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      09-14-2012, 09:58 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
I treat turns 2 and 3 as one big sweeper, so I can set up on the far right on track out after T3, then cut hard to the left to run over the inside curbing and bit of dirt in T4. I can try to not brake there, but it feels like I need to in order to plant the front end a bit and make that sharp left transition.
Yeah, same line here. I'm assuming you're in advanced based on your lap times, have a look at your videos, the vast majority of cars don't brake or tap at T4. If you take T2/T3 wide, brake for T3, stick all the way to the right you should have plenty of space to turn hard left and stay on the throttle all the way before you brake for T5 again.

If you do it right, cheerios, fries and spare change will land neatly on the passenger side
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      09-14-2012, 10:21 AM   #24
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Holy crap, that was a close call!
glad you are ok!
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      09-14-2012, 11:02 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
Yeah, same line here. I'm assuming you're in advanced based on your lap times, have a look at your videos, the vast majority of cars don't brake or tap at T4. If you take T2/T3 wide, brake for T3, stick all the way to the right you should have plenty of space to turn hard left and stay on the throttle all the way before you brake for T5 again.

If you do it right, cheerios, fries and spare change will land neatly on the passenger side
One other line...
I tap and take T2 early which swings me wide for the entrance of T3. I apex the last bit of curbing of T3 and as I unwind from T3 I turn in for T4.
If it works right, the only use of brakes is the turn in for T2. If needed you can throttle steer the arc from T2, exiting T3, and into T4.
To me, its one of the best characteristics of Lightning.
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      09-14-2012, 01:48 PM   #26
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Very lucky not to hit the wall at that speed. It seems to me that you got on the power too soon and too hard. That corner is very tricky and things can get very hairy if not done right.
You had planty of run of area and instead of trying to save it and stay on the track, you should have gone straigt to the grass.
I almost ran out of the road in that same spot first time, when i was learning the track. Twice, two cars spun right in front of me and i was able to avoid the contact both times.
Anyway, glad you didnt damage the car or yourself.
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      09-15-2012, 05:54 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
IWhen you say using more of the track on entry, do you mean setting up for the turn by driving far over to the left side of the track on approach under braking, then turning sharp to the right and accelerating over the hill in a straight line, just clipping the inside curbing at the crest of the hill? That's the classic HPDE/school line taught at Lightning, because it's the safest. I was trying a tighter line through the corner this time, hugging the inside more, doing what a club racer had shown me as a more defensive/racing line. He's probably done it 1000 more times than I have, though.
Not sure why you are trying defensive lines through that turn in an HPDE, or why the racer mentioned that approach for you to try. It doesn't do anything for you because that is not the faster way through that corner. The HPDE line you describe is more or less the fast line. I put many qualification laps in at that track (~1:15s in a ~2500lb/220whp E30 M3), and that is pretty much how I drive it with the exception of trail braking hard to rotate the car before the uphill.

Trying defensive lines can help you explore stuff I guess, but then you need to take it down a notch or you will run out of room like you did. That is a hard turn to pass people in a race in general although I've done it a few times. The main issues there are that usually there is a lot of crap that gets kicked onto the track downhill, and if you take an outer line down the hill, grip can be unpredictable and combine that with the off-camber "feel" of the drop, you can get in trouble. I've put two wheels off coming down several times, but the only time I spun there was due to my stupidity of trying a bit too much in my X-E92 M3 on old formula and cold BFGs on a damp track. I ran out of skill really fast on that one and ended up a few meters from the wall you drove past.
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      09-15-2012, 07:40 AM   #28
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Yikes! Close one - glad you were able to save it!
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      09-15-2012, 10:39 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klammer View Post
Wow, that was real close Nice save
Thanks. Even though I reacted to the initial slide, I still just felt like a passenger...
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Originally Posted by M3 Esq. View Post
Ha ha, wait, what? You allowed french fries to be eaten in your car?
I know--it was probably mine. Don't tell my kids!
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Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
Yeah, same line here. I'm assuming you're in advanced based on your lap times, have a look at your videos, the vast majority of cars don't brake or tap at T4. If you take T2/T3 wide, brake for T3, stick all the way to the right you should have plenty of space to turn hard left and stay on the throttle all the way before you brake for T5 again.

If you do it right, cheerios, fries and spare change will land neatly on the passenger side

That's the difference--I don't brake while sweeping into T3, I just modulate the throttle. But then I brake to set up for cutting left into T4. You're suggesting instead that I brake a bit to get me into T3 far to the right side, then get on the throttle from then all the way through that little chute and T4? I'll try that next time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by besiktas View Post
Holy crap, that was a close call!
glad you are ok!
Me too.
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Originally Posted by ixm3 View Post
One other line...
I tap and take T2 early which swings me wide for the entrance of T3. I apex the last bit of curbing of T3 and as I unwind from T3 I turn in for T4.
If it works right, the only use of brakes is the turn in for T2. If needed you can throttle steer the arc from T2, exiting T3, and into T4.
To me, its one of the best characteristics of Lightning.
I'll try it.
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Originally Posted by Purple Derple View Post
I will just say I never made it to turn 2. It was very poor form.
Ouch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
Very lucky not to hit the wall at that speed. It seems to me that you got on the power too soon and too hard. That corner is very tricky and things can get very hairy if not done right.
You had planty of run of area and instead of trying to save it and stay on the track, you should have gone straigt to the grass.
I almost ran out of the road in that same spot first time, when i was learning the track. Twice, two cars spun right in front of me and i was able to avoid the contact both times.
Anyway, glad you didnt damage the car or yourself.
It was interesting, because it's a line through there that I've tried a lot, and I didn't really see it as being any different or a problem until I clipped the step-up edge of the curbing on track-out. I guess I normally come pretty close to it, or at least touch the track-out curbing further down track once it's smooth and established. This time I was just a bit off from what I normally do. But it sounds like a lot of others on here find the HPDE line through T5 not only safer but faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Not sure why you are trying defensive lines through that turn in an HPDE, or why the racer mentioned that approach for you to try. It doesn't do anything for you because that is not the faster way through that corner. The HPDE line you describe is more or less the fast line. I put many qualification laps in at that track (~1:15s in a ~2500lb/220whp E30 M3), and that is pretty much how I drive it with the exception of trail braking hard to rotate the car before the uphill.

