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      09-22-2012, 05:11 AM   #1
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Fluid motor velocity stacks w/meth injection

Anyone ever heard of or actually use these before? Not much on the website about it

http://fluidmotorunion.rpmware.com/f.../i-466580.aspx
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      09-22-2012, 11:24 AM   #2
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They look beautiful but I heard they don't work very well.
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      09-22-2012, 11:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo
They look beautiful but I heard they don't work very well.
There is no reason why they shouldn't work well...... The limitation would be the software tuning of the VANOS tables to create the proper resonance tuning for the length of the stacks. The OEM plenum is just a set of velocity stacks in the box.
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      09-22-2012, 03:27 PM   #4
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      09-22-2012, 07:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skoot3r View Post
The subject of this mod has been brought up, but there are no threads about end users discussing owning and living with this. So yes my question about anyone heard of this before I already knew from my search but no one has started a thread about their experience with said mod
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      09-22-2012, 08:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
There is no reason why they shouldn't work well...... The limitation would be the software tuning of the VANOS tables to create the proper resonance tuning for the length of the stacks. The OEM plenum is just a set of velocity stacks in the box.
Just saying what I've heard. *Theoretically* a lot of things should work well that don't.

If the product requires tuning to make power, it should probably be redesigned. I have heard these lost power over stock.

Regardless, this was posted a long time ago - something might come up if you search. It is a beautiful piece, that's for sure.
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      09-22-2012, 10:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Just saying what I've heard. *Theoretically* a lot of things should work well that don't.

If the product requires tuning to make power, it should probably be redesigned. I have heard these lost power over stock.

Regardless, this was posted a long time ago - something might come up if you search. It is a beautiful piece, that's for sure.
I don't care about the product, I am not interested in it since I would never run any engine without air filters.

Whenever you change the length of a velocity stack the cam timing will need to be altered to take full advantage of it and maintain the torque curve. I would assume that you should know enough about tuning to do this?

Also, I am surprised that you would say if it requires tuning to make power (being that you are in the tuning business) it should probably be redesigned. Are you saying that cams should not be used since they require tuning?!?!
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      09-22-2012, 10:50 PM   #8
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We're talking velocity stacks here, not cams. There are companies that offer them which produce gains without tuning.

I have tuned cams on the S85 motor with great results, so yes I have full control of the intake and exhaust cams, both warm and cold (within the factory limits of the vanos system). You can only target positions of the cam within a certain range.

I'm not interested in arguing with you,
so let's agree to disagree peacefully. My tuning speaks for itself.
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      09-23-2012, 07:19 AM   #9
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sorry Mike, but that's a pretty porr statement to make that if it requires tuning than it isn't great?? Most if not all larger upgrades will require tuning to extract the greatest gains. The velocity stacks are awesome. the issue is that the rear cylinders will be absorbing the hotter temps due to the placement of the stacks and that they're open. Same issue on the e46 chassis. They sound sick and I'm sure build big power while moving but for around town they suffer from heatsoak again due to the design. The nice part about our intake is that our stacks are composite which does not retain heat and is located inside the intake plenum, which coupled with the sealed intake box keeps temps down thereby building power.
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      09-23-2012, 08:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I don't care about the product, I am not interested in it since I would never run any engine without air filters.

Whenever you change the length of a velocity stack the cam timing will need to be altered to take full advantage of it and maintain the torque curve. I would assume that you should know enough about tuning to do this?

Also, I am surprised that you would say if it requires tuning to make power (being that you are in the tuning business) it should probably be redesigned. Are you saying that cams should not be used since they require tuning?!?!
Pretty sure everyone here knows that M3's are set up from the factory to meet noise and emissions standards, not make the most hp, the tuning That Mike does is directly related to that. I think what he's saying is, if your gonna design and market something like this intake setup, then it should come with the R&D already done. I know for a fact that I do not have the time, money or resources to buy this and then have to figure it out on my own.
I can imagine loosing the entire air box and plenum would loose more power then adding this meth setup without an air box would make.
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      09-23-2012, 12:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3an View Post
sorry Mike, but that's a pretty porr statement to make that if it requires tuning than it isn't great?? Most if not all larger upgrades will require tuning to extract the greatest gains. The velocity stacks are awesome. the issue is that the rear cylinders will be absorbing the hotter temps due to the placement of the stacks and that they're open. Same issue on the e46 chassis. They sound sick and I'm sure build big power while moving but for around town they suffer from heatsoak again due to the design. The nice part about our intake is that our stacks are composite which does not retain heat and is located inside the intake plenum, which coupled with the sealed intake box keeps temps down thereby building power.
I'm sorry but it's not a poor statement. You're entitled your opinion and as I told BMRLVR I'm not interested in arguing. I'm making a general statement when I say this and it wasn't said for you to pick out specifics and prey on them.

