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      09-17-2012, 06:57 PM   #1
BimmerRob08
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ARC-8 wheels have a light hop after 6,000 easy miles??

The facts.

Installed APracing calipers and had 12mm spacers with stock 18" wheels.
Upgraded to ARC-8 wheels about 6,000 miles ago (1 year) with new PS2's. 245/40R18 & 265/40R18's.
Had local BMW dealer road-force balance wheels which took a while due to fine tuning balance about a year ago (<6,000 miles ago)

About 2 weeks ago I notice slight vibration again in the stearing wheel about 76-82mph. Amplified vibration under normal to hard breaking on freeway.

BMW dealer spent two days road force balancing again. Vibration manifests itself at about 82mph. No amplified vibration under breaking. Dealership tech noticed rear wheels had a slight hop to them while on the tester.

Haven't hit any hard bumps or pot-holes that I would think could have bent the wheels. No damage, nothing of the sort.

What is strange is when the tires were brand new, dealership was able to almost zero out the vibration. Only after 6,000 or so miles of easy driving, same dealer, same tech, same road-force balancer can't get the vibration out.

Dealership said they have a contract tech that can fix wheels but how do you fix a almost brand new wheel that never suffered hard enough impact to cause this?

I'm guessing the wheel(s) were never really completely hop-free or at least well within tolorance to zero out.

Is this something ARC would cover since the wheels are less than a year old?

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Thank you!!

RB
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      09-17-2012, 07:03 PM   #2
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That's strange man, I have had my arc wheels for awhile now and have felt a little vibration as well but it's so minor and at speed that I thought I was just being paranoid or that it was the road. I had a set of faulty rims (not from apex, I actually love these rims) that vibrated non stop so when I got the apex arc 8 I was super critical and all my friends told me I was being paranoid. Would love to find out more about this
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      09-17-2012, 11:29 PM   #3
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yeah I like these wheels too and they clear my APracing calipers. But it's strange that when the tires where brand new (6,000 miles ago) BMW dealer was able to fine tune the balance and for a while I had no noticable vibration at 75+mph. Then I guess in the last few weeks the vibration developed after a few days I've done a little spirited driving on the mountain switch backs here I start to notice the vibe in the steering wheel at speed. At first it I noticed when under braking, the vibration was amplified. But the dealer now has been able to balance that out so no vibe at braking anymore. But still get that wheel shake at 75mph or faster.

I sent an email of to APEX. Have to wait for a responce.
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      09-18-2012, 02:42 AM   #4
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I am currently out of the country so it will be hard to provide additional timely responses/posts to your question until I return, but I'm sure the other staff will provide a follow up via email to the question you submitted.

I'm sorry to hear you're having vibration issues with your wheels, I understand that can be frustration to trouble shoot, and determine the cause.

You mentioned light use for a year. Many variables can cause a wheel to be damaged from use. I'll explain below what may have happened here.

The traditional staggered combination we provide for the E9X M3 is 9.5" front and 10.5" rear. If this is the combination you have, then 245/265 is undersized for the wheel width (stretched). This is not the tire sizes we recommend to for this fitment, as we traditionally recommend 265/285 for those wheel sizes. We have customers who run narrower sizes on our wide wheels but we point out that it is not ideal, and that the tires will be stretched. This combination is usually done when reusing the tires from a previous set, and we point out that it is a short term compromise. Michelin PS2 tires are also known to run very narrow compared to other brands/sizes and they have a soft sidewall. The new Michelin Super sport (PS2 replacement) is noticeably meatier. Undersized tires provide less protection for the wheel rim, which increases the stress they go through. When a bump or pot-hole is hit, more stress is passed through to the wheel. Run-flat tires for example also stress wheels excessively, which is why it's common for brand new BMW wheels to crack on new unmodified cars (the 1 series is a good example of countless cracked wheels). It's very possible that an impact caused an issue here.

It's difficult to determine the cause of your issue as it's a recent occurrence that started after a spirited drive, and there is no way of determining what the wheels have really been through.

You describe wheel hop that can be detected by the technician on the balancer. Can you be more specific regarding the issue you're experiencing? Is the wheel lip bent, or is there another way you can define the characteristic of the movement?

