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      09-11-2012, 06:31 PM   #45
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Car has low 6's in her .....

Stay tuned....
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      09-12-2012, 12:13 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post




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      09-12-2012, 09:16 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
I won't argue with you here.. If the customer is looking for 700 crank you are correct.

But most users will never get to this level.
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I missed this reply. Do you mind elaborating on this? From what I gather you are implying that it is ok to offer a system that is maxed out since the customer will not want to upgrade? If the system is rated at 620 and is not capable of 700 wouldn't one assume the system is too close to its limits, whether it be hardware or something else?
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      09-12-2012, 09:54 AM   #48
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Andrew@AA, I couldn't give the slightest fuck about midrange torque, on these cars I want the max hp to lay at the top of the RPM range where I do my racing. I dont race from 2krpm to redline, I'm ususally starting at 5k RPM and over and after every shift that leaves me, once again, above 5krpm - this area, as we all know, greatly favors the V3 blower than the HKS unit and which is why from my experience both at the track and on the street the highest level kits using V3 blowers will always outperform (both on the dyno and in real world conditions) cars using the small HKS blower...you dont have much of an arguement whatsoever (you have 1 video of an AA car custom tweaked beating an entry level ESS kit, while the V3 blower has record timeslips, dynos, and 60-130's), please enough with this shit.
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      09-12-2012, 10:11 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erm324 View Post
Andrew@AA, I couldn't give the slightest fuck about midrange torque, on these cars I want the max hp to lay at the top of the RPM range where I do my racing. I dont race from 2krpm to redline, I'm ususally starting at 5k RPM and over and after every shift that leaves me, once again, above 5krpm - this area, as we all know, greatly favors the V3 blower than the HKS unit and which is why from my experience both at the track and on the street the highest level kits using V3 blowers will always outperform (both on the dyno and in real world conditions) cars using the small HKS blower...you dont have much of an arguement whatsoever (you have 1 video of an AA car custom tweaked beating an entry level ESS kit, while the V3 blower has record timeslips, dynos, and 60-130's), please enough with this shit.

Its not just mid range but almost a 70-80% torque and horsepower advantage thought the rpm range. Yes the vortech is more suited for extreme high horsepower applications I totally agree.

A member that does not own our kit was nice enough to make this comparison of two cars in Miami on a dyno jet.



Like I stated before our straight bolt 625 kit vs any other 625 kit out of box on the market it we are very comparable.

The AA car in the video is not custom tweaked.. His setup is standard for all level two kits leaving our warehouse.


I believe our times are very good for 93 oct and street tires.

E9X M3's Supercharged

10.69 @ 129.38 MPH - 1.63 60' - Mike@VAC, (Klevis@VAC - Driver) / E92 M3 DCT / VF620 SC / 93 Octane / MT ET / DA -1300'
10.87 @ 131.40 MPH - 1.87 60' - Mikewads / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT600 - 100 shot / 93/100 Mix / MT ET / DA +147'
11.20 @ 127.30 MPH - 1.90 60' - M&M / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT625 / Raised Rev Limiter / WM / MT ET / DA +4500'
11.29 @ 126.70 MPH - 1.84 60' - akh23456 / E90 M3 DCT /AA Stage 2 / 93 Octane / WM / Street tires / DA -1600'
11.30 @ 129.34 MPH - 1.97 60' - DLSJ5 / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT625 / 95 Octane / WM / Nitto DR's / DA +1300'
11.41 @ 131.67 MPH - 2.06 60' - DLSJ5 / E92 M3 DCT / Gintani Stage 2 / MS109/ WM / BFG DR's / DA +1166'
11.61 @ 123.17 MPH - 1.83 60' - Smokeyob / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT600 / Akrapovic Evolution / 93 Oct/ Pilot Super Sport / DA +1000'??
11.68 @ 122.44 MPH - 1.87 60' - 1SICKM / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT 535 / 93 octane / Street tires / DA -1600'
11.71 @ 132.26 MPH - 2.14 60' - ERM324 / E92M3 DCT / ESS VT625 / 100 octane / Nitto DR's / DA -700'
11.94 @ 118.66 MPH - 1.93 60' - prodigymb / E92 M3 6-MT / ESS VT600 / 93 octane / DR's / DA -1100'

