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      09-14-2012, 07:00 PM   #1
yakev724
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US/Islam Incompatibility

As Maddow pointed out last night, many of those protesting believe that the lack of censorship of the anti-Islam movie on our government's end equates to our (U.S.') support of its message. The majority of Americans couldn't care less, let alone understand what's going on, but that's not easy to explain to someone whose idea of Americans' views may be shaped by something other than accurate reporting. In addition (and I don't speak from any personal or related experience), I think the concept of free speech and it's occasional side-effects may be completely foreign to someone raised in a Muslim nation, taught to respect Muhammad/Allah above all else, with zero tolerance for their criticism.


I think we face a potentially big problem for our future, seeing as this may not be the last time something like this comes up. A quarter of the world's people are Muslim and many Muslim nations pose a challenge (or opportunity, in cooperation) resource/military-wise, and I believe it's critical that we find some way to not appear disrespectful. I believe it's the government's role to act accordingly and consistently.


Christian ignorance doesn't help either. 9/11 was viewed as an act of extremism, but an attack during sustained anti-US protests could have much broader effects, primarily in shaping the reaction of a large portion of Americans.


As an aside, Bachmann/McCain's comments about Muslims and Muslim-nations (or what the media makes them out to be) are working completely against what I believe should be our goal. I see absolutely no support in mending this issue from the GOP, only ignorant comments and threats to the nations in question.


Thoughts? Would really like to hear some muslims pitch in, I know we have a few on the boards...





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      09-14-2012, 07:25 PM   #2
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Key word is incompatibility.

There is no solution. As much as some people here want to be the "more civilized culture" and deal with things "on our level" and not stoop down to their level, that shit is never going to work. They don't understand apologies as a sign of a progressed culture, they see it as a weakness. They don't care if we're aiding the poor and weak, they only see us as Infidels.

Of course that doesn't apply to all Muslims, I'm speaking only of the ever-present extremist one, who lately seem to be really commonplace and their reactions incredibly severe.

We don't need to be going into the Middle East, with its thousands of years of backwards (to us) culture, and doing things halfway. Either leave them alone (to include aid), or go in there and don't be afraid to get down on their level.
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      09-14-2012, 07:30 PM   #3
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Take all of our aide back, close the embassy(s), and not have to go into this massive budget cut come January 2nd. Though it looks like that won't be enough to stop it either, but atleast we don't have to borrow any more currency to pay for these people to be our "allies". Though I know these radical few don't speak for the vast popualtion of these countries, but I bet its more than we think....
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      09-14-2012, 07:45 PM   #4
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Their goal (the fundamentalists) is to instate sharia law, and rule throughout every country in the world, through conquest, that is the foundation of their religion if you don't believe me please pick up a Qu'ran and read it, they want to fly their black flag over the USA as well! Look at what is going on in the UK, it's very scary! We must not make the same mistakes that the Brits did with their tolerance (of the fundamentalists actions)!

This is the kind of shit that is going down in the UNITED KINGDOM RIGHT NOW, WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!





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      09-14-2012, 08:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
Key word is incompatibility.

There is no solution. As much as some people here want to be the "more civilized culture" and deal with things "on our level" and not stoop down to their level, that shit is never going to work. They don't understand apologies as a sign of a progressed culture, they see it as a weakness. They don't care if we're aiding the poor and weak, they only see us as Infidels.

Of course that doesn't apply to all Muslims, I'm speaking only of the ever-present extremist one, who lately seem to be really commonplace and their reactions incredibly severe.

We don't need to be going into the Middle East, with its thousands of years of backwards (to us) culture, and doing things halfway. Either leave them alone (to include aid), or go in there and don't be afraid to get down on their level.
Yup... what he said...

You can't reason someone out of a position that they didnt reason themselves into. Trying to explain that the western definition of freedom of speech means you CAN in fact insult religious figures would be a colossal waste of time. Might as well try and explain multivariable differential calculus to my cat.

Trying not to appear disrespectful is futile. I'm sure as these savages were plugging this ambassador full of lead (the same guy who is trying to improve their lot in life with billions of US aid), that appearing respectful to western sensibilities was the last thing on their mind.

Cut them off. The only good thing there we need is oil, and there are lots of other unexploited sources of that in the arctic and places.
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      09-14-2012, 09:35 PM   #6
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The only good thing there we need is oil, and there are lots of other unexploited sources of that in the arctic and places.
If oil wasn't in the sand box, no one in the west would pay attention to them. But since there is, this is the results. This crap has been going on in that area of the world since the first chapter of the Bible and it is not going to change. The bad thing is we have injected ourselves into it for that oil.
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      09-14-2012, 10:37 PM   #7
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I don't know man, i'm all for letting bygones be bygones, but when the bygone wants to kill me or my way of life i'm prepared to rid the world of one more intolerant extremist.

I mean i agree that freedom of speech isn't permission to insult people or their beliefs. But it has to go both ways. I don't see any restraint from them when insulting me, my beliefs and way of life. If it can't go both ways, i say GTFO and don't come back.