Please provide as much detail as you can. Once we have a better understanding of the issue, we can determine if this is a warrantable issue, in which case we will provide replacements at no cost to you. If the wheels were vulnerable to extra stress due to undersized tires, it's very possible they were damaged from use that is not covered. If that is the case, we will still be able to provide discounted replacements.

I should be back in the office and available to follow-up on Wednesday. I apologize for having to provide a response that makes assumptions about your possible circumstances, but I wanted to provide a timely response.

Thank you for your understanding,

-Eddy P
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      09-18-2012, 09:21 AM   #5
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Sure its not the tires or the spacer? Seems like more if a tire issue.
Really not cool to through a company under the bus with so many variables and very little info.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

Last edited by aus; 09-18-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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      09-18-2012, 12:05 PM   #6
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Interesting. I have a set of ARC-8's as well, running 9.5 and 10.5 265/285 PSS tires. I've been thrilled other than a vibration that manifests exactly as the OP has described. Very minor, and starts from 75 MPH -to low 80's. I have yet to go the route of determining the cause, though when they were mounted there wasn't any runout to speak of and everything road force balanced under 25 lbs IIRC.

No spacers and tires were mounted brand new.
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      09-18-2012, 04:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Sure its not the tires or the spacer? Seems like more if a tire issue.
Really not cool to through a company under the bus with so many variables and very little info.
If you can see the wheel itself vibrating on the balancer (as OP says you can), it's not the spacer or the tire.
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      09-18-2012, 04:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
If you can see the wheel itself vibrating on the balancer (as OP says you can), it's not the spacer or the tire.
Uneven/abnormal tire wear can cause wheel vibration on the balancer.
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      09-18-2012, 05:38 PM   #9
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STALKER had major issues with tires causing vibration in the past.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      09-18-2012, 05:48 PM   #10
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i have the same issue with when mounting the Arc-8 wheel but im pretty sure its my tire's, or exactly the way eddy explained it with a slightly stretched tire. but im deff thinking it is the tire!!!
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      09-18-2012, 09:29 PM   #11
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Take the tire off and spin it on a balancer. You'll see a hop if the wheel is not round.

I have 17x9 ARC8s and I've pretty much abused them in Korea. I hit countless potholes and bumps. Even launched my car on a highway expansion joint (the roads in Korea are THAT bad...I may have been slightly speeding too!). These wheels have held up really well. I would be surprised if you messed them up considering that your description does not include any serious impacts to the wheels.
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      09-20-2012, 12:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Sure its not the tires or the spacer? Seems like more if a tire issue.
Really not cool to through a company under the bus with so many variables and very little info.
In no way am I "throughing" APEX under the bus here. The facts are those are the wheels I have so I have to mention what wheels I am running. There are many variables and after a years time of course it'll be difficult to point to exactly the cause. I posted a brief topic and description and its open to discussion.
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      09-20-2012, 01:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy@ApexRaceParts View Post
I am currently out of the country so it will be hard to provide additional timely responses/posts to your question until I return, but I'm sure the other staff will provide a follow up via email to the question you submitted.

I'm sorry to hear you're having vibration issues with your wheels, I understand that can be frustration to trouble shoot, and determine the cause.

You mentioned light use for a year. Many variables can cause a wheel to be damaged from use. I'll explain below what may have happened here.

The traditional staggered combination we provide for the E9X M3 is 9.5" front and 10.5" rear. If this is the combination you have, then 245/265 is undersized for the wheel width (stretched). This is not the tire sizes we recommend to for this fitment, as we traditionally recommend 265/285 for those wheel sizes. We have customers who run narrower sizes on our wide wheels but we point out that it is not ideal, and that the tires will be stretched. This combination is usually done when reusing the tires from a previous set, and we point out that it is a short term compromise. Michelin PS2 tires are also known to run very narrow compared to other brands/sizes and they have a soft sidewall. The new Michelin Super sport (PS2 replacement) is noticeably meatier. Undersized tires provide less protection for the wheel rim, which increases the stress they go through. When a bump or pot-hole is hit, more stress is passed through to the wheel. Run-flat tires for example also stress wheels excessively, which is why it's common for brand new BMW wheels to crack on new unmodified cars (the 1 series is a good example of countless cracked wheels). It's very possible that an impact caused an issue here.

It's difficult to determine the cause of your issue as it's a recent occurrence that started after a spirited drive, and there is no way of determining what the wheels have really been through.

