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      09-20-2012, 09:43 PM   #67
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Yes the manifold popped off before the event started - it's because silly me lubricated the boots so that the manifold slips on easily. Well the silicone grease also helps it slip off DOH! Lubrication was not called for in the install instructions - it's just stupid silliness. But it sucked to have it pop off just before the start of the event...

Oh yes I will be back next year. I'm not sure what car I'll be driving though. I'm targeting those GTR's and the podium... there's lots of HP and skill running at the top. It's going to be a challenge.

By the way - nobody told me to come reply here... I just stumbled upon this thread. All I am is a driver/engineer/hobbyist and thought I'd chime in with facts that I know to be fair

If you want, set me up with a blower for 2013 and then I'll really be qualified to speak comparison points between two kits - not many people (including AA and ESS) can probably say that. The brutal truth is 99% of people are "armchair commandos" giving their expert opinion on things when the only people who are truly qualified are those who have experienced first hand both. I'll be glad to remove the ESS kit and run yours and provide truly objective results (quantitative not qualitative observations). I am a member of atlanta motorsports park and I have close to 500 laps there all recorded with traqmate. It will be easy to do a back to back comparison, then run one lap next year

Last edited by quads; 09-20-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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      09-20-2012, 09:58 PM   #68
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So, back to point. Does having your air to water IC over your engine oil cooler equate to higher oil temps? If so does adding a larger oil cooler suggest lack of testing on the kit build in all conditions? Is there a slightly different location for the IC to begin with? Not that the current location is wrong, but trial and error with feedback should lead to improvements not angles around a issue. I'm just asking as I heard of heating concerns after multiple drag runs.
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      09-20-2012, 09:59 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sevens.com
Yes the manifold popped off before the event started - it's because silly me lubricated the boots so that the manifold slips on easily. Well the silicone grease also helps it slip off DOH! Lubrication was not called for in the install instructions - it's just stupid silliness. But it sucked to have it pop off just before the start of the event...

Oh yes I will be back next year. I'm not sure what car I'll be driving though. I'm targeting those GTR's and the podium... there's lots of HP and skill running at the top. It's going to be a challenge.

By the way - nobody told me to come reply here... I just stumbled upon this thread. All I am is a driver/engineer/hobbyist and thought I'd chime in with facts that I know to be fair

If you want, set me up with a blower for 2013 and then I'll really be qualified to speak comparison points between two kits - not many people (including AA and ESS) can probably say that. The brutal truth is 99% of people are "armchair commandos" giving their expert opinion on things when the only people who are truly qualified are those who have experienced first hand both. I'll be glad to remove the ESS kit and run yours and provide truly objective results (quantitative not qualitative observations). I am a member of atlanta motorsports park and I have close to 500 laps there all recorded with traqmate. It will be easy to do a back to back comparison, then run one lap next year
Nice stuff. Very professional.
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      09-20-2012, 10:17 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I'm interested in hearing the strong points of each kit.



On a side note, and relevant to the actual topic in discussion - I have heard from two people in hot climates that experienced issues with the ESS kit on the track. I think it was an issue with the rear seal on both cars. They had to fill up the oil consistently after it went south. I guess that's more blower specific considering it's a Vortech unit.

But it's really not surprising to me - Stock M3's will run 300F oil temperatures on the track on a hot day. When I went to the track awhile ago with an E92 and E93 (+ my E90), all three of us were pushing 300F oil temperatures. Considering a supercharger affords 100+ more HP, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the car had overheating issues, considering stock cars have this problem to begin with.

I'm interested in knowing what the IATs would be on the track after hard driving. I would suspect that with the supercharger fitted they would be quite a bit higher than the ambient air, as opposed to an NA car. An upgraded radiator and oil cooler might be the answer to a consistently trackable beast - although I think that even with the M24 that oil temperatures on a supercharged car would still be over 280 during a hard beating. I don't like it when my oil temperature exceeds 240, but it's unreasonable to expect it would stay below that in extreme conditions.

Thanks Mike for getting back on track. This topic is one for the ages. Having experience with my blown s52 e36 M3 on track (high temps, belt slip), I think it's a bit hopeless. Adding a larger radiator and oil cooler I think would only delay the overheating, not solve it. High ambient temps+ boost+ 25min track session= death to motor.

I have been trying to get feedback like the OP has kindly shared with us. The 7-8 psi "low boost" kits these companies are offering, making 500+whp SOUND great. But major heat soak and limp mode party's seem not far away if you use your car at the track.

Please keep this thread updated OP!

On a side note the PROcede with PWM Meth makes just shy of 400whp, and my buddy's car at thunder hill on a 100 degree day said his temps were barely higher then street driving and solid all day long. He was no where near 300 degrees.
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      09-20-2012, 10:27 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96LTWM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
No, but car A did beat car B that's where it ends.

