Asking dealer to reveal their purchase price for a used M3

fongpi · 09-29-2012, 06:31 AM

Do you think the dealer would agree to show me their bill of sale when purchasing the vehicle? I would want them to agree to show me the documents after I say "yes, let's start the paperwork." Or do you think the dealer would be reluctant to show this information?

mdosu · 09-29-2012, 06:42 AM

for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers

You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost...

MMME30W · 09-29-2012, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fongpi

Do you think the dealer would agree to show me their bill of sale when purchasing the vehicle? I would want them to agree to show me the documents after I say "yes, let's start the paperwork." Or do you think the dealer would be reluctant to show this information?

No.

Why should they?

Would you disclose your cost in a transaction?

What does the prior deal have to do with what YOU are willing to pay for a vehicle?

MMME30W · 09-29-2012, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdosu

for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers

You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost...

/thread

fongpi · 09-29-2012, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdosu

for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers

You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost...

The formula to calculate COGS (Cost of Good Sold) is pretty simple and straightforward. The purpose of this exercise is to see the true profit margin, and to help me better identify a dealer which says that they are selling at a loss, when they really are not. I don't care about how the dealer came to their purchase price, as long as I find out what it cost them, in relation to what had cost me.

fongpi · 09-29-2012, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMME30W

No.

Why should they?

Would you disclose your cost in a transaction?

What does the prior deal have to do with what YOU are willing to pay for a vehicle?

What if I get them to agree to show me their paperwork after I sign papers? It would have to be a verbal agreement of course. And I probably won't be able to do this at a BMW dealership per say, but probably at a used car lot.

If I was selling a car and I knew that it was overpriced, and someone was willing to pay the amount I'm asking as long as I "show my cards" at the end of the deal, why not? Sure, I'd be willing to tell reveal this information...

MMME30W · 09-29-2012, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fongpi

What if I get them to agree to show me their paperwork after I sign papers? It would have to be a verbal agreement of course. And I probably won't be able to do this at a BMW dealership per say, but probably at a used car lot.

If I was selling a car and I knew that it was overpriced, and someone was willing to pay the amount I'm asking as long as I "show my cards" at the end of the deal, why not? Sure, I'd be willing to tell reveal this information...

Good luck in the business world.

Ghetto2315 · 09-29-2012, 07:35 AM

socalm3lover · 09-29-2012, 07:44 AM

What would be the point? It is actually none of your business and would be too late to change what you pay. The car is worth what you are willing to pay, it has nothing to do with what they paid for it.

Would you pay $70 grand for a used M3 just because they had paid $68 grand for it? I did not think so. Must be the water.

KIS · 09-29-2012, 08:45 AM

If someone asked my COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) in my business, I would ever so politely tell them to FO (Fuck Off).

SamS · 09-29-2012, 09:02 AM

There is zero value in learning the dealer's cost, don't bother. Besides, even if you knew what they paid for it, that's not their true cost. They pay inventory tax, and other costs of doing business for acquiring, and keeping, that car on the lot.

The only thing that matters is if you think you are getting a fair deal.

Team Plutonium · 09-29-2012, 09:24 AM

You sound like a nightmare to deal with...

passing · 09-29-2012, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fongpi

What if I get them to agree to show me their paperwork after I sign papers? It would have to be a verbal agreement of course. And I probably won't be able to do this at a BMW dealership per say, but probably at a used car lot.

If I was selling a car and I knew that it was overpriced, and someone was willing to pay the amount I'm asking as long as I "show my cards" at the end of the deal, why not? Sure, I'd be willing to tell reveal this information...

ill give you a bajillion dollars if you wash my car. i swear, i will.

really.

gatorfast · 09-29-2012, 10:34 AM

Why would the dealer do that and why would you care?

Also why are you asking this question on here? Just go to the dealer and ask them (but be prepared for an immediate NO).

jphughan · 09-29-2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fongpi

What if I get them to agree to show me their paperwork after I sign papers? It would have to be a verbal agreement of course. And I probably won't be able to do this at a BMW dealership per say, but probably at a used car lot.