Trying defensive lines can help you explore stuff I guess, but then you need to take it down a notch or you will run out of room like you did. That is a hard turn to pass people in a race in general although I've done it a few times. The main issues there are that usually there is a lot of crap that gets kicked onto the track downhill, and if you take an outer line down the hill, grip can be unpredictable and combine that with the off-camber "feel" of the drop, you can get in trouble. I've put two wheels off coming down several times, but the only time I spun there was due to my stupidity of trying a bit too much in my X-E92 M3 on old formula and cold BFGs on a damp track. I ran out of skill really fast on that one and ended up a few meters from the wall you drove past.
Very helpful info--thanks. I do like to try different lines at times to see if they are faster, or just to practice for those occasions when you might find yourself taking a late point-by and having to enter a turn off-line. I want to know how to handle those situations, even if they're infrequent. This club racer I had ride with me a couple of months ago (runs an E36 M3, but I don't recall his name) was adamant about not taking the school line through T5, but based on your comments here and this experience, I think I'll follow your line. Do you instruct for NASA or SCDA? I'd like you to ride with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypod View Post
Yikes! Close one - glad you were able to save it!
Thanks.
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      09-15-2012, 10:45 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
I welcome analysis--suggestions appreciated. When you say using more of the track on entry, do you mean setting up for the turn by driving far over to the left side of the track on approach under braking, then turning sharp to the right and accelerating over the hill in a straight line, just clipping the inside curbing at the crest of the hill? That's the classic HPDE/school line taught at Lightning, because it's the safest. I was trying a tighter line through the corner this time, hugging the inside more, doing what a club racer had shown me as a more defensive/racing line. He's probably done it 1000 more times than I have, though.
Its hard to tell, looks like your turn in point could have been closer to the edge of the track which will give you more room to rotate the car.

Again, I've never been on that track but I would look closely at the 2 turns before it which put you at that particular turn in point which caused you to go off. I've always found that I usually did something different in the turn before...even if there's a straight in between. It throws me off my rhythm and don't adjust.

You would have been fine if you didn't hit the front edge of the curbing. That upset the car and made the car pretty much uncontrollable.
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      09-15-2012, 12:42 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
Very helpful info--thanks. I do like to try different lines at times to see if they are faster, or just to practice for those occasions when you might find yourself taking a late point-by and having to enter a turn off-line. I want to know how to handle those situations, even if they're infrequent. This club racer I had ride with me a couple of months ago (runs an E36 M3, but I don't recall his name) was adamant about not taking the school line through T5, but based on your comments here and this experience, I think I'll follow your line. Do you instruct for NASA or SCDA? I'd like you to ride with me.
Well, in general, when entering a corner leading to a long straight, using all of the available track to set yourself up for the turn-in is just common sense (unless you are trying to block someone). Whatever turning you don't do before the apex, you'll have to do after the apex (and in your case, you didn't have enough track after the apex to do that), so I have no idea what the other guy was referencing. If you are not using all the track into or out of that turn and still make it, then I'd say you are not carrying the maximum amount of speed you could through it. Learning to drive off-line is always good for other reasons though as you pointed out. Yes, I instruct for NASA, but I am not around much this year due to travel/work. I think I've seen your car around a few times. I'll say hi next time I see you. Best.

P.S. Actually, as bigjae1976 suggested, there is something not so right about the turn before that one. You seem to have over-braked into that one and came out too slow and did not really use the track there as a consequence coming out. That might have affected your car placement going into the uphill turn.
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      09-17-2012, 11:52 AM   #32
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Wow that was a close call and great save. Similar thing happen to me when I was at Lightning, not to that extent, but man I know the feeling...
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      09-18-2012, 11:21 AM   #33
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Nice recovery! That was super close. I've gone off on turn 5 trying to pass on the outside, but there's a lot of run-off there.

Hope you don't mind if I critique the rest of your video.

Good line entering turn 2, a few feet off the apex and then parallel to the sand patch on the left side before turn 3. Use more of the curb on turn 3 though, go right over it. Your turn into 4 was late, go right up on that too. There's a lot of track out on turn 4 since they extended the curbing, you should end up out there. Once there, bring the nose of the car and point it at the rightmost billboard (Coca cola last time I checked). That is turn 4 "A". Doing that will set you up so you're parallel to the next curbing on the left right before 5 (don't go on that period, but get right next to it close as possible). Turn in more on 5 - use that curb too. But overall, nice driving. I hope to see you at some events.

Edit: There is a PCA event Nov 3-4 @ NJMP, one track each day.
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      09-29-2012, 09:39 PM   #34
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same track, and my scariest moment here.
for those who dont want to wait for the suspense, forward to around 3min. i literally froze and prayed a straight line was my best choice, then said well they do it in races, why not. lol

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