynos showing it does NOT add power.

here made a few lb ft more and less HP
http://forums.themustangsource.com/f...esults-513505/

This guy gained 7-8 hp with Track Key - that could be dyno variance
http://www.boss302forum.com/index.ph...with-trac-key/

and ive seen some more
Hmm thats weird for some reason I remember seeing power gains.
I stand corrected.
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      10-04-2012, 10:59 AM   #127
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Hmm thats weird for some reason I remember seeing power gains.
I stand corrected.
All good! I heard that too for a while but the most recent info shows this.
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KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
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      10-06-2012, 08:04 PM   #128
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For your viewing pleasure click the vid below....



That was my former boss that I do sorely miss. Especially when I'm at the track. It was one of the most neutral cars I've ever driven on track.

With 500 miles and bone stock it ran a 1:27 at streets of willow. And I'm no pro. I haven't seen an m3 touch that time on that track stock. Also remeber this is probably the worst track for a solid rear axle car! But then again I couldn't touch my buddies e92 m3 at chuckwalla, his only mod was re11's
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      10-06-2012, 08:10 PM   #129
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Btw the boss is a roadrunner motor and not a coyote. And the cylinder 8 failures were caused by bad tuners and not on stock cars. The tuners found a fix and that issue is history
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      10-06-2012, 08:54 PM   #130
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Vid isnt working/ popping up.
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Stock w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:33:9 / BW C13 2:03:6 / ACS 1:56:7
KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
APR Wing/Rs3 - WSIR 1:30:9 / BW C13 1:57:7
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      10-06-2012, 09:40 PM   #131
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The stock GT with $1500 in factory suspension kit erases any handling deficit the Mustang suffers against the M3. This $1500 is enough to make it the M3 equal/superior in all facets except style and interior material quality.

The Boss 302 is clearly an even better car. The best Mustang ever made, bar none and the choice of true enthusiasts who can't stomach the additional weight of the GT 500.

The F30 M3 with the turbo six has BMW playing catch up to Ford. BMW has a lot to prove to justify the excruciating premium they're asking, and the 2014.5 Mustang with IRS is going to really give performance-minded M3 shoppers reason to pause.
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      10-06-2012, 10:09 PM   #132
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You're smoking something good if you think the stock GT with the factory suspension kit handles as well as the M3. Even Mustang lover Randy Pobst admitted the dampers are not in the same league.
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