If I was selling a car and I knew that it was overpriced, and someone was willing to pay the amount I'm asking as long as I "show my cards" at the end of the deal, why not? Sure, I'd be willing to tell reveal this information...

They wouldn't show you even afterward because even though you can't change your offer, it might affect what you say about them to friends, in online reviews, etc, like "They totally gouged me" or "They had X% profit margin even after I negotiated $X below their asking price, so if you go there push even harder."

Besides, their true cost isn't easy to determine anyway. They have to factor all of their operating costs into the cars they sell, so it's not as simple as what they paid for the car. People have entire businesses around helping other companies just DETERMINING what their true cost of goods sold is, never mind how to reduce said costs.

It's not for you to determine how much they're "allowed" to profit from your purchase, or even know, nor should they feel obligated to limit their profit margins. You get to decide what you're willing to pay, and they decide what they want, both of those determinations based on supply and demand as others have said.

tlp · 09-29-2012, 11:16 AM

Lol...COGS.

Why don't you ask them for a Balance Sheet and a full P&L while your at it

Sirius Black · 09-29-2012, 11:46 AM

The general responses you're getting are spot on. I am in the car business, and a dealer is NOT going to reveal the cost of a pre-owened vehicle. It's worth what it's worth regardless of how much they paid for it. It is true though that sometimes we as dealers overpay for a trade, or have reconditioning costs that are unexpected that result in selling vehicles for a loss.

Transfer · 09-29-2012, 11:51 AM

This guy...

Sounds like a case of I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

osteome · 09-29-2012, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIS

If someone asked my COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) in my business, I would ever so politely tell them to FO (Fuck Off).

I guess the OP needs to find a non-profit dealer?

Maloney · 09-29-2012, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fongpi

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdosu

for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers

You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost...

The formula to calculate COGS (Cost of Good Sold) is pretty simple and straightforward. The purpose of this exercise is to see the true profit margin, and to help me better identify a dealer which says that they are selling at a loss, when they really are not. I don't care about how the dealer came to their purchase price, as long as I find out what it cost them, in relation to what had cost me.

It's very simple to determine the YDKWTFYATA formula for posters. This acronym stands for "you don't know what the FCK you are talking about." If you truly want advice, the answer is no, the dealership will not provide you with this.

Use your budget, find which cars fit in the budget. Then breakdown the important factors. Year? low mileage? Comp package? No accidents? Options? Supercharger testing mule? Enthusiast owned or a lease by a company who's owner beat the piss out out it? Warranty?

After all that, you will determine fair market value. Since your buying used, there are plenty of comps you will see in the for sale section of this forum to determine prices by year.

NoM3ForMe · 09-29-2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

You sound like a nightmare to deal with...

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIS

If someone asked my COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) in my business, I would ever so politely tell them to FO (Fuck Off).

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamS

There is zero value in learning the dealer's cost, don't bother. Besides, even if you knew what they paid for it, that's not their true cost. They pay inventory tax, and other costs of doing business for acquiring, and keeping, that car on the lot.

The only thing that matters is if you think you are getting a fair deal.

These three posts deliver.

MMME30W · 09-29-2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoM3ForMe

These three posts deliver.

+1

09-29-2012, 06:31 AM	#1
fongpi Private First Class Drives: NA Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: San Francisco, Ca Posts: 138 iTrader: (0)	Asking dealer to reveal their purchase price for a used M3 Do you think the dealer would agree to show me their bill of sale when purchasing the vehicle? I would want them to agree to show me the documents after I say "yes, let's start the paperwork." Or do you think the dealer would be reluctant to show this information?
	Tweet

