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      09-09-2012, 06:23 PM   #67
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      09-09-2012, 08:27 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
The M3 has a better chassis and it does not have a solid rear axle.
Agreed. In fact, overall the M3 beats up the Boss in my opinion. The M3 is clearly a better overall car, and clearly better on the street.

Not so much on track, though.

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Track cars do not have solid rear axles...
Uh, you mean cars designed to compete on road courses, right? If so (and I assume so), I agree.

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Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
Take a look at Ford's standings in the Grand Am series or watch a race. The solid rear axle is limiting it's capabilities. Even the Camaros are beating out the Ford's.
We're talking stock, smog legal street cars here, right? Race cars are something else.

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I'd rather make an M3 a track car than a Mustang.
Not me. You can go faster on way fewer dollars in the Mustang.

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Solid rear axle is for drag racing only. Only an insane person would argue in favor of a solid axle.
I don't know anybody who's advocating for a solid axle on a road course. "Insane", though? You might want to get a grip.

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Ford is currently in 4th in GS and 5th is ST. BMW is 2 and 1.
Perhaps you have me confused with someone who actually gives a damn about how race cars are doing. We're talking stock Boss 302 vs stock M3.

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As for my personal track experience? I have yet to be passed by a Boss.
You want anecdotal? My son and a couple of newly-found track buddies who run stock Boss 302s down in Texas never bother talking about M3s. They just drive around them while winning and losing with Porsches.

However, your anecdote and mine are worth precisely nothing. Check fastestlaps.com, type in M3 vs Boss 302, and see how these cars compete on various tracks.

In my opinion, the M3 is the way better car, but the facts say the Boss is quicker on drag strip and road course. Not by a lot, though - which speaks volumes about how great an overall compromise the bimmer is, again in my opinion.

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      09-09-2012, 10:31 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Agreed. In fact, overall the M3 beats up the Boss in my opinion. The M3 is clearly a better overall car, and clearly better on the street.

Not so much on track, though.


http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b..._302_2013.html

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b..._boss_302.html

http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...ss_302_ls.html
[/i]







Uh, you mean cars designed to compete on road courses, right? If so (and I assume so), I agree.



We're talking stock, smog legal street cars here, right? Race cars are something else.

Not by alot in GS and ST. If you were into racing you'd know that.

http://www.capaldiracing.com/motorsport/continental/continental.html




Not me. You can go faster on way fewer dollars in the Mustang.


Started in an SN95 when I was a teenager. Beating my lap times in a fairly stock E46 M3 is pretty depressing. I had over 10k into that car, counting the 6k I paid for it.




I don't know anybody who's advocating for a solid axle on a road course. "Insane", though? You might want to get a grip.

I said anyone who would argue otherwise is insane. Are you insane? As for grip my I have lot's of that with my IRS. I also have good tires, so you don't need to worry about that.



Perhaps you have me confused with someone who actually gives a damn about how race cars are doing. We're talking stock Boss 302 vs stock M3.

Yes we established you don't know anything about racing. Otherwise you'd know that GS is damn near showroom racing. It's a proving ground for factory cars and the solid rear axle is why the M3 and Camaro beat it.


You want anecdotal? My son and a couple of newly-found track buddies who run stock Boss 302s down in Texas never bother talking about M3s. They just drive around them while winning and losing with Porsches.

Cool story. Tell him to get an M3 and stop fighting the laws of physics.

However, your anecdote and mine are worth precisely nothing. Check fastestlaps.com, type in M3 vs Boss 302, and see how these cars compete on various tracks.

I did see above.


In my opinion, the M3 is the way better car, but the facts say the Boss is quicker on drag strip and road course. Not by a lot, though - which speaks volumes about how great an overall compromise the bimmer is, again in my opinion.

Show me a back to back comparison. Same driver, same day. This thread has one such and the M3 won.

Bruce


In blue.

Last edited by jtvr4; 09-09-2012 at 10:53 PM.
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      09-09-2012, 11:28 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by jtvr4 View Post
In blue.
Obviously can't quote you because of your weird posting style (this time), but listen, just stop being slippery, go back to fastest laps, put in M3 vs Boss 302 and get back the five track times listed, will you?
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      09-10-2012, 02:34 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Obviously can't quote you because of your weird posting style (this time), but listen, just stop being slippery, go back to fastest laps, put in M3 vs Boss 302 and get back the five track times listed, will you?


Sorry I'm on a laptop and felt like being lazy. I did the fastest laps comparo but the lap times are to few on the Boss to make any type of educated guess. Which is why I posted three different links. Did you see the scores?

If you can find me back to back lap times, I'd read it. The only one I can find have been posted and the Boss lost.