We both make some amazing kits with differnt strong points.
Let's leave it there.
I'm interested in hearing the strong points of each kit.



On a side note, and relevant to the actual topic in discussion - I have heard from two people in hot climates that experienced issues with the ESS kit on the track. I think it was an issue with the rear seal on both cars. They had to fill up the oil consistently after it went south. I guess that's more blower specific considering it's a Vortech unit.

But it's really not surprising to me - Stock M3's will run 300F oil temperatures on the track on a hot day. When I went to the track awhile ago with an E92 and E93 (+ my E90), all three of us were pushing 300F oil temperatures. Considering a supercharger affords 100+ more HP, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the car had overheating issues, considering stock cars have this problem to begin with.

I'm interested in knowing what the IATs would be on the track after hard driving. I would suspect that with the supercharger fitted they would be quite a bit higher than the ambient air, as opposed to an NA car. An upgraded radiator and oil cooler might be the answer to a consistently trackable beast - although I think that even with the M24 that oil temperatures on a supercharged car would still be over 280 during a hard beating. I don't like it when my oil temperature exceeds 240, but it's unreasonable to expect it would stay below that in extreme conditions.
Thanks Mike for getting back on track. This topic is one for the ages. Having experience with my blown s52 e36 M3 on track (high temps, belt slip), I think it's a bit hopeless. Adding a larger radiator and oil cooler I think would only delay the overheating, not solve it. High ambient temps+ boost+ 25min track session= death to motor.

I have been trying to get feedback like the OP has kindly shared with us. The 7-8 psi "low boost" kits these companies are offering, making 500+whp SOUND great. But major heat soak and limp mode party's seem not far away if you use your car at the track.

Please keep this thread updated OP!

On a side note the PROcede with PWM Meth makes just shy of 400whp, and my buddy's car at thunder hill on a 100 degree day said his temps were barely higher then street driving and solid all day long. He was no where near 300 degrees.



Yep, trying to delay death. Reality.
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      09-20-2012, 10:46 PM   #72
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Previous software versions following the following conventions:

145C --> Limit before reduction of redline (for oil - 8,300 RPM)
146C --> 7800 RPM Limit (500 RPM reduction)
147C --> 7600 RPM Limit
148C --> 7400 RPM Limit
149C --> 7200 RPM Limit
150C --> 7000 RPM Limit

The Latest 240E software raises each one by 5C. Absolutely ridiculous if you ask me. In my performance software for NA cars, I reduce these temperatures slightly from the stock values. I think driving the car with 300 degree oil temperatures to 7000 and being allowed to do so from the factory is insanity.

Now for coolant temperatures we have RPM reduction as well:
115C --> Limit before coolant based RPM reduction occurs
116C --> 7800 RPM (500 RPM reduction)
117C --> 7600 RPM Limit
118C --> 7400 RPM Limit
119C --> 7200 RPM Limit
120C --> 7000 RPM Limit

I also reduce the temperatures in the code here as well. My software limits to 7K at 115C.

Finally there are reductions for gear oil temperature.
146C --> Threshold at which car will start pulling redline back
148C --> 8000RPM
150C --> 7500RPM
152C --> 7000RPM
154C --> 6500RPM
156C --> 6000RPM
158C --> 5500RPM
160C --> 5000RPM

I think all companies offering supercharger systems need to make these reductions more aggressive in their software calibrations. I believe in safety first. It's just not worth the risk and hassle. Better safe than sorry.

All numbers above are taken directly from the hex data in the code for the respective limits.
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      09-20-2012, 10:47 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sevens.com View Post
I am the owner and driver of the 2011 e90 with the ESS-vt2-625 that competed in 2012 one lap. I don't have a fight in here - that is not my intention. I am here just to mention some facts that I know is 100% true and then you guys can hash it out and everyone else can make their own conclusions.

1. Yes in 2011 my e90 was completely stock, so the AA equipped car beating us really wasn't a big deal. SC vs NA - SC wins.

2. OLOA (one lap of america) 2012 was different because I had just installed the ESS kit to be more competitive. And yes, I did run out of gas on the LAST track event on the FINAL lap TWO TURNS before the finish line... how embarassing... Road america was a 4 mile track - we thought we'd make it with half a tank of gas. wrong... so we paid the price.

3. Just before we ran out of gas, we had a clear win in view... we were headed for 8th overall and 1st in class (lots of points ahead of the AA car). Then the unthinkable happened - no gas.... After that we ended up 12th overall (which is still not bad) and 2nd in class. (The AA car took first)

4. I know in 2011 the AA car was running meth... I do not know if they were running meth in 2012, but I'd assume so. My car was just a simple vt2-625... We didn't want to complicate things or have to keep pouring meth into a tank in the truck.

