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      09-16-2012, 06:33 PM   #1
jml
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For the love of pete, please stop using HPS and HP+ pads at the track!

A student and I were nearly in a shunt this weekend at TWS because someone told him hawk HPS pads were good dual-use street-track pads. He was put in an advanced run group, so the speeds were moderate. I commented to him that I was pretty sure the pads were not going to hold up. Sure enough, within 3 laps, his brakes TOTALLY failed WITH ZERO notice right behind a C2S going into T4 Clockwise...I don't know how he missed hitting it...mad ninja skillz I guess. There were fine braking into T6....but nothing in T4.

I see vendors in this forum recommending these products as viable on a race course. They are not, and someone is going to get hurt. PCA national is going to be banning these after this weekend's incident. A SURPRISING number of people show up to the track with after market street pads in moderate run groups. I don't understand it - brake pads are a safety device.

Rant over....
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      09-16-2012, 06:51 PM   #2
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Who is pete?
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      09-16-2012, 06:58 PM   #3
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Isnt it "For the love of Mike"?
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      09-16-2012, 06:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
A student and I were nearly in a shunt this weekend at TWS because someone told him hawk HPS pads were good dual-use street-track pads. He was put in an advanced run group, so the speeds were moderate. I commented to him that I was pretty sure the pads were not going to hold up. Sure enough, within 3 laps, his brakes TOTALLY failed WITH ZERO notice right behind a C2S going into T4 Clockwise...I don't know how he missed hitting it...mad ninja skillz I guess. There were fine braking into T6....but nothing in T4.
He must have had an awesome instructor

What car was he in?
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      09-16-2012, 07:04 PM   #5
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I always thought it was common knowledge that HPS's were street-only pads and will fail without warning on the track
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      09-16-2012, 08:40 PM   #6
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I used HP+'s on my 08 M3 with no great dramas,just tons of annoying noise on the street!I was conscious of the limitations of these pads and only ran as hard as the brakes were capable of handling compared to how hard I run with a proper BBK and pad setup.
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      09-16-2012, 09:38 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by chriszeh View Post
Who is pete?
Sometimes george
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      09-16-2012, 09:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLDZHAO View Post
He must have had an awesome instructor

What car was he in?
He's on here, I think he'll pipe up with a video of the incident.

I'm pretty sure I didn't scream, but I can't be sure.
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      09-16-2012, 09:51 PM   #9
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I have used HP+ extensively without any issues. You simply need to be aware of their limitations. They work reasonably well for the price.

I have to say that every set I have installed require some sort of "break in". The first session out, they seem OK and then all of a sudden they overheat and it is as if you have no more brakes (with the big brake smell filling the cabin). But once you have done this "cooking", they become perfectly fine without repeating this drama until they are worn down. Had this experience with every set I have installed (with an appropriate bedding done too before hand).

I have never used HPS, so I cannot comment on these.
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      09-16-2012, 09:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I have used HP+ extensively without any issues. You simply need to be aware of their limitations. They work reasonably well for the price.

I have to say that every set I have installed require some sort of "break in". The first session out, they seem OK and then all of a sudden they overheat and it is as if you have no more brakes (with the big brake smell filling the cabin). But once you have done this "cooking", they become perfectly fine without repeating this drama until they are worn down. Had this experience with every set I have installed (with an appropriate bedding done too before hand).

I have never used HPS, so I cannot comment on these.
I'm sorry, but you will end a track event in tears at some point. It's just a matter of time and heat. Roll the dice....has NOTHING to do with bedding.
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      09-16-2012, 10:06 PM   #11
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Basically as soon as MOT is exceeded the pads are toast. Literally and figuratively.
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      09-16-2012, 10:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
I'm sorry, but you will end a track event in tears at some point. It's just a matter of time and heat. Roll the dice....has NOTHING to do with bedding.
I think your comments are misinformed.

First your student was running HPS and not HP+.

Second, I ran HP+ for several years without any issue, as long as you are aware of their limitations and manage them. I guess it also depends of the tracks you are running.

I have now switched to PF08 as I think that the better initial bite and feel is worth the extra money, but I would not hesitate to use HP+ again.
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      09-17-2012, 05:33 AM   #13
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HP+ and HPS are very different pads.
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      09-17-2012, 08:00 AM   #14
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Sometimes george
and often God.
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      09-17-2012, 08:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
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HP+ and HPS are very different pads.
My point exactly
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      09-17-2012, 10:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
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I'm pretty sure I didn't scream, but I can't be sure.
I've not yet faced a scenario like this as an instructor. Not looking forward to when I do... Congrats on surviving! And newbie trackers... PLEASE keep your instructors safe and use the right equipment!!
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      09-17-2012, 11:36 AM   #17
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HP+ are ok on track. They make a ton of noise on the street though. 10+ years ago, they were one of the few viable options for street/track pads.

