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      09-10-2012, 09:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IFX View Post
Omar, I'm assuming you guys are an authorized installer for the ESS blower?
Correct sir.
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      09-10-2012, 09:34 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
The type of supercharger and pulley size are irrelevant. When a prospective client begins to look at SC kits they look at kits in "class" or kits with the same rating, IE someone doesn't call and ask to compare your HKS kit to a Rotrex based system. Instead they ask for your stage 2 or the competitors stage 2. At this point the prospective client does not really care about the type of blower, injector size, or kind of intercooler.... They like to compare apples to apples if that makes any sense to you..

Regarding the thread you pointed me to you need to remember just because company A calls their kit a 6xx kit it doesnt necessarily mean the kit makes the advertised #'s. Unfortunately for the enthusiasts and fortunately for some SC companies there is no governing board or body that says you are not allowed to refer to your kit as a 6xx because it does not make the claimed power....

Andrew it's not really a theory, bring up any two systems on the market and we can both break them down.

Best,

Feel free to break down the two 625 you know best sold as is.

As for the link I sent you those kits are made by the same company and rated for crank hp by the same company. They were dyno'd the same day all with different results. My point is all of the power in the curves are anything but similar.
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      09-10-2012, 09:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Feel free to break down the two 625 you know best sold as is.

As for the link I sent you those kits are made by the same company and rated for crank hp by the same company. They were dyno'd the same day all with different results. My point is all of the power in the curves are anything but similar.
Please include both dyno charts that you are talking about in this thread. Regarding SC kits they are pretty simple and straightforward.

1. you compress air
2. air passes through to cooler
3. air passes through cooler
4. compressed air is delivered into manifold
5. pressure measured at manifold is what it is

Let me know if I am missing something and lastly what do you want me to breakdown?
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      09-10-2012, 09:44 PM   #26
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Nice Omar, always enjoy your post. Keep it up.
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      09-10-2012, 09:55 PM   #27
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I don't think there is a need to drag this on any longer, we both know it won't get us anywhere.

A 625 vs 625 showdown sounds like the only way to know for sure

Have a good one!
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      09-10-2012, 10:00 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
I don't think there is a need to drag this on any longer, we both know it won't get us anywhere.

A 625 vs 625 showdown sounds like the only way to know for sure

Have a good one!
What do you consider a showdown? No disrespect to anyone on this forum but if you think a random race on a "closed street" is a showdown then you are sadly mistaken my friend. I couldn't imagine spending $10k+ on a system for my car that way. What about SC kit design, reliability, tuning, part selection?

I get it trust me I get it but please don't start a discussion you can't finish. Anyways thanks for your input.
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      09-10-2012, 10:24 PM   #29
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Personally I think everyone is tired of hearing the stats and the numbers behind most of these kits.

You owned an Active kit and had these same kind of meaningless discussions with Roman if you recall. See Below:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=535278&page=5

Please don't make your next thread about how much better air to water intercoolers are now.

My motto... run your car not your mouth.

We are waiting...
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      09-10-2012, 10:41 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Personally I think everyone is tired of hearing the stats and the numbers behind most of these kits.

You owned an Active kit and had these same kind of meaningless discussions with Roman if you recall. See Below:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=535278&page=5

Please don't make your next thread about how much better air to water intercoolers are now.

My motto... run your car not your mouth.

We are waiting...
Andrew,

Not sure how this became another "vs" thread but if you want to discuss these kits in detail before or after you find your "street race" let me know.

Out of shear curiosity from a business standpoint if you lose to one of these cars that make more power than any car you have ever put a SC on what happens then?!

Best Regards,
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      09-10-2012, 10:45 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
Andrew,

Not sure how this became another "vs" thread but if you want to discuss these kits in detail before or after you find your "street race" let me know.

Out of shear curiosity from a business standpoint if you lose to one of these cars that make more power than any car you have ever put a SC on what happens then?!

Best Regards,
Its pretty clear why you made this thread

And if the company you sell for beats us ?

We build it stronger of course !
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      09-10-2012, 11:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Its pretty clear why you made this thread

And if the company you sell for beats us ?

We build it stronger of course !
Made the thread to enlighten the community and discuss the options ESS offers for the FI community.

In that case you are ahead of the game since you are already doing that
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      09-11-2012, 09:11 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
p.s. this is more of an education thread that anything so all FI companies can feel free to chime in.... it's actually welcome.
Guess that means only ESS Companies ? I came in here because I did not understand what point he was trying to make.