09-29-2012, 06:42 AM	#2
mdosu Help! Can't decide btw MW & AW, 1st world problems Drives: 2008.99989 SSII E90 "Civic" Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,950 iTrader: (4)	for a pre-owned, they'll just lie to you, it's very opaque b/c they buy from different price points b/c each car is "unique" in a sense and has a story to it (trade in, lease return, auction). For new, they'll just give you their invoice price, and that's somewhat misleading b/c as I understand the business, dealers also get volume discounts and other incentives from manufacturers You must be new to this business thing huh? Your price is based on supply and demand, not cost... __________________ Yes, that's a xmas tree in my trunk

09-29-2012, 09:24 AM	#12
Team Plutonium Major General Drives: 911 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate Posts: 8,514 iTrader: (1)	You sound like a nightmare to deal with... __________________ Gone... ESS VT2-625 \| ESS Tune \| M24 Oil Cooler \| Brembo 380mm BBK \| Dinan 4.10 Diff \| KW Variant 3 Coilovers \| Dinan Camber Plates \| Dinan Strut Tower Braces \| Dinan X-Pipe \| Akrapovic Exhaust \| Vorsteiner GTS3 Bumper \| Varis System One Diffuser \| OEM Performance Spoiler \| Stack Gauges \| GTS Door Sills \| Volk TE37 \| Falken Azenis RT615K 275/315 \| Pulled Fenders \| Turner Stud Kit \| OMP ARS Racing Seats New: 991C2S

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09-29-2012, 07:35 AM	#8
Ghetto2315 Captain Drives: Like I Stole It... Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 757 iTrader: (1) Garage List 2012 BMW M3 E92 [3.20] 2010 GENESIS COUPE ... [5.00] 2001 JEEP WRANGLER ... [5.00]

09-29-2012, 07:44 AM	#9
socalm3lover Private First Class Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: May 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 112 iTrader: (0)	What would be the point? It is actually none of your business and would be too late to change what you pay. The car is worth what you are willing to pay, it has nothing to do with what they paid for it. Would you pay $70 grand for a used M3 just because they had paid $68 grand for it? I did not think so. Must be the water.

09-29-2012, 08:45 AM	#10
KIS Lieutenant Drives: 2011 M3 Coupe Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 504 iTrader: (0)	If someone asked my COGS (Cost Of Goods Sold) in my business, I would ever so politely tell them to FO (Fuck Off).

09-29-2012, 09:02 AM	#11
SamS Brigadier General Drives: 2013 ActiveHybrid 3 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 4,064 iTrader: (0)	There is zero value in learning the dealer's cost, don't bother. Besides, even if you knew what they paid for it, that's not their true cost. They pay inventory tax, and other costs of doing business for acquiring, and keeping, that car on the lot. The only thing that matters is if you think you are getting a fair deal.

09-29-2012, 10:34 AM	#14
gatorfast Lieutenant Colonel Drives: MR E90 M3 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SoFla Posts: 1,812 iTrader: (3)	Why would the dealer do that and why would you care? Also why are you asking this question on here? Just go to the dealer and ask them (but be prepared for an immediate NO).

09-29-2012, 11:16 AM	#16
tlp Lieutenant Colonel Drives: '11 e92 M3 SG/FR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 1,659 iTrader: (6) Garage List 2011 BMW e92 M3 [4.55] 2003 BMW e46 M3 \| Sold [0.00] 1996 BMW e36 M3 \| Sold [0.00]	Lol...COGS. Why don't you ask them for a Balance Sheet and a full P&L while your at it

09-29-2012, 11:46 AM	#17
Sirius Black Private Drives: 2009 E90 M3 6sp man Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Annapolis, MD Posts: 78 iTrader: (0)	The general responses you're getting are spot on. I am in the car business, and a dealer is NOT going to reveal the cost of a pre-owened vehicle. It's worth what it's worth regardless of how much they paid for it. It is true though that sometimes we as dealers overpay for a trade, or have reconditioning costs that are unexpected that result in selling vehicles for a loss.

09-29-2012, 11:51 AM	#18
Transfer Captain Drives: E90 M3, X1 xDrive28i Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 807 iTrader: (0)	This guy... Sounds like a case of I'll show you mine if you show me yours.