This country was founded partly due to religious persecution and i personally see this as a form of reverse persecution. Part of our core values as a nation is to allow all to worship who they wish. However the law allowing freedom of religion doesn't supersede all other laws.
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      09-14-2012, 11:30 PM   #8
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This isn't about a damn video. Our country, from near the founding, have been fighting Islamist. The Barbary pirates were beaten down in Tripoli in 1801 by the Marines. Newsflash, they weren't mad that George Bush invaded Iraq.

The moral equivalency of "hurt feelings" over a crappy-made video vs. Muslims who actually behead or hang Americans from a bridge and burn their bodies on national tv is a sign of the biggest form of cowardice. You can not appease evil. PERIOD.

When you start to understand that they want nothing but to kill non-believers or have them bow before them - then you'll get why they get angry. When they bombed the Marine barracks in 1983 (newsflash, Bush wasn't to blame then either) - Reagan shot a missile up Ghaddafi's kid's ass and he was quiet for the next 25 years.

I miss the days when the USS New Jersey launched a 16-inch gun broadside against Libya and carpet-bombed them into submission. You f@#$ with the dragon, you get the tail.
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      09-25-2012, 02:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofthedemo View Post
Their goal (the fundamentalists) is to instate sharia law, and rule throughout every country in the world, through conquest, that is the foundation of their religion if you don't believe me please pick up a Qu'ran and read it, they want to fly their black flag over the USA as well! Look at what is going on in the UK, it's very scary! We must not make the same mistakes that the Brits did with their tolerance (of the fundamentalists actions)!

This is the kind of shit that is going down in the UNITED KINGDOM RIGHT NOW, WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!!





Your comments and posts are so IDIOTIC.
That's like saying go look at KKK and that's what the Bible says and all Christians believe.

Wake up buddy

Last edited by Raja Ventureshield; 09-25-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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      09-25-2012, 03:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raja Ventureshield View Post
Your comments and posts are so IDIOTIC.
That's like saying go look at KKK and that's what the Bible says and all Christians believe.

Wake up buddy
Funny how you can look through these posts, and there's nothing about the right-wing army wacko who thought Sihks were Muslims and killed a bunch of them. What's scary is how he developed the mindset that justified his actions.
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      09-25-2012, 06:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakev724 View Post
As Maddow pointed out last night, many of those protesting believe that the lack of censorship of the anti-Islam movie on our government's end equates to our (U.S.') support of its message. The majority of Americans couldn't care less, let alone understand what's going on, but that's not easy to explain to someone whose idea of Americans' views may be shaped by something other than accurate reporting. In addition (and I don't speak from any personal or related experience), I think the concept of free speech and it's occasional side-effects may be completely foreign to someone raised in a Muslim nation, taught to respect Muhammad/Allah above all else, with zero tolerance for their criticism.
Spot-on


Quote:
I believe it's critical that we find some way to not appear disrespectful. I believe it's the government's role to act accordingly and consistently.
FCUK NO! Respect is earned, and if they can get what they want by throwing a temper tantrum, it validates their behavior and sends EXACTLY the wrong message. We simply don't have to follow the rules of their religion, and free speech is critical to our way of lives. Other peoples opinions of their religions makes no difference in their lives other than possibly making them question their brozne-age primitive fairy tales.



Irony: Protesting freedom of speech, and starting murderous riots over a video that accuses Islam of being violent Do these protesters have the faintest clue how allah-damn stupid they are?
[/quote]



For the record, I think Obama is handling this superbly.

Here's a depiction of Mohammad...
-<--<

Last edited by carve; 09-26-2012 at 08:28 AM.
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      09-26-2012, 07:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post

Irony: Protesting free speech, and starting murderous riots over a video that accuses Islam of being violent Do these protesters have the faintest clue how allah-damn stupid they are?

That is perhaps the best thing I've read in quite a long time and so completely true.
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      09-26-2012, 12:58 PM   #13
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That is perhaps the best thing I've read in quite a long time and so completely true.
+1

"How dare you suggest my religion is rooted in violence? Just to show you how wrong you are, I'll burn down your embassy and murder your ambassador."
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      09-27-2012, 02:06 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakev724 View Post
As Maddow pointed out last night, many of those protesting believe that the lack of censorship of the anti-Islam movie on our government's end equates to our (U.S.') support of its message. The majority of Americans couldn't care less, let alone understand what's going on, but that's not easy to explain to someone whose idea of Americans' views may be shaped by something other than accurate reporting. In addition (and I don't speak from any personal or related experience), I think the concept of free speech and it's occasional side-effects may be completely foreign to someone raised in a Muslim nation, taught to respect Muhammad/Allah above all else, with zero tolerance for their criticism.


I think we face a potentially big problem for our future, seeing as this may not be the last time something like this comes up. A quarter of the world's people are Muslim and many Muslim nations pose a challenge (or opportunity, in cooperation) resource/military-wise, and I believe it's critical that we find some way to not appear disrespectful. I believe it's the government's role to act accordingly and consistently.