I leave feeling more confused than ever since every post he writes contradicts itself.

The gray car in the Velos banner has an Active charger on it and still does..

Cant be that bad right?
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      09-11-2012, 09:17 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Guess that means only ESS Companies ? I came in here because I did not understand what point he was trying to make.

I leave feeling more confused than ever since every post he writes contradicts itself.

The gray car in the Velos banner has an Active charger on it and still does..

Cant be that bad right?
The color was Reventon, not gray.

Ummm im speechless. Continue wise one.
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      09-11-2012, 09:18 AM   #35
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Great post and I think the start of a very valuable discussion and learning opportunity.

Omar, would you be able to elaborate on what ESS Tuning does to try and assure consistent performance in demanding conditions?

I'm not sure if it's appropriate to ask, but would it be possible to educate us on their design theory of intake manifold, water-air charge cooler, tune, etc?

Understandable if ESS doesn't want to share certain design philosophies, I just thought it may be worth knowing differences and why certain kits have their advantages/disadvantages.

Thanks Omar!
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      09-11-2012, 09:29 AM   #36
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Myth.... power under the curve is great but a little research will show you that most kits on the market will make similar torque because of the behavior of the motor. The biggest difference will be the peak horsepower... if the blower on the car is out of air you can either lower the redline so the drop off in power isn't as big or it will just fall of.. When the blower is done you can ask for all the boost in the world but if the blower isnt capable of it then it simply will not make the power... Others ways to make up for an inadequate blower is via ignition timing which is obviously not recommended and can lead to engine failures....


This is totally false sorry for making a discussion.
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      09-11-2012, 10:02 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Quote:
Myth.... power under the curve is great but a little research will show you that most kits on the market will make similar torque because of the behavior of the motor. The biggest difference will be the peak horsepower... if the blower on the car is out of air you can either lower the redline so the drop off in power isn't as big or it will just fall of.. When the blower is done you can ask for all the boost in the world but if the blower isnt capable of it then it simply will not make the power... Others ways to make up for an inadequate blower is via ignition timing which is obviously not recommended and can lead to engine failures....

This is totally false sorry for making a discussion.
Start using the quote thing it just makes it a little easier to understand. If blower A is not out of if its efficiency range and not maxed out then why would you change the blower on any system? Wouldn't it make sense and be a lot more cost effective for the end user / consumer to make that kit upgradeable. With that said if this blower is out of that efficiency range why is the torque such a big deal if the blower is maxed out? Like I understand the whole pushing it to the limits thing but is that wise...? Let me know if you understand that if not I will elaborate.
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Last edited by Omar@VelosDesignwerks; 09-11-2012 at 10:28 AM.
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      09-11-2012, 10:27 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
Great post and I think the start of a very valuable discussion and learning opportunity.

Omar, would you be able to elaborate on what ESS Tuning does to try and assure consistent performance in demanding conditions?

I'm not sure if it's appropriate to ask, but would it be possible to educate us on their design theory of intake manifold, water-air charge cooler, tune, etc?

Understandable if ESS doesn't want to share certain design philosophies, I just thought it may be worth knowing differences and why certain kits have their advantages/disadvantages.

Thanks Omar!
flipm3,

Thanks for the question and I don't think it's inappropriate to ask any question here. I will answer your questions below as best as I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
Omar, would you be able to elaborate on what ESS Tuning does to try and assure consistent performance in demanding conditions? I'm not sure if it's appropriate to ask, but would it be possible to educate us on their design theory of intake manifold, water-air charge cooler, tune, etc?
Lets consider 95+ degree conditions to be demanding conditions and a little over 100 degree on the track. The ESS system uses an air to water system as do many others on the market. Air to air systems do work well on some cars when the car itself allows for it. I believe ESS chose to go with an air to water system on this platform because of a few reasons.. They were able to create a system capable of cooling up to 1000 HP (similar style used on other high HP platforms). This means you do not have to worry about reaching the efficiency limits of the charge cooling. Obviously air to air is much easier to design since air to water systems require a much more complex manifold design and are usually more expensive. (keep in mind ESS does have systems for other model cars with air to air designs)

On an air to air system the size of the intercoolers needed would require you block off air flow to the factory radiators which are already for the most part. Then when you try to avoid blocking air flow to the factory radiator a large part of the intercooler will hide be stuck behind the factory bumper :-/ . When running a front mount intercooler the idea is to get as much cool air ramming into it as possible, without this it defeats the purpose.
Hmm... The air to water system as designed by ESS also required less install time making it more attractive to the consumer.