Different days with different drivers mean nothing to me or anyone who is into lap times, but whatever floats your boat. In the end the Boss has a solid rear axle. I will say Ford has done as good as they could with it, but they can only do so much.

Rumor has it the next gen will be IRS. Maybe than they can compete. As for now? No, the chassis is to far limited and it clearly shows otherwise it's standings would be different and certain drivers wouldn't be bitching.

On a side note, I get to drive a Boss non LS next month at Hallett and I'm 99% it's better than the SN95.
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      09-10-2012, 12:06 PM   #72
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Quote:
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Sorry I'm on a laptop and felt like being lazy. I did the fastest laps comparo but the lap times are to few on the Boss to make any type of educated guess...
Let me get this straight: You see where the Boss is quicker on five tracks, and claim it's meaningless. You don't even think there's a hint of a shadow of a clue there that the Boss might be the quicker car?

The Car & Driver times are also meaningless?

How about Motor Trend?

For whatever reason (I assume traction loss from a bumpy venue), the Boss 302 got its ass solidly kicked by the three German cars in that EVO test, but if you think the other seven times are without meaning, then we're simply done here.
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      09-10-2012, 05:55 PM   #73
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I'm with Bruce on this one.
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      09-10-2012, 06:29 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Let me get this straight: You see where the Boss is quicker on five tracks, and claim it's meaningless. You don't even think there's a hint of a shadow of a clue there that the Boss might be the quicker car?

The Car & Driver times are also meaningless?

How about Motor Trend?

For whatever reason (I assume traction loss from a bumpy venue), the Boss 302 got its ass solidly kicked by the three German cars in that EVO test, but if you think the other seven times are without meaning, then we're simply done here.


I listed the times on the same tracks in my links... 2007 M3, M3 comp, 2011 Boss, and LS Boss. Same tracks.



Also my points are going over your head but im not shocked. We were done the moment you said you said you know nothing about racing. If the Boss was a better car it wouldn't be getting it's butt kicked in GS as those cars use the same equipment. The solid rear axle limits the capabilities of the car. Yes the M3 chassis is better for racing. End of story.

Non back to back lap times are pretty pointless but I can tell the only racing you do is magazine times. Different days, different drivers and different track conditions are going to yield different results.

Bedford Autodrome West Circuit (post 06/2008) M3 Base 1:26.20 Boss 1:29.00 Those times mean nothing but I can too play your stupid game. After looking at Bedford I'm not shocked the Boss had a hard time for reasons I doubt you'll understand but I'm sure your racing google skills will figure it out.
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      09-10-2012, 08:34 PM   #75
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Quote:
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I listed the times on the same tracks in my links... 2007 M3, M3 comp, 2011 Boss, and LS Boss. Same tracks.



Also my points are going over your head but im not shocked. We were done the moment you said you said you know nothing about racing. If the Boss was a better car it wouldn't be getting it's butt kicked in GS as those cars use the same equipment. The solid rear axle limits the capabilities of the car. Yes the M3 chassis is better for racing. End of story.

Non back to back lap times are pretty pointless but I can tell the only racing you do is magazine times. Different days, different drivers and different track conditions are going to yield different results.

Bedford Autodrome West Circuit (post 06/2008) M3 Base 1:26.20 Boss 1:29.00 Those times mean nothing but I can too play your stupid game. After looking at Bedford I'm not shocked the Boss had a hard time for reasons I doubt you'll understand but I'm sure your racing google skills will figure it out.
Serious question. Do you race? I admit I never have.

And I'll bite. Why did the Boss have a hard time at Bedford.

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      09-10-2012, 08:53 PM   #76
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Quote:
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I listed the times on the same tracks in my links... 2007 M3, M3 comp, 2011 Boss, and LS Boss. Same tracks...
...and here are the times from fastestlaps that you "forgot" to point out.

Lap Times (5)

Track M3 Mustang Boss 302 LS
Hockenheim Short 1:14.00 1:13.20
Laguna Seca 1:42.96 1:39.50
Virginia International Raceway 3:05.40 3:02.80
Willow Springs - Streets of Willow 1:27.67 1:26.10
Sachsenring 1:40.67 1:39.85
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      09-19-2012, 08:41 PM   #77
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Most bmw owners think they drive the best cars on planet earth. Not many bmw owners are able to admit when a car is better than theirs, its pretty sad lol.
My family owns and has owned many bmws(much more than most people on here) and I can say the boss 302 is better than the m3 from a performance standpoint, luxury wise the m3 wins.
But were talking about performance here, and the boss comes out on top in this category.
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      09-20-2012, 07:58 AM   #78
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Its a nice car and performs and responds very well to mods but the interiors not all that. M3 all day !
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      09-20-2012, 11:08 AM   #79
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Its a nice car and performs and responds very well to mods but the interiors not all that. M3 all day !
To repeat myself, these cars are simply not competitors. The only reason the issue comes up is because Ford stated their performance goal was to beat the M3 around Laguna Seca, which of course they had already done, or they wouldn't have made the statement.