HPS is just junk. There are a ton of options that can handle more track heat and are more street friendly.
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      09-17-2012, 11:42 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I think your comments are misinformed.

First your student was running HPS and not HP+.

Second, I ran HP+ for several years without any issue, as long as you are aware of their limitations and manage them. I guess it also depends of the tracks you are running.

I have now switched to PF08 as I think that the better initial bite and feel is worth the extra money, but I would not hesitate to use HP+ again.
Embarrassingly, the same incident happened to me WAAAAY back in the day when I was learning to drive - but with HP+ pads - which is where my comment about HPS AND HP+ came from. They have a similar characteristics at MOT. Until that point, HP+ has higher friction than an OEM pad and bite really well. In my case I was going well over 100mph when I realized there were no brakes.

My overall point is that they are not safe. While they may perform, the fact that they just give up at the worst possible moment makes them unsafe, especially for beginners.
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      09-17-2012, 02:17 PM   #19
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which car? I was there this weekend in my 944. I track my m3 occasionally, but have not taken it to TWS since I have been in the yellow run group. Are hps worse than stock pads? Now your making me think I should be running better pads, even for the occasional trip to h2r
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      09-17-2012, 06:19 PM   #20
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It used to be, when BMWs weighed "only" in the 3,200 lbs range, using pads like Hawk HP+ may be possible if you manage your braking just right. i.e. if you really learned digressive brake pressure to alleviate the heat build-up. Especially when said 3,200 lbs car makes less than 240 hp.

And roll the clock back another 5-10 years, back when BMWs weighed only 2,800 lbs range, using pads like Hawk HPS (they've been around THAT long?) on the same car that makes 180 hp on a good day would entirely be possible even if you don't bother to digressively modulate your brake pressure.

On today's BMW? Good luck unless you're rocking the latest and greatest Hawk and Performance Friction track compounds, like DTC70 and PFC-06 and later. Not on a car that weighs closer to 4,000 lbs with 420 hp to boot, especially once you've learned to actually drive it fast.

Kinetic energy is now growing at an exponential pace due to the constant growth of weight and power, while the ability to dissipate it have not. So the only choice y'all have, is to continue to escalate the capacity to operate under higher and higher MOT.
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      09-17-2012, 06:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
Embarrassingly, the same incident happened to me WAAAAY back in the day when I was learning to drive - but with HP+ pads - which is where my comment about HPS AND HP+ came from. They have a similar characteristics at MOT. Until that point, HP+ has higher friction than an OEM pad and bite really well. In my case I was going well over 100mph when I realized there were no brakes.

My overall point is that they are not safe. While they may perform, the fact that they just give up at the worst possible moment makes them unsafe, especially for beginners.
Disagree with nearly all of your comments in regards to HP+. Not to question your abilities, but a lot of people don't know how to properly brake. IE: dont drag your brakes, change before too thin, etc, etc. Speaking from experience, as well as others posted here, HP+ can be run very effectively all day without issues. Your problems sound like isolated issues that may not be the resut of the HP+ compound. Feel free to share more details (track, length of run, track temp, lap times, etc) so we better understand your problem.
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      09-17-2012, 07:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
It used to be, when BMWs weighed "only" in the 3,200 lbs range, using pads like Hawk HP+ may be possible if you manage your braking just right. i.e. if you really learned digressive brake pressure to alleviate the heat build-up. Especially when said 3,200 lbs car makes less than 240 hp.

And roll the clock back another 5-10 years, back when BMWs weighed only 2,800 lbs range, using pads like Hawk HPS (they've been around THAT long?) on the same car that makes 180 hp on a good day would entirely be possible even if you don't bother to digressively modulate your brake pressure.

On today's BMW? Good luck unless you're rocking the latest and greatest Hawk and Performance Friction track compounds, like DTC70 and PFC-06 and later. Not on a car that weighs closer to 4,000 lbs with 420 hp to boot, especially once you've learned to actually drive it fast.

Kinetic energy is now growing at an exponential pace due to the constant growth of weight and power, while the ability to dissipate it have not. So the only choice y'all have, is to continue to escalate the capacity to operate under higher and higher MOT.
Good post. I wouldn't run HPS for anything, and wouldn't run HP+ unless it was the only spare there and I had to. These cars are heavy and powerful and need major friction and temp window.
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