You describe wheel hop that can be detected by the technician on the balancer. Can you be more specific regarding the issue you're experiencing? Is the wheel lip bent, or is there another way you can define the characteristic of the movement?

Please provide as much detail as you can. Once we have a better understanding of the issue, we can determine if this is a warrantable issue, in which case we will provide replacements at no cost to you. If the wheels were vulnerable to extra stress due to undersized tires, it's very possible they were damaged from use that is not covered. If that is the case, we will still be able to provide discounted replacements.

I should be back in the office and available to follow-up on Wednesday. I apologize for having to provide a response that makes assumptions about your possible circumstances, but I wanted to provide a timely response.

Thank you for your understanding,

-Eddy P

Sir,

Thank you for the reply. Yes the tires size is from stock and was a short term fix since those tires were pretty much about 2 months old when I purchased the ARC-8's. The tires are slightly streatched but I don't consider them too far streatched. Compared to a stock ZCP M3 a friend has with OEM 19", the wall is pretty much about the same angled.

I am not running spacers with this set up. I mentioned spacers because I had to run spacers with the OEM 18" in order to clear the APracing calipers. So no spacers here as I know they were causing vibrations with the OEM 18" wheels.

The roads here in NM suck but because of that I am as carefull as one can be when driving around here. Most of the driving I do with this M3 is mainly highway use from Albuquerque to Santa Fe, 2 trips to Vegas, one to Colorado Springs and a few runs up to the crest which the road is pretty smooth for the most part. No real hard impacts that I would consider to be questionable as far as I remember.

When the wheels were brand new with the tires in question, it took the BMW dealer tech on a road force balancer 2 tries to get the front wheels zero'd out enough to where the ride was smooth from 0 up past 90mph and over. So again now after about 6,000 miles worth of driving, I developed the vibration again. I noticed last week on the way to the Crest as I was on I40East Bound that when I braked, the vibration was amplified and felt as a wobble in the steering wheel. Not the brake pedal. So that was when I decided to bring it to BMW for another balancing.

Now its certain that some tire wear will cause on a car like this to feel a out-of-balance situation at the wheels. But these PS2's have alot of tread life on them.

At the dealer, my rep there said the technition noticed a slight wobble on one of the rear wheels. I did not see it personnely but these guys are pretty good from my experiance dealing with them in the past. They did not think that all the wheels are out of run-out. I have the print out of the balance and just need to scan/upload it. But the right rear wheel required the most adjustment. The next day I had to bring it back to BMW because still I had an out of balance vibration in the steering wheel manifested at about 76mph.

It took him about 3.5 hours the next day to try to zero them out. The amplified vibration under braking is gone now but the steering wheel vibration is felt at about 80mph now.

To be clear, the vibration is very light and only noticable but not bad. But it should be smooth as it once was with OEM wheels and before I ever added APracing calipers.

I'm 99.99999% sure it's not the brakes. These brakes have never, ever even seen close to their max capability unfortunately and the brakes only have about 8,000 miles on them at the most and not tracked yet.

So its possible that the front tires are just slightly worn and cause this vibration but how is it possible that would mean every time I get new tires, after only 6K or more miles it'll vibrate and need to be changed? That's crazy I think. The last set of Michilen's I had where the OEM ones that came with the car brand new, lasted 25,000 miles when it was all OEM and never once did I feel a out of balance situation and at that time I lived in England where the roads suck almost as bad as here and I tracked the car at several different tracks including Nurburgring.

So I feel there are a few possibilites. 1.) the wheels are good and the tires are just slighly worn and the M3 is sensitive enough to feel the change. 2.) these wheel(s) took a hit and have a bend to one or more that can't be seen directly. 3.) The tech doesn't know how to balance wheels or the machine is out of calabration, which I seriously doubt.

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out how to go about this without having to get new tires just yet. BMW rep said there is a technition they have that is by appointment and he can fix slightly warped wheels. But I don't what any of the wheels to be damaged by that if that is possible.

Thanks for reading and hope you can give further advise.

RB
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      09-20-2012, 05:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerRob08 View Post
At the dealer, my rep there said the technition noticed a slight wobble on one of the rear wheels.
If the rear wheel has the wobble, I do not think it would manifest as a vibration in the steering wheel like you describe. It would be a front wheel problem.
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      09-24-2012, 02:22 AM   #15
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Hi.

