M3 Supercharged/modded vs 911, F80 M3, GTR....

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

No, you will not get 125 traps with just a VT1. LostMarine is trapping at 118/119 and he's on meth. My guess is that at VT1 on an otherwise stock M3 will trap 116 to 117mph...a 5-6mph pickup from stock. If you run meth and get the benefits of IAT reduction like LM is doing which will get you perhaps 120. For 125, you would need to upgrade to a VT2 kit OR do substantial upgrades including exhaust, smaller pulley, meth etc.

Don't think you are going to be anywhere near as fast as M&M.

It's just like the 335 guys thinking their cars can trap at 127mph with just a tune, intake, dps, and meth. Hotrod182 did it but his car was an anomoly.

I'm not aiming for 125 but if i had DCT and catless X-pipe that would be my goal, I'm pretty sure I've seen someone in the mid 11s and 125mph trap with those mods. As for me, I'll know soon enough what I'll trap since I'm doing the VT1 install as I'm speeking to you!

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

I'm not aiming for 125 but if i had DCT and catless X-pipe that would be my goal, I'm pretty sure I've seen someone in the mid 11s and 125mph trap with those mods. As for me, I'll know soon enough what I'll trap since I'm doing the VT1 install as I'm speeking to you!

Congratulations that's awesome! I'm sure you are going to love it.

I just don't want you to expect your car is going to be as fast as M&M's. His car is a huge outlier. He has done a lot of custom work to get to that level. He may be at 650 HP. You will be at or under 550. Don't think you can trap anywhere near where he traps. If I were you, I would expect 116-117. That is very good.

Again, with a 535 kit, + DCT + catless exhaust + meth, LostMarine is at 118 to 119 mph in the heat of the summer at ATCO and should be 120 when it cools down. LostMarine is a pretty good driver and ATCO is a great track.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by Philip@McKennaPerformance

I'm predicting that if the new F80 turbo M3 comes with 450hp or so then it will be able to hit 500-550 with just full bolt on's and a tune. If you pickup the VF620 kit then you should be able to still eat the F80 M3 for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

550 HP with basic bolt ons vs VF620 kit is not apples to apples.

If you throw in larger turbos and intercooler upgrades and everything else that can be done to a Turbo motor you will likely easily be in the mid 600s for the F80 M3.

[Marco@McKennaPerformance]

Originally Posted by HREM3

550 HP with basic bolt ons vs VF620 kit is not apples to apples.

If you throw in larger turbos and intercooler upgrades and everything else that can be done to a Turbo motor you will likely easily be in the mid 600s for the F80 M3.

Larger turbo upgrades won't be available for a while. Heck even tunes may not be available for a while due to the time needed to research, develop, crack BMW's systems.

I think it's a pretty fair comparison since the E9x owners already own the car and for them to get the F80 they will have to drop 10-30k on top of their car to get the F80. So for that amount of money they can instead go with a VF620 kit and save 20k while still beating a stock F80 M3 easy and even a modded one. Most likely 550hp on the F80 would only be seen with down pipes, mid pipes, intercooler, air intake, methanol injection. Sure 600+ can be achieved with turbo upgrades but that will be pretty far away.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by Philip@McKennaPerformance

Larger turbo upgrades won't be available for a while. Heck even tunes may not be available for a while due to the time needed to research, develop, crack BMW's systems.

I think it's a pretty fair comparison since the E9x owners already own the car and for them to get the F80 they will have to drop 10-30k on top of their car to get the F80. So for that amount of money they can instead go with a VF620 kit and save 20k while still beating a stock F80 M3 easy and even a modded one. Most likely 550hp on the F80 would only be seen with down pipes, mid pipes, intercooler, air intake, methanol injection. Sure 600+ can be achieved with turbo upgrades but that will be pretty far away.

I agree that it will take a long time for the F80 to become as established as the E9x M3s are.

Pretty much 100% dead on with my thought process. It will definitely be far out for aftermarket products. I also own this car outright, so upgrading to the F80 is 30k right there. Plus 10k in the basic full exhaust wheels and drop mods = 40k min.

[Marco@McKennaPerformance]

Originally Posted by HREM3

I agree that it will take a long time for the F80 to become as established as the E9x M3s are.

Pretty much 100% dead on with my thought process. It will definitely be far out for aftermarket products. I also own this car outright, so upgrading to the F80 is 30k right there. Plus 10k in the basic full exhaust wheels and drop mods = 40k min.

Judging from the new 3 series wheel specs and older ones technically you would be able to reuse the rims but for sure the exhaust and suspension mods would have to be purchased new.

The VF620 kit can be had for about 13k so anyone thinking of upgrading from an E9x to F80 would save alot of money by just supercharging if power/performance was their main concern.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Congratulations that's awesome! I'm sure you are going to love it.