5. One more thing to note..... there was a 1/4 event at brainerd... this is where the SC cars really shine.... here are the results

Our car did a 12.153 and was 7th overall (among lots of highly modified GTR's, vettes, and p cars)
The AA car did a 12.912 (20th overall)

(http://www.onelapofamerica.com/event...=52&eventId=31)

Any questions, I'm here to help... but I'm only qualified to answer questions about my car. If I had experienced the AA kit as well then I'd be qualified to answer both and compare etc... just questions about my car

Thanks for clearing up some of the unknown missing facts on the event in question. Like I said before it is always best to know all of the facts. It sounds like I was correct in assuming your running out of gas had an impact on your standing results that were being discussed.

Getting back to the topic we have seen our SC cars perform very much like stock NA or modded NA cars do at the track when it comes to cooling. Just like stock the SC software will limit power when the vehicle temps reach a point. This is done simply to keep the car safe. A couple NA race cars that we tuned ran very hot this summer at the track when driven hard. These cars had very good results with upgraded cooling components oil, dct etc.. we are currently testing some parts we developed that we are hoping can help with improving the cooling on NA and FI cars at the track. With all of the variables that can affect cooling and the fact that some cars never have issues and other do when pushed hard at the track it is good to collect as much data as we can from customers.
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      09-20-2012, 11:05 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96LTWM3 View Post
On a side note the PROcede with PWM Meth makes just shy of 400whp, and my buddy's car at thunder hill on a 100 degree day said his temps were barely higher then street driving and solid all day long. He was no where near 300 degrees.
I have the same experience. I have the Procede with the PWM meth/water system on my 335i and tracked on a 95deg day at the highest boost levels possible on the stock turbos (19psi peak/taper to 16psi redline) with oil temps rock solid at 245, which is where it is under daily driving conditions.

I will be using a progressive meth system on my ESS VT2 600 M3 at the track in order to keep IAT's in check, which will also help to keep oil temps in check. I'm actually going to use the Procede at my meth controller. Ordinarily that would be pretty expensive but it prevents hacking up my car for the otherwise necessary meth/water hardware.
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      09-20-2012, 11:06 PM   #75
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Good stuff.
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      09-20-2012, 11:11 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS
Thanks Getting back to the topic we have seen our SC cars perform very much like stock NA or modded NA cars do at the track when it comes to cooling. A couple NA race cars that we tuned ran very hot this summer at the track when driven hard. These cars had very good results with upgraded cooling components oil, dct etc.. we are currently testing some parts we developed that we are hoping can help with improving the cooling on NA and FI cars at the track. With all of the variables that can effect cooling it is good to collect as much data as we can from customers.



Roman, all this is music to my ears. ESS has been the kit I have been leaning towards. You guys are dedicated. I would feel a lot more comfortable with a company that recommends "x" amount of cooling upgrades with their kits. Yes it's more expensive but it just makes sense, for the true "abuser".
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      09-20-2012, 11:22 PM   #77
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Yes, recommended in the beginning.
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      09-21-2012, 12:22 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Yes, recommended in the beginning.
Low engine and intake temps are something we took very serious when designing our supercharger system.

Just bolt up our kit and go! No extra parts are necessary if you plan on going to the track. In fact we have a bunch of cars in Miami to Dubai that are dedicated weekend track warriors. They do just fine in the extreme summer temperatures without any issues.

Our large 3 inch piping to a front mounted Air to Air intercooler along with our Aem controlled methanol system guarantee the coolest air intake temperatures possible. Another great feature of our kit is the dedicated supercharger oil cooler.

A true kit without compromises.

Last edited by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke; 09-21-2012 at 12:33 AM.
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      09-21-2012, 12:26 AM   #79
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[quote=Roman@ESS;12715020]Andrew I do not need to bully anyone, our products do the bullying

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      09-21-2012, 05:18 AM   #80
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I use AA's old water/alcohol injection system. So I go to the store, $2 bottle of iso alcohol and $1 gal of distilled water. Good to go!

The bonus is if I get a cut, I can use my w/a system to clean my wound!
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      09-21-2012, 07:21 AM   #81
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Start a thread showing/explaining the strong points of AA's kit, nothing wrong with that but for now
Lets stay and keep discussions on topic




Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Low engine and intake temps are something we took very serious when designing our supercharger system.

Just bolt up our kit and go! No extra parts are necessary if you plan on going to the track. In fact we have a bunch of cars in Miami to Dubai that are dedicated weekend track warriors. They do just fine in the extreme summer temperatures without any issues.