It's a simple concept:
A company with an offering such as this should offer a *product*. A valid product offering to the end-user market is not something that would require significant research and development, expense, time, to make functional. Is it reasonable to expect an end user to spend thousands of dollars on developing software for a product that *REQUIRES* software to run properly? No. The company that designed the product should have taken the burden of this development and then maybe it would have been a successful market for them. When people elect to go with something such as Schrick cams, although the stock software mapping may not be optimal, it usually has some intended benefit over the stock camshafts without any software changes. How many people would buy cams if the car would barely run with them without an additional expense of custom tailored software? This is the same idea.

When you buy an SSD drive as an upgrade to your computer, you don't have to chase down a software engineer to write you new firmware to make it work properly in your computer. When eVolve or I send customers an end user flashing cable, we don't say here is the hardware, now you'll have to have software written to make it work. These might not be the best examples, but they illustrate the principle of what I was trying to say.
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      09-23-2012, 02:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
We're talking velocity stacks here, not cams. There are companies that offer them which produce gains without tuning.

I have tuned cams on the S85 motor with great results, so yes I have full control of the intake and exhaust cams, both warm and cold (within the factory limits of the vanos system). You can only target positions of the cam within a certain range.

I'm not interested in arguing with you,
so let's agree to disagree peacefully. My tuning speaks for itself.

Well Mike, I am not trying to fight or criticize or argue with you so no need to be defensive. I have no doubt in my mind that you have the ability to tune the VANOS system within the limits of the cam phasers and at the maximum rates of adjustment the phasers will allow.

With the above being said, a person tuning needs to have an understanding of what makes power in an engine. The stock intake system in both the S85 and S65 and every other BMW S engine ever made (with the exception of the S50B30US and S50B32US) used velocity stacks inside the air boxes. The cam duration on the intake side is what allows a velocity stack of a specific length to make power at a specific RPM. Changing the length of a velocity stack will change the RPM the torque peak of the engine occurs. Generally, shorter velocity stacks make peak torque at higher RPM and longer velocity stacks will make peak torque at lower RPM according to the effect of (depending which wave you are using in the resonance pulse that occurs). The torque curve of the later S engines (VANOS Engine are the ones I am referring to) was flattened by continuously changing the cam duration to be able to make this resonance effect occur right through the RPM range rather than at a specifically narrow RPM where they would occur without variable cam timing. So velocity stacks and cams have a very close relationship whether you realize it or not. Engine builders of the past would select their port shape, diameter, cam duration and lift and intake runner or velocity stack length in concert with one and other according to where they wanted the engine to make peak power and torque

Although I am not interested in these velocity stacks for my car and the fact that I don't like the design due to the lack of air filters, the statement that they are not the same as cams for tuning is totally false. If you have the ability to adjust the cam angles in the VANOS tables of the ECM there is no reason you could not write a tune for these stacks to make good power with them and possibly even more than the stock plenum/stack configuration. Having the knowledge of engine tuning fundamentals and applying them to make power is a different thing.

P.S. 58 degress of cam timing adjustment on the intake and 48 degrees on the exhaust at a rate of 360 degrees per second, is lots of adjustment to take advantage of almost any stack configuration over the usable rpm range of roughly 7400 RPM.
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      09-23-2012, 03:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Well Mike, I am not trying to fight or criticize or argue with you so no need to be defensive. I have no doubt in my mind that you have the ability to tune the VANOS system within the limits of the cam phasers and at the maximum rates of adjustment the phasers will allow.

With the above being said, a person tuning needs to have an understanding of what makes power in an engine. The stock intake system in both the S85 and S65 and every other BMW S engine ever made (with the exception of the S50B30US and S50B32US) used velocity stacks inside the air boxes. The cam duration on the intake side is what allows a velocity stack of a specific length to make power at a specific RPM. Changing the length of a velocity stack will change the RPM the torque peak of the engine occurs. Generally, shorter velocity stacks make peak torque at higher RPM and longer velocity stacks will make peak torque at lower RPM according to the effect of (depending which wave you are using in the resonance pulse that occurs). The torque curve of the later S engines (VANOS Engine are the ones I am referring to) was flattened by continuously changing the cam duration to be able to make this resonance effect occur right through the RPM range rather than at a specifically narrow RPM where they would occur without variable cam timing. So velocity stacks and cams have a very close relationship whether you realize it or not. Engine builders of the past would select their port shape, diameter, cam duration and lift and intake runner or velocity stack length in concert with one and other according to where they wanted the engine to make peak power and torque

Although I am not interested in these velocity stacks for my car and the fact that I don't like the design due to the lack of air filters, the statement that they are not the same as cams for tuning is totally false. If you have the ability to adjust the cam angles in the VANOS tables of the ECM there is no reason you could not write a tune for these stacks to make good power with them and possibly even more than the stock plenum/stack configuration. Having the knowledge of engine tuning fundamentals and applying them to make power is a different thing.