I just don't want you to expect your car is going to be as fast as M&M's. His car is a huge outlier. He has done a lot of custom work to get to that level. He may be at 650 HP. You will be at or under 550. Don't think you can trap anywhere near where he traps. If I were you, I would expect 116-117. That is very good.

Again, with a 535 kit, + DCT + catless exhaust + meth, LostMarine is at 118 to 119 mph in the heat of the summer at ATCO and should be 120 when it cools down. LostMarine is a pretty good driver and ATCO is a great track.

Like I said , we'll see but a 5-6mph trap speed increase would be pretty dissapointing for a 120hp increase in power. I know it's not apple to apple but with just a stg2 on my STI(50hp) I had a 9mph(from 101 to 110mph) increase in trap speed and pretty much the same with all my turbo cars that I have chipped! My guess is that there are a lot of folks that don't drive their cars to their full potential at the 1/4 mile(DCT excluded)! It's like when peolple say my car would get destroyed by a stock DCT and they also say a stock DCT would get destroyed by a stock C63, I've raced my friends C63 a couple of times and he always has a hard time passing me.

It's also weird that the best time I've seen a manual VT1 do was 12.9 and my stock manual M3 did 12.8! Anyway, for now I'll stick to my own calculation to make me an idea of what it will be because from my experience internet is not the most reliable source, but be sure I'll post some results as soon as I have some!

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by Philip@McKennaPerformance

Judging from the new 3 series wheel specs and older ones technically you would be able to reuse the rims but for sure the exhaust and suspension mods would have to be purchased new.

The VF620 kit can be had for about 13k so anyone thinking of upgrading from an E9x to F80 would save alot of money by just supercharging if power/performance was their main concern.

I'm kind of caught in the middle since I've already had my car for 4 years and 40k miles. I was going to supercharge, but I honestly don't think that will satisfy my thirst for something "new".

If my car was 2 years old or so, I'd be all over it, keep it for another 3-4 years then move to whatever is out or coming out then.

[Marco@McKennaPerformance]

Originally Posted by HREM3

I'm kind of caught in the middle since I've already had my car for 4 years and 40k miles. I was going to supercharge, but I honestly don't think that will satisfy my thirst for something "new".

If my car was 2 years old or so, I'd be all over it, keep it for another 3-4 years then move to whatever is out or coming out then.

Not sure what you have done to it yet but if I was in your shoes I'd get the new LCI lights for the E92, a front lip and the supercharger. That should make the car feel and look like a totally different car. Might satisfy your thirst for another 3-4years and by then they could have the F80 LCI refresh and the aftermarket scene should be moving at a good pace.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by DaFish

This I found interesting....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen

M3 SC against a bunch of GTRs, and 997TTs all modded.

Suffice to say, the M3 SC is just as fast... with all the creature comforts and room we have come to love from a 3 series.

Resale, or scrap value (in the case of an accident) would be the issue on modding ANY car. I am getting next to nothing for the mods I have done to the 335, in fact it is harder to sell because everyone things you drove the nuts off it, and you typically do - which is why you did it.

Anyway, lots to think about when you are putting this kind of cash out.

I think back to why I did the 335 upgrades and it was for M3 or better performance, for less than the M3 price. It certainly did that in a straight line.

If I am modding a M3 to a GTR or 997TT performance level - what do you lose?

1) Resale - as I mentioned.
2) what about insurance? You have to tell your insurance company of the mods - right? What hit do you have on that?
3) Any other ones?

GTR - 0 to 60 is just unmatched though with the 4 wheel drive. Pulling out of corners with WOT, I bet this is unmatched too. Pulling out in front of traffic would be something else in the GTR, blink, your speeding.

I would think it would come down to
1) M3 - SC
2) GTR - slight mods (I need to check out the space inside that car).

Loving the discussion everyone - thanks for the replies.

Interesting how your decision is being weighed heavily by straight line roll-on drag racing. Great for determining which cars have high trap speeds, but nothing else. This is more of how I would evaluate my choices, with my nod going more to the Z06 these days:

Skip all the nonsense and start at 3:43

[Killerfish2012]

More eye candy!
Lingenfelter 606 Z06

[clar]

Wait for the F80 M3. Being a turbo, it would be a lot easier to get more power out of it and yet maintain the usability of your 335i.

[e92_m3]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

More eye candy!
Lingenfelter 606 Z06

That vette driver has so much control of his car until the end. He's really quick on the straights.