This is exactly like Nissan stating their performance goal for the GT-R was to beat the then current Porsche Turbo around the 'Ring. Job done before they mentioned that, of course.

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      09-20-2012, 03:33 PM   #80
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To repeat myself, these cars are simply not competitors. The only reason the issue comes up is because Ford stated their performance goal was to beat the M3 around Laguna Seca, which of course they had already done, or they wouldn't have made the statement.

This is exactly like Nissan stating their performance goal for the GT-R was to beat the then current Porsche Turbo around the 'Ring. Job done before they mentioned that, of course.

Bruce
Hey Bruce, I was just saying my experience with Ford. Didnt sound like i was advising
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      09-20-2012, 04:05 PM   #81
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I will say this, have seen 3 BOSS' wreck this track season and not a single M3 (which is a bit misleading cause I'm usually the 1 M3) not sure what, if anything that means, but still waiting for a "wow that guys fast" quote coming from that or any car outside the usual (GT-R, Viper, Vette, GT3) Was just watching "gone in 60 seconds" and realize just about every car on there was slower than either of the cars we're talking about, so let's get over it and go for a drive
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      09-20-2012, 04:41 PM   #82
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^ You're probably one of my favorite bimmerpost members. Just straight STFU and enjoy your great car. I like it haha.
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      09-20-2012, 05:07 PM   #83
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I think Ford made a pretty good car and I'd consider buying this generation Mustang. But I'm just tired of American companies claiming they made a BMW beater. For that reason, they'll always be behind the power curve.

Don't ever think american cars are that much cheaper to maintain than German cars. You'll find parts prices are not that much cheaper for american cars. The biggest difference is likely the dealership labor rates.

I've seen a couple of Boss 302s with the Laguna Seca package at the track. Two with blown engines. Not sure if it was a one time issue or systemic issue but I have NEVER seen an M3 at the track with a blown engine. With that said, who gives a shit about ego massaging Nurburgring or Laguna Seca lap times. Its all about the drive.
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      09-20-2012, 05:28 PM   #84
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Ive owned both, both AMAZING cars. The BOSS feels german on the track, if you couldnt see the interior you couldnt tell. Boss 45k, M3 70k. If you want a nice interior dont buy the Boss, cause that not what you are paying for, but you get amazing performance for the money! its all plastics inside but it has great seats, an awesome engine that sounds glorious, a great tranny and handles beautifully!

on a side note why do some of you spend so much time arguing such insignificant things, who care. ENJOY YOUR CARS! and be happy that you can afford these cars wether it be a BOSS or an M3.
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      09-21-2012, 09:08 AM   #85
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Drove one the other day. What a POS.
The engine is the only strength of the car, everything else is junk ( chassis, interior, brakes, tranny).
I can't believe they are asking $45k for this car.
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      09-21-2012, 12:00 PM   #86
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      09-22-2012, 09:43 PM   #87
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Boss parts are cheaper, and I have yet to see a boss motor blow on the forums? You can order a boss crate motor from the dealer for 10k and receive a significant amount back with core exchange for that price you can goto the dealer and get your m3's throttle actuators fixed Did I mention the stock block/internals are capable of holding 1k whp with just a blower? And those aren't just dyno queens. To be honest, the perfect m3 would come with a boss 302 motor. Oh yeah the stock valve train is rated for 9k rpm redline and its the exact motor used in the grand am series cars. All BMW can say is there motors are derived from racing, and the boss has an actual race car motor

I'm all for the m3 but I hate the misinformation.
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      09-22-2012, 09:55 PM   #88
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Quote:
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Boss parts are cheaper, and I have yet to see a boss motor blow on the forums? You can order a boss crate motor from the dealer for 10k and receive a significant amount back with core exchange for that price you can goto the dealer and get your m3's throttle actuators fixed Did I mention the stock block/internals are capable of holding 1k whp with just a blower? And those aren't just dyno queens. To be honest, the perfect m3 would come with a boss 302 motor. Oh yeah the stock valve train is rated for 9k rpm redline and its the exact motor used in the grand am series cars. All BMW can say is there motors are derived from racing, and the boss has an actual race car motor

I'm all for the m3 but I hate the misinformation.
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