Christian ignorance doesn't help either. 9/11 was viewed as an act of extremism, but an attack during sustained anti-US protests could have much broader effects, primarily in shaping the reaction of a large portion of Americans.


As an aside, Bachmann/McCain's comments about Muslims and Muslim-nations (or what the media makes them out to be) are working completely against what I believe should be our goal. I see absolutely no support in mending this issue from the GOP, only ignorant comments and threats to the nations in question.


Thoughts? Would really like to hear some muslims pitch in, I know we have a few on the boards...




Some Muslims are not the only ones that are over sensitive and easily offended. Others call this anti-semitism and call the person as being anti-semitic if they are criticized,see something not to their likings or hear something not to their likings. Zero tolerance for their criticism not only exists among the religious Muslims but also among the religious Jews as well.

These people were wrong though about their violent protests.

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      09-27-2012, 10:03 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by stylinexpat View Post
Some Muslims are not the only ones that are over sensitive and easily offended. Others call this anti-semitism and call the person as being anti-semitic if they are criticized,see something not to their likings or hear something not to their likings. Zero tolerance for their criticism not only exists among the religious Muslims but also among the religious Jews as well.


]
So, you guys want to be like the less tolerant jews?

Also, neo-nazi groups and MANY others say bad things about jews all the time and it's constitutionally protected speech. In fact, not only is it protected, but also sometimes hilarious




Your video is basically someone saying the religion does not support the riots. That's a no-true-Scotsman fallacy. The religion is as the religion does, and this protest was not secular in nature. It is good seeing the particular cleric in the video trying to police his own though. A few million more like him and we might be getting somewhere.

Last edited by carve; 09-27-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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      09-27-2012, 06:25 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by carve View Post

Also, neo-nazi groups and MANY others say bad things about jews all the time and it's constitutionally protected speech. In fact, not only is it protected, but also sometimes hilarious
You read my mind.
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      09-30-2012, 10:59 AM   #17
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It's hard to talk about fairness and respect to an entire culture that believes women are inferior to men and should be treated as such.
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      10-05-2012, 01:32 PM   #18
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Hello

I'm a Muslim who's lived in the US nearly all my life. The reaction by Muslims to insulting Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) was completely un-Islamic and unjustified.

I consider myself a very conservative Muslim - one who tries to follow all that is in the Quran. Do you know what that entails? One could only know if they read the Quran...not mainstream media and it's depiction of what's in the Quran, but truly read it. I encourage you to learn about it as it will truly open your eyes.

I can't summarize the Quran in a simple post, but it is no different than the Bible or Torah in that self-defense is permissible but harming someone unjustly is a sin.

Unforunately, this is taken out of context and abused - both by Muslims who try to wield power and abuse people and Islamophobes who try to slander Islam.

Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) was simply a messenger in the same mold that Prophets Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus were (peace be upon them all). However, if you read his biography you would realize that he (peace be upon him) was a true mercy to mankind. Is it any surprise that in the early 1980's he was found to be the most influential person of all time? Do you wonder why? A non-Muslim explains...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100

So to insult a person of his (peace be upon him) stature is truly an insult to Muslims. Granted, a reaction like harming another soul is diametrically opposed to all that Islam stands for and that these people were acting outside of Islam.


However, Islam is easily compatible with America, Europe and anywhere else you may mention. I, and millions of other Muslims, am a testament to that. It is people who try to gain notoriety and incite hatred who amplify such extremists to the point that one would think all Muslims are like that.

If that were the case, would you conclude that Hitler represents all of Christianity?

Or that the KKK is the embodiment of America and Christians?

Or that the apartheid attitude of Israel is that of all Jews?

No.

Islam is the first religion to allow women the right to vote, divorce and be equals to their husbands. I refer you to the Quran to support these statements and await any proof otherwise. All this in an era of oppression of women throughout the world.

Peace
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      10-05-2012, 01:38 PM   #19
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the claims that Islam was spread by the sword is an ancient lie from the Middle Ages for which there is no proof whatsoever, where is yours?

Moreover, the Quran states "there is no compulsion in religion" and that one can not simply be coerced into accepting Islam as it is not accepted in that manner.

Peace
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      10-05-2012, 05:42 PM   #20
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I find it funny that all the Atheists that come out in droves to disparage anything and everything Christian are so eerily silent when confronting Islam for its faults or similar anti-religious arguments.

Wannabe internet Atheist bullies love to hit hard against usually passive Christians but are too damn scared to level the same charges against Islam.

Balls up Atheists..
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      10-05-2012, 06:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgrovr View Post
I find it funny that all the Atheists that come out in droves to disparage anything and everything Christian are so eerily silent when confronting Islam for its faults or similar anti-religious arguments.

Wannabe internet Atheist bullies love to hit hard against usually passive Christians but are too damn scared to level the same charges against Islam.

Balls up Atheists..
Huh ???

The existence of this very thread containing uncomplimentary statements confronting Islam for it's faults disproves your assertion.

Don't worry, this forum is sufficiently insulting and disrespectful that everyone's God gets sand kicked in his face....
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      10-05-2012, 11:48 PM   #22
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ITT everyone is weird
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