[erm324]

Just test drove my buddy's 2012 GTR with a full exhaust, tune, and intake. I am absolutely speechless over that car, as where I once HATED the GTR (said it was a cheap nissan, no fun because of AWD, souless, etc...) I am in love with everything about it. Even though it is a bigger car, it is so nimble and does not feel its true weight at all - the car feels very planted and is very confidence inspiring and IMHO handles way better than my M3. The transmission is another plus, I personally think it is better than the DCT in my M3 as well. Maybe my DCT is shot from constant abuse and the power from the blower (extremely clunky at low rpm, and clunks on some downshifts and has delays), but the GTR transmission is a touch more responsive than the DCT in my car and is significantly less clunky. Another thing I loved was the torque - even though my M3 is faster from a roll, if I do not start at 5500rpm against the GTR from 45-50mph I will not pull on him. The GTR has torque everywhere, and honestly appeases my appetite for power way better than my M3 does (probably due to the M3 not having any power whatsoever under 5k rpm).

Only complaint is the noise in the cabin - you can hear everything outside, and the car does not feel as luxurious as the M3 on the interior (M3 is better insulated and smoother feeling on the interior, as where the GTR is more rough and noisy).

In the end, for someone looking for a great performance platform the M3 does not compare to the GTR. Its amazing how my views of a car I absolutely despised changed after 5 minutes of driving it. If I were you I'd consider a GTR, it is most definitely a step up from a blown M3 (also another thing to consider is reliability - a blown M3 is going to be nowhere as reliable as a lightly modded GTR). I am keeping my eye on the 2013 GTR....

[konaforever]

Originally Posted by erm324

Just test drove my buddy's 2012 GTR with a full exhaust, tune, and intake. I am absolutely speechless over that car, as where I once HATED the GTR (said it was a cheap nissan, no fun because of AWD, souless, etc...) I am in love with everything about it. Even though it is a bigger car, it is so nimble and does not feel its true weight at all - the car feels very planted and is very confidence inspiring and IMHO handles way better than my M3. The transmission is another plus, I personally think it is better than the DCT in my M3 as well. Maybe my DCT is shot from constant abuse and the power from the blower (extremely clunky at low rpm, and clunks on some downshifts and has delays), but the GTR transmission is a touch more responsive than the DCT in my car and is significantly less clunky. Another thing I loved was the torque - even though my M3 is faster from a roll, if I do not start at 5500rpm against the GTR from 45-50mph I will not pull on him. The GTR has torque everywhere, and honestly appeases my appetite for power way better than my M3 does (probably due to the M3 not having any power whatsoever under 5k rpm).

Only complaint is the noise in the cabin - you can hear everything outside, and the car does not feel as luxurious as the M3 on the interior (M3 is better insulated and smoother feeling on the interior, as where the GTR is more rough and noisy).

In the end, for someone looking for a great performance platform the M3 does not compare to the GTR. Its amazing how my views of a car I absolutely despised changed after 5 minutes of driving it. If I were you I'd consider a GTR, it is most definitely a step up from a blown M3 (also another thing to consider is reliability - a blown M3 is going to be nowhere as reliable as a lightly modded GTR). I am keeping my eye on the 2013 GTR....

Another one converted!

The GTR just has grip and acceleration like no other!

[unclejesse1]

Originally Posted by erm324

Just test drove my buddy's 2012 GTR with a full exhaust, tune, and intake. I am absolutely speechless over that car, as where I once HATED the GTR (said it was a cheap nissan, no fun because of AWD, souless, etc...) I am in love with everything about it. Even though it is a bigger car, it is so nimble and does not feel its true weight at all - the car feels very planted and is very confidence inspiring and IMHO handles way better than my M3. The transmission is another plus, I personally think it is better than the DCT in my M3 as well. Maybe my DCT is shot from constant abuse and the power from the blower (extremely clunky at low rpm, and clunks on some downshifts and has delays), but the GTR transmission is a touch more responsive than the DCT in my car and is significantly less clunky. Another thing I loved was the torque - even though my M3 is faster from a roll, if I do not start at 5500rpm against the GTR from 45-50mph I will not pull on him. The GTR has torque everywhere, and honestly appeases my appetite for power way better than my M3 does (probably due to the M3 not having any power whatsoever under 5k rpm).

Only complaint is the noise in the cabin - you can hear everything outside, and the car does not feel as luxurious as the M3 on the interior (M3 is better insulated and smoother feeling on the interior, as where the GTR is more rough and noisy).

In the end, for someone looking for a great performance platform the M3 does not compare to the GTR. Its amazing how my views of a car I absolutely despised changed after 5 minutes of driving it. If I were you I'd consider a GTR, it is most definitely a step up from a blown M3 (also another thing to consider is reliability - a blown M3 is going to be nowhere as reliable as a lightly modded GTR). I am keeping my eye on the 2013 GTR....

yup

[Novator]

DaFish, you could always go with an E46 M3 and add a VF570 or a comparable S/C system from European Supercharger Systems (ESS) or AA (Active Autowerke). There is also the HPF route in which I think Stage 1 would be enough. The only thing different would be that Akrapovic doesn't make an exhaust for the E46 M3, would be a used car (miles/condition varying), no signature V8 sound, no DCT if you don't prefer a manual, no warranty (though you'd lose it anyway with what you plan on doing to an E9X M3). Just a suggestion . . .