E9X M3's Supercharged in order of trap speed

11.71 @ 132.26 MPH - 2.14 60' - ERM324 / E92M3 DCT / ESS VT625 / 100 octane / Nitto DR's
11.41 @ 131.67 MPH - 2.06 60' - DLSJ5 / E92 M3 DCT / Gintani Stage 2 / MS109/ WM / BFG DR's
10.87 @ 131.40 MPH - 1.87 60' - Mikewads / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT600 - 100 shot / 93/100 Mix / MT ET
10.69 @ 129.38 MPH - 1.63 60' - Mike@VAC, (Klevis@VAC - Driver) / E92 M3 DCT / VF620 SC / 93 Octane / MT ET
11.30 @ 129.34 MPH - 1.97 60' - DLSJ5 / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT625 / 95 Octane / WM / Nitto DR's
11.20 @ 127.30 MPH - 1.90 60' - M&M / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT625 / Raised Rev Limiter / WM / 4500' DA
11.29 @ 126.70 MPH - 1.84 60' - akh23456 / E90 M3 DCT /AA Stage 2 / 93 Octane / WM / Street tires
11.61 @ 123.17 MPH - 1.83 60' - Smokeyob / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT600 / Akrapovic Evolution / 93 Oct/ Pilot Super Sport
11.68 @ 122.44 MPH - 1.87 60' - 1SICKM / E92 M3 DCT / ESS VT 535 / 93 octane / Street tires
11.94 @ 118.66 MPH - 1.93 60' - prodigymb / E92 M3 6-MT / ESS VT600 / 93 octane / DR's
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      09-12-2012, 10:17 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Personally I think everyone is tired of hearing the stats and the numbers behind most of these kits.

Y

My motto... run your car not your mouth.
Thats a cute graph you posted (manipulated and skewed nonetheless), I thought you were into the real world results instead of playing with dynographs and hearing about all the stats of the kits?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Its not just mid range but almost a 70-80% torque and horsepower advantage thought the rpm range. Yes the vortech is more suited for extreme high horsepower applications I totally agree.
Now by actually running the cars (not playing with dynosheets), we get the real answer (and please dont bring that video in here comparing two different kits - I might as well race your stage 1 kit with my stage 2 car and use that as the basis for my argument that I have the better kit). If this was the case the AA cars would putting down the best numbers at the track. Your times are not good im comparison to other companies running street tires and pump gas [ESPECIALLY taking DA into consideration - for example, Drew trapped 3mph better in 2900DA worse than the AA car (-1600 vs +1300)] . ESS is outperforming you, VF is outperforming you, and Gintani is outperforming you. You cant make the arguement that slicks helping in achieving my time, for I was cutting worse 60fts than your best AA run. Also, racegas is not accounting for a 6mph trap speed disparity (we are not tuning for it, so there is maybe a 10-20hp gain at most). I am usually unbiased and objective but I dont see any validity behind your arguement whatsoever.

Last edited by erm324; 09-12-2012 at 10:32 AM.
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      09-12-2012, 10:45 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erm324 View Post
Thats a cute graph you posted (manipulated and skewed nonetheless), I thought you were into the real world results instead of playing with dynographs and hearing about all the stats of the kits?



Now by actually running the cars (not playing with dynosheets), we get the real answer (and please dont bring that video in here comparing two different kits - I might as well race your stage 1 kit with my stage 2 car and use that as the basis for my argument that I have the better kit). If this was the case the AA cars would putting down the best numbers at the track. Your times are not good im comparison to other companies running street tires and pump gas [ESPECIALLY taking DA into consideration - for example, Drew trapped 3mph better in 2900DA worse than the AA car (-1600 vs +1300)] . ESS is outperforming you, VF is outperforming you, and Gintani is outperforming you. You cant make the arguement that slicks helping in achieving my time, for I was cutting worse 60fts than your best AA run. Also, racegas is not accounting for a 6mph trap speed disparity (we are not tuning for it, so there is maybe a 10-20hp gain at most). I am usually unbiased and objective but I dont see any validity behind your arguement whatsoever.
I posted proof on paper which is all I can do at this point. I will not go back and forth with you any longer.

Keep enjoying your vehicle
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      09-12-2012, 10:57 AM   #52
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Also, since when can you overylay dynocharts? this is new to me.

If your confident why dont you pick a dynojet in miami and bring an AA car over and well get an ESS VT2-625 car too? Very simple

Last edited by erm324; 09-12-2012 at 11:02 AM.
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      09-12-2012, 12:06 PM   #53
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Just to throw it out there, I was the one who overlayed those two graphs. For awhile now, I have been trying to follow a lot of builds from different members seeing the results they get from their respective choices. I couldn't find any DRF files to analyze in WinPep, so I took images of dynos posted on this very forum posted by Jean and Omar.