This is all without getting into the choice of the blower ESS used, the injector size, and other small things the consumer never really considers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
I just thought it may be worth knowing differences and why certain kits have their advantages/disadvantages.
Ask away...

As far as their tuning is concerned no need to get into that at this point. Lets concentrate on the hardware of these kits first.

Let me know if you have any other questions and thanks again.
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      09-11-2012, 10:48 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@VelosDesignwerks View Post
Start using the quote thing it just makes it a little easier to understand. If blower A is not out of if its efficiency range and not maxed out then why would you change the blower on any system? Wouldn't it make sense and be a lot more cost effective for the end user / consumer to make that kit upgradeable. With that said if this blower is out of that efficiency range why is the torque such a big deal if the blower is maxed out? Like I understand the whole pushing it to the limits thing but is that wise...? Let me know if you understand that if not I will elaborate.

I won't argue with you here.. If the customer is looking for 700 crank you are correct.

But most users will never get to this level.
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      09-11-2012, 10:57 AM   #40
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Different superchargers will have different compressor maps and air flow at any given supercharger RPM. The aim is to match the engine RPM to the best supercharger rpm across the entire RPM range. Some companies may choose to lower the engine RPM but increase the supercharger rpm by use of gearing (pulley size). The desired effect will give a different shape of power output with respect to RPM.

Example -

Take a Vortech V3Si and match 52000rpm (max recommended limit) to 8300rpm on the E9x M3. You will get a given power output through the rpm band.

Now, reduce the pulley size. You will make more boost (and very most likely more power!) through the rpm range but the supercharger will be over spun if the 8300rpm limit of the engine is maintained. So the engine rpm is lowered and the effect will be more power output through the rpm range but with a lower rpm limit due to increased boost levels earlier.

There are multiple reasons why RPM limits can be changed on an engine. All depends what the designers philosophy is and what he thinks the end user would like.

Some end users demand for more low end torque/HP. A supercharger kit changed in the example above is ideal for them as long as the engine can make use of the increased boost at the lower RPM's. In most cases most engines can including the S65.

On the subject of pushing to the limits. Some superchargers are designed to be run at the maximum engine RPM. The run most efficiently at this point as they go through the most desirable compressor map.

Running a supercharger outside of it's efficiency range by over speeding it is a recipe for disaster however! Not recommended. Then you need a bigger blower!

Back on topic. Nice thread, thanks for the dyno graphs with conditions!
Uncorrected graphs would top if off real nice too.

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 09-11-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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      09-11-2012, 06:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
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While it does make sense its not 100% accurate. It would depend on many variables such as the type of supercharger used, pulley size ect. One supercharger can be more efficient then the other from 2000 to 7000 and still out perform the blower with the higher rpm efficiency. Maybe not on a dyno but in a real world situation where it matters.
ATCO is the real world where it matters. *Akash only hit 126 MPH in better DA than ERM hit 132 MPH.

60-130's are also real world where it matters. *Here's the roll car for non built motors: *6.16 (ESS), 6.56 (VF), 6.78 Mike Wads ESS, 6.80 Drew ESS. *I've never seen any AA results because nobody will post them (usually a sign). *Last night I hit five consecutive runs just at 7.0s in +500 DA and will post them later.
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      09-11-2012, 06:05 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutoWerke
A 625 vs 625 showdown sounds like the only way to know for sure.

....

The gray car in the Velos banner has an Active charger on it and still does..
Well then I have the perfect solution, one that Andrew can't object. *Since Andrew is confident any off the shelf results will match the ESS 625, then he can't object to using the Reventon (gray) car sitting at Velos. *Take the Reventon car and the ESS 625 car to the dyno. *Dyno both with boost logs. *Then meet in the "safe area" and run from a dig and 50-130.
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      09-11-2012, 06:24 PM   #43
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Well then I have the perfect solution, one that Andrew can't object. *Since Andrew is confident any off the shelf results will match the ESS 625, then he can't object to using the Reventon (gray) car sitting at Velos. *Take the Reventon car and the ESS 625 car to the dyno. *Dyno both with boost logs. *Then meet in the "safe area" and run from a dig and 50-130.
It's in Detroit :-/

He can create a new thread calling out an ESS car in Miami...
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      09-11-2012, 06:31 PM   #44
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