P.S. 58 degress of cam timing adjustment on the intake and 48 degrees on the exhaust at a rate of 360 degrees per second, is lots of adjustment to take advantage of almost any stack configuration over the usable rpm range of roughly 7400 RPM.
None of what you're saying is disputed. It's actually accurate. But again, you're going beyond the scope of my original statement. I never said that there was no relationship between the length of the stacks and the vanos profile. I said that I heard these didn't do well. Might they work wonders with tuning? Sure it's possible. Should the company that designed them have designed a calibration to suit their product? Yes.
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      09-23-2012, 03:47 PM   #14
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I do agree with you on the fact that they should have a tune to suit their product.

Lots of companies do sell products with out tuning to optimize the product they are selling, two for example are Akrapovic & Schrick and folks like yourself have wrote software to maximize the gains from their product.
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      09-23-2012, 04:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I do agree with you on the fact that they should have a tune to suit their product.

Lots of companies do sell products with out tuning to optimize the product they are selling, two for example are Akrapovic & Schrick and folks like yourself have wrote software to maximize the gains from their product.
Yes, but the Akrapovic and Schrick cams both achieve gains without software. These velocity stacks have an alleged loss without software. Big difference between needing software to use a product in the first place, and optimizing existing software to make a product perform better than it would on its own.
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      09-23-2012, 04:55 PM   #16
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I think nowadays most products have to be designed with the constraints of the software also taken into account.
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      09-23-2012, 04:58 PM   #17
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Unless you run the stacks through the hood, the amount of proper airflow you lose is pretty significant. The meth only makes up for so much...they do look cool though
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      09-24-2012, 03:34 PM   #18
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Just wanted to post an update after speaking with a few of my friends in the tuning community that have had experience with these stacks.

It turns out that it sounds like the company that makes them actually know what they are doing. When fitting them straight away without any tuning, the car lost significant power on the dyno. But after consistently redynoing the car without making any further changes to the software, they actually made power after the car was able to adapt.

Furthermore, there was a customer that wanted to order them. He explained to the company that his car had aftermarket camshafts. They told him that the product in their stock form would not work properly unless the camshafts were stock, as the length of the stack is calculated by them and timed to the valve opening events. They wound up making a specific stack for this customer with a change in length to account for the different camshafts that were fitted. This shows a clear understanding by them of the relationship between the length of the stacks and the cam profiles.

Now if only they had a way to incorporate airfilters on top of the stacks, I would probably consider them for my car.

Hope this helps clarify real world experiences with the use of these stacks.
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      09-24-2012, 03:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krozi View Post
Unless you run the stacks through the hood, the amount of proper airflow you lose is pretty significant. The meth only makes up for so much...they do look cool though
Not a lot of headroom is required to achieve full flow characteristics of the stacks due to the nice smooth bell mouth opening that funnels and directs the airflow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Just wanted to post an update after speaking with a few of my friends in the tuning community that have had experience with these stacks.

It turns out that it sounds like the company that makes them actually know what they are doing. When fitting them straight away without any tuning, the car lost significant power on the dyno. But after consistently redynoing the car without making any further changes to the software, they actually made power after the car was able to adapt.

Furthermore, there was a customer that wanted to order them. He explained to the company that his car had aftermarket camshafts. They told him that the product in their stock form would not work properly unless the camshafts were stock, as the length of the stack is calculated by them and timed to the valve opening events. They wound up making a specific stack for this customer with a change in length to account for the different camshafts that were fitted. This shows a clear understanding by them of the relationship between the length of the stacks and the cam profiles.

Now if only they had a way to incorporate airfilters on top of the stacks, I would probably consider them for my car.

Hope this helps clarify real world experiences with the use of these stacks.
FMU are not dummies....... They have been in the VW/Audi scene for many years now and although I am not a fan of how they like to slam every car they turn out, their past projects speak for themselves. It takes considerable R&D to engineer and produce a piece like this.

Your talk of camshafts sounds like a person who had replied to this post in a few replies above
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      09-24-2012, 04:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
When fitting them straight away without any tuning, the car lost significant power on the dyno. But after consistently redynoing the car without making any further changes to the software, they actually made power after the car was able to adapt.
That's great info! I would imagine that tuning is still optimal. Everytime you reset adaptations or get a software update, you'll need to wait for the adaptations to adapt again.
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      09-24-2012, 04:08 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Not a lot of headroom is required to achieve full flow characteristics of the stacks due to the nice smooth bell mouth opening that funnels and directs the airflow.



FMU are not dummies....... They have been in the VW/Audi scene for many years now and although I am not a fan of how they like to slam every car they turn out, their past projects speak for themselves. It takes considerable R&D to engineer and produce a piece like this.

Your talk of camshafts sounds like a person who had replied to this post in a few replies above
I don't think there was ever a question of velocity stack length and relation to the camshafts.

Cheers
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      09-24-2012, 04:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
That's great info! I would imagine that tuning is still optimal. Everytime you reset adaptations or get a software update, you'll need to wait for the adaptations to adapt again.
True, for something like this tuning would certainly bring out the horses that are stuck at the gate. It is amazing, however, how smart the ECU is to be able to adapt to changing conditions.
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