It was the best comparison I could do for my own personal analysis, I just decided to post here for conversation sake. My biggest curiosity was whether the claims of HKS blowers providing more midrange power was true or not.

So in defense of Andrew, again, I am the one who took the initiative of overlaying those graphs.

Also, I do not own any supercharger kit and don't really have bias towards any directions. My E90 M3 is a turtle compared to you all

From a completely statistical and outside observation. Akash and SonicMs are really the only dynos and performance data that I've seen on this forum. This two samples compared to the countless publicly available data from ESS Tuning. What I'm trying to say is that there is a very small sample size on these forums, potentially too small to make any generalizations. I imagine ESS and AA to have many more clients outside of this small niche community. As I said many times before, I just wish there was more third party and publicly posted data regarding the AA product.

Also, Omar, thanks for replying back to my question. I'll follow up later today after I get a chance to collect my thoughts.
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      09-12-2012, 12:08 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erm324 View Post
Also, since when can you overylay dynocharts? this is new to me.

If your confident why dont you pick a dynojet in miami and bring an AA car over and well get an ESS VT2-625 car too? Very simple
Flipm3 posted that graph on another board...which was from the same dyno, with the 2 cars your asking about.

Good thread with some good info. Although a lot of posts with people just jumping the gun...I agree, a showdown between the 2 cars will be good. So how do we validate that the cars are completely off the shelf?

Have driven both set ups...and being a dealer for both, they are not entirely the same and both have different but strong points.

erm324, having owned vortech s/c'd BMW and HKS BMW's the midrange part throttle point is nothing to be looked over. I definitely love my E46 M3 HKS charged around the city and for having some fun spirited driving...although I don't track it being a cabrio. Our ESS 650 E60 M5 is also amazing and can be very intimidating although I wish there was some more midrange, part throttle boost available...however, the S85 is no torque monster (neither is my S54). Racing you have a valid point, but who spends all day above 5k? Going back to my statement of both kits having its advantages and disadvantages.

Good job to both companies and keep up the good work! I just can't wait to see built motors left right and center on these boards......and all this V8 FI talk is making me hunt on Autotrader all day long.
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      09-12-2012, 12:12 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive View Post
Flipm3 posted that graph on another board...which was from the same dyno, with the 2 cars your asking about.
I am not 100% sure if they both from the same dyno. Could Omar or Jean please confirm?
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      09-12-2012, 12:28 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon@BimmersportAutomotive
Good thread with some good info. Although a lot of posts with people just jumping the gun...I agree, a showdown between the 2 cars will be good. So how do we validate that the cars are completely off the shelf?
Not hard at all.

1. Show up at the gas station with an empty gas take. Fill up with 93 octane.
2. Show up at the dyno. Measure the pulley size. The ESS pulley size is very well known, but the AA pulley size isn't. I've got a friend in Cali who has an AA kit. We'll compare against his.
3. Dyno with boost gauge. Make all dyno files and results public.
4. Run against each other on the highway and make all the videos and results public.
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      09-12-2012, 12:30 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive View Post
Flipm3 posted that graph on another board...which was from the same dyno, with the 2 cars your asking about.

Good thread with some good info. Although a lot of posts with people just jumping the gun...I agree, a showdown between the 2 cars will be good. So how do we validate that the cars are completely off the shelf?
I don't think it matters if the kits are off the shelf to be honest. Any of the VT625 we installed will match up well against ANY of the other systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive View Post
Have driven both set ups...and being a dealer for both, they are not entirely the same and both have different but strong points.
Me too, please elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive View Post
erm324, having owned vortech s/c'd BMW and HKS BMW's the midrange part throttle point is nothing to be looked over. I definitely love my E46 M3 HKS charged around the city and for having some fun spirited driving...although I don't track it being a cabrio. Our ESS 650 E60 M5 is also amazing and can be very intimidating although I wish there was some more midrange, part throttle boost available...however, the S85 is no torque monster (neither is my S54). Racing you have a valid point, but who spends all day above 5k? Going back to my statement of both kits having its advantages and disadvantages.
I get what you are trying to say but its irrelevant unless you compare these blowers on the same platform. You just compared a Inline 6 motor and a V10 motor. The blowers are going to behave completely different, we both know that.