Our large 3 inch piping to a front mounted Air to Air intercooler along with our Aem controlled methanol system guarantee the coolest air intake temperatures possible. Another great feature of our kit is the dedicated supercharger oil cooler.

A true kit without compromises.
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      09-21-2012, 07:56 AM   #82
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Hey Andrew,

I heard a rumor about one of your kits tapped out in Cali ! is it true ?
Too much for the SC oil cooling and this and that.........................


Good Luck !
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      09-21-2012, 08:01 AM   #83
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Tapped out meaning ?
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      09-21-2012, 08:04 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Andrew

You really should do your homework before you post on the internet. As an AA employee it makes you and the company look bad. David installed his supercharger kit early 2012 and has only run One lap with our kit installed once so your 2011 results you are bragging about you beat him when he was NA, congrats. You forgot to mention this year while running our kit he ran out of gas during the event which dropped his finishing place so if you consider that a win also I feel your standards might be a bit low.
+1

Andrew you made a fool of yourself going back and forth with me in that other thread and you struck again in this one - you argue with no proof to support your points and when proven wrong start talking apples and oranges to change the topic. Not only makes you look like you have absolutely no idea what you are talkikng about, but it also taints the image of the company your representing.

Bragging about winning a race against a car that was beating you and simply had to stop for gas is nothing short of pathetic. It's almost as bad as bragging about how you have the superior kit because your stage 2 beat an ESS stage 1, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
I feel your standards might be a bit low.
I've come to the same conclusion when he told me that its respectable that their high level kits are trapping 126 (meanwhile other comparable kits are trapping at least 5mph higher), and he's posting dynos of stage 4 low compression built motor S65's dynoing less than stock block blown M3's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Ess gang strikes again. You guys are way to serious !
You genuinely sound like the guy who picks a fight then runs away when shit happens - you knew with your original post you were stirring the pot in this thread so why pretend it wasnt obvious that this would happen?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Do you find it odd that all of the other companies that make superchargers for the m3 get along ?

Anyway I should of known better and I apologize.
Actually I dont, its like that with anything in this world - everyone hates the guy on top. Thank you for your apology though, I'm sure this will happen again in a few days.

Last edited by erm324; 09-21-2012 at 08:25 AM.
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      09-21-2012, 08:11 AM   #85
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Tapped out meaning ?
Meaning this
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      09-21-2012, 08:55 AM   #86
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1) Ensure your A2W pump is working properly.
2)Ensure your rad fan is working properly (important on slow sections of the track).
3)Verify that the engine cooling system thermostat is opening fully (may require disassembly to verify)

If all of the above is working as designed, maybe consider upgrading Engine Radiator and Oil Cooler, so it is better suited for your climate. Contrary to what some of the others have said, a larger radiator and oil cooler will not just prolong the inevitable....... Given adequate cooling area and airflow you can cool any size engine of any output. The key is cooling area (size of rad in square inches and number of rows). There is a reason why the large diesel engines I work on making 3000+ Hp and 10,000+ Lb/Ft use rads that are 10 ft high x 8 ft wide with 4 rows of tubes.

P.S. most large Diesel engines use liquid to air charge cooling due to more consistent IAT's and being able to do more cooling from less overall cooler area due to the added heat transfer abilities of liquid to air cooling systems. That is the reason why BMW is going this route now...... More cooling with less space and consistent charge temperatures to better control emissions and fuel economy.
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      09-21-2012, 09:06 AM   #87
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One thing I forgot...... Ensure the coolant level is full in both the aftercooler and engine circuit. Sometimes the simplest things get forgotten about!
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      09-21-2012, 09:08 AM   #88
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I simply replied to M33's sarcastic comment with my own. I was not looking to start a war here, I know too well how you guys react to anything anti Ess.

I can post tons of threads where a group of 4-5 of you are also attacking not just AA but anyone who questions Ess. You know who you are

I know you select few love the drama which is why you feel the need to immerse yourself in it every time and come to the rescue with the same comments over and over. WHY?

You love your kit that is great I get it, but their are other companies that make a great product as well and you need to come to terms with it. You can't just go around go around with this superiority complex that you are the best and everyone sucks.

Now relax and post a silly smiley next time instead of jumping down mine or anyone else's throat for posting a semi relevant comment.


Quote:
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Air to air inter cooler, water/meth injection. Problem solved.
This is Not Needed..

Quote:
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^Great contribution to the thread, its clear why you would say that based off your sig.


OP, like roman said check the system/codes first to see if its all running right. I know my buddy sal@autocouture and many others track the living shit out of their blown M3's without a single hiccup. You could also try an upgraded oil cooler

To the Op im sorry for going off topic.

Last edited by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke; 09-21-2012 at 09:27 AM.
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