Sorry to hear you're having troubles.

I just wanted to offer my experiences to give you some comfort that ARC-8 wheels can handle stress in general. I bought a staggered set (9.5, 10.5) earlier this year strictly for track use. They were Road Force balanced with 265/285 Hankook R-S3's. I have NOT been gentle with these wheels. I have driven over hundreds of berms at tracks at high speed like Buttonwillow, Auto Club Speedway, LVMS road course, and Willow Springs. I have a couple days on the skid pad too with them---hehe that was tough on the wheels for sure. I've also been off-track a half dozen times into the dirt/rocks---although not at high speeds. At Auto Club, they've been at 150mph on the oval. (I also drive them to and from the track. Tracks are 60-130 miles away from me.) The wheels have over a dozen days on the track. I've gone through a couple sets of tires on the rims. I run over -3 camber on the front wheels. And I also have AP Racing brakes on all four corners. (I switch between street and race pads before and after events.) Through all of this, my wheels are still trouble free. And I see many other guys at the track who have similar success with their ARC-8's. They're very common at the track. At the last event, I believe I counted 4 cars running Arc-8 wheels with no problems that I was aware of.

In the world of wheels, anything is possible. The stresses are so dynamic and unique out there. But Apex has a nice reputation at the track with track guys for being affordable but strong and durable. I spoke to Eddy on the phone a few times when considering his wheels. He's a very helpful technical guy, and he took the time to give me solid advice about certain things for the track.

Anyway, I hope you are able to find a decent resolution to your issues. I just wanted to offer a few comments from someone who is putting the rims through some tough conditions and having good experiences.
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      09-24-2012, 02:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
Hi.

Sorry to hear you're having troubles.

I just wanted to offer my experiences to give you some comfort that ARC-8 wheels can handle stress in general. I bought a staggered set (9.5, 10.5) earlier this year strictly for track use. They were Road Force balanced with 265/285 Hankook R-S3's. I have NOT been gentle with these wheels. I have driven over hundreds of berms at tracks at high speed like Buttonwillow, Auto Club Speedway, LVMS road course, and Willow Springs. I have a couple days on the skid pad too with them---hehe that was tough on the wheels for sure. I've also been off-track a half dozen times into the dirt/rocks---although not at high speeds. At Auto Club, they've been at 150mph on the oval. (I also drive them to and from the track. Tracks are 60-130 miles away from me.) The wheels have over a dozen days on the track. I've gone through a couple sets of tires on the rims. I run over -3 camber on the front wheels. And I also have AP Racing brakes on all four corners. (I switch between street and race pads before and after events.) Through all of this, my wheels are still trouble free. And I see many other guys at the track who have similar success with their ARC-8's. They're very common at the track. At the last event, I believe I counted 4 cars running Arc-8 wheels with no problems that I was aware of.

In the world of wheels, anything is possible. The stresses are so dynamic and unique out there. But Apex has a nice reputation at the track with track guys for being affordable but strong and durable. I spoke to Eddy on the phone a few times when considering his wheels. He's a very helpful technical guy, and he took the time to give me solid advice about certain things for the track.

Anyway, I hope you are able to find a decent resolution to your issues. I just wanted to offer a few comments from someone who is putting the rims through some tough conditions and having good experiences.


Thanks DogBone for the info. This is a bit fustrating as one can imagine. My wheels have not met the stress your doing to yours, not even a fraction of that. I'm baffeled because I agree these wheels are tough as nails and I did my research before I purchased them. But how does one explain what I've posted?

Tires have about 7,000 miles on them now since new. 6,000 estimated on these wheels as I had them transfered when they were almost brand new. Same Tech, same Dealership, same road force balancer and now they can't get the front wheels to zero out to where there would be no vibration reaching 80mph. My last set of Michelin's lasted 29,000 miles almost with stock OEM 18" wheels and never felt a vibraton or out of balance feeling.

Can a tire be slightly defective? Can it wear with such low miles to cause this? I had a 4-point alignment done at the dealer last year and it still drives straight like an arrow.

Anyway, I'll see what Apex can suggest. I'm not sure I want to purchase new front tires just yet to try to trouble shoot this problem.
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