Good job to both companies and keep up the good work! I just can't wait to see built motors left right and center on these boards......and all this V8 FI talk is making me hunt on Autotrader all day long.[/quote]

replying to your text now
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      09-12-2012, 12:51 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Not hard at all.

1. Show up at the gas station with an empty gas take. Fill up with 93 octane.
2. Show up at the dyno. Measure the pulley size. The ESS pulley size is very well known, but the AA pulley size isn't. I've got a friend in Cali who has an AA kit. We'll compare against his.
3. Dyno with boost gauge. Make all dyno files and results public.
4. Run against each other on the highway and make all the videos and results public.




Pulley size I posted in my thread.

Level 1 uses a 105mm and our level 2 uses a 95mm pulley.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...3&postcount=45
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      09-12-2012, 01:30 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Not hard at all.

1. Show up at the gas station with an empty gas take. Fill up with 93 octane.
2. Show up at the dyno. Measure the pulley size. The ESS pulley size is very well known, but the AA pulley size isn't. I've got a friend in Cali who has an AA kit. We'll compare against his.
3. Dyno with boost gauge. Make all dyno files and results public.
4. Run against each other on the highway and make all the videos and results public.

FlipM3,

Sorry did not mean to call you out or anything, just provided factual information in a factual thread. I thought I read on ******* they are from the dyno, so my mistake.


IMG,

Sure, we can compare the guy's in Cali...or just compare the one's at the run. All you have to do is figure out the 4th one since that is the biggest issue. You and akash are how many hours apart? If it is 5-6hrs...come to Toronto and it would be fun to set it up here, I am pretty sure the guys who organized the air port strip runs can set up another one. I have someone willing to do this, out of fun nothing else who is DCT.


Omar,

I am still waiting for the text on that E55 AMG.

As far as the strong points it goes into all areas, aesthetic design, how modular the kit is to the end user, power band and the effect on the reliability with the upgrade, use of vehicle, pricing, ease of installation (in which we have not done an ESS E90 M3 but other BMW FI installations with ESS..yet). What I personally feel? Well - the manufactures of both products have heard my thoughts on the pros and cons and that's that. What matters..is what these people want, the customers. You are right about some customer's not often caring or even knowing about the real technical details and what they do for you, the first 4 on that list are the priority questions..how it gets done, may not be on their mind - as for the rest especially board members who have access to information and how these systems work, gets us here.

For a vehicle driven mainly in the city and for those few times he wants to show off to his friends what's under the hood what do you think is best? Secondly, for those who want a track monster what do you think is best? Why?

As far as off the shelf comment goes, well...I have not found one customer or board member from either side that cannot bring up the fact that maybe it is a modified kit or some sort of speculation - by having a third party installer (I.E. Bimmersport Automotive ) install 2 kits on 2 E9X M3 one from ESS and one from AA off the shelf with documentation on the pulley sizes and blower unit types we can eliminate that.

Last edited by Jon@Bimmersport Automotive; 09-12-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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      09-12-2012, 01:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Pulley size I posted in my thread.

Level 1 uses a 105mm and our level 2 uses a 95mm pulley.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...3&postcount=45
Thank you Sir, Didn't see that
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      09-12-2012, 03:02 PM   #61
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Fuel dumps, plugs fire, tires light up!. HEHEHEHE
All good Stuff.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
Please include both dyno charts that you are talking about in this thread. Regarding SC kits they are pretty simple and straightforward.

1. you compress air
2. air passes through to cooler
3. air passes through cooler
4. compressed air is delivered into manifold
5. pressure measured at manifold is what it is

Let me know if I am missing something and lastly what do you want me to breakdown?
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      09-12-2012, 04:44 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Fuel dumps, plugs fire, tires light up!. HEHEHEHE
All good Stuff.
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      09-12-2012, 05:48 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Fuel dumps, plugs fire, tires light up!. HEHEHEHE
All good Stuff.
Hey Mark,



It's all fun and games until a block gets hurt
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      09-12-2012, 06:03 PM   #64
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Ouch! But agree.

Oh and Hey Omar!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
Hey Mark,



It's all fun and games until a block gets hurt
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      09-14-2012, 01:55 AM   #65
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Blah Blah Blah!

OP, nice numbers and cool video!


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      09-17-2012, 12:47 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCMpower View Post
Ouch! But agree.

Oh and Hey Omar!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by biglare View Post
Blah Blah Blah!

OP, nice numbers and cool video!


Thank you.
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