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Congratulations that's awesome! I'm sure you are going to love it.

I just don't want you to expect your car is going to be as fast as M&M's. His car is a huge outlier. He has done a lot of custom work to get to that level. He may be at 650 HP. You will be at or under 550. Don't think you can trap anywhere near where he traps. If I were you, I would expect 116-117. That is very good.

Again, with a 535 kit, + DCT + catless exhaust + meth, LostMarine is at 118 to 119 mph in the heat of the summer at ATCO and should be 120 when it cools down. LostMarine is a pretty good driver and ATCO is a great track.

I told you!

I finally visited the drag strip with my VT1 and no other performance mods except for my Corsa exhaust, this run was my best trap of the day!


Like I told you before, I expected 118-119mph traps with just the VT1 and that's what I did: one 119 and a lot of 118s so overhall I'm really happy with the kit but not more because of the numbers but mostly for the way my car behaves now, just so much more fun to drive!!

Did I told you not to worry for me!
But for real I really thought 116-117mph was kind of slow for a 550hp M3, but you almost made me doupt!




As for the 125mph trap with a VT1 on a catless DCT, now that I've seen what my car is trapping, if the DCT is really that much faster, it just seems even more plausible!

[Longboarder]

^^ wow great job Alex I'm glad i was wrong. Do you happen to know the density altitude at your track? What track did you run at? By the way LostMarine went back to ATCO recently with his 535 kit and changed to a progressive meth system and got 121.XX but it was a cool night there with the DA at negative 600. So DA's play a pretty big role but nonetheless that's a great trap with just an exhaust. Now let's just change that 12.9 to an 11.9

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

^^ wow great job Alex I'm glad i was wrong. Do you happen to know the density altitude at your track? What track did you run at? By the way LostMarine went back to ATCO recently with his 535 kit and changed to a progressive meth system and got 121.XX but it was a cool night there with the DA at negative 600. So DA's play a pretty big role but nonetheless that's a great trap with just an exhaust. Now let's just change that 12.9 to an 11.9

The track was Luskville, don't know the elevation, it was about 14 celcious outside!

My best run so far is 12.4 with a 60foot of 2.0 and a bad shift to 3rd(hit the cut-off of the 2nd), that day was hooking up but I did'nt had time to try better, there was just too many people and not enough time! Next year maybe cause it's kind of cold here now in Quebec, I don't think I'll have time for another fresh sunny day!

[Longboarder]

You definitely had very good DA conditions. It's still hot most places in the states now...heck it was 100 deg F here yesterday. But nonetheless, that's still a great trap.

http://www.dragtimes.com/da-density-...t+Weather+Data

[Optherion]

Originally Posted by erm324

Just test drove my buddy's 2012 GTR with a full exhaust, tune, and intake. I am absolutely speechless over that car, as where I once HATED the GTR (said it was a cheap nissan, no fun because of AWD, souless, etc...) I am in love with everything about it. Even though it is a bigger car, it is so nimble and does not feel its true weight at all - the car feels very planted and is very confidence inspiring and IMHO handles way better than my M3. The transmission is another plus, I personally think it is better than the DCT in my M3 as well. Maybe my DCT is shot from constant abuse and the power from the blower (extremely clunky at low rpm, and clunks on some downshifts and has delays), but the GTR transmission is a touch more responsive than the DCT in my car and is significantly less clunky. Another thing I loved was the torque - even though my M3 is faster from a roll, if I do not start at 5500rpm against the GTR from 45-50mph I will not pull on him. The GTR has torque everywhere, and honestly appeases my appetite for power way better than my M3 does (probably due to the M3 not having any power whatsoever under 5k rpm).

Only complaint is the noise in the cabin - you can hear everything outside, and the car does not feel as luxurious as the M3 on the interior (M3 is better insulated and smoother feeling on the interior, as where the GTR is more rough and noisy).

In the end, for someone looking for a great performance platform the M3 does not compare to the GTR. Its amazing how my views of a car I absolutely despised changed after 5 minutes of driving it. If I were you I'd consider a GTR, it is most definitely a step up from a blown M3 (also another thing to consider is reliability - a blown M3 is going to be nowhere as reliable as a lightly modded GTR). I am keeping my eye on the 2013 GTR....

Another one converted too!

In the first week I had my GT-R, tore out the entire interior, put sound insulation, vibration dampening, and FAA Aircraft certified heat insulation foil blankets. Total cost $180 and only added 40lbs to the car. Was a fun project. Considering it is now quieter than my 7 series. In fact, it is so quiet inside I basically have a straight pipe exhaust and I don't think the car is loud enough. You have to be outside the car and then the "holy shit that is loud" hits you.