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      08-31-2012, 10:14 PM   #1
Brian_VACsales
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Talking VAC Motorsports | VAC 4.4 S65 Stroker Kit Build (CP, Carrillo, Darton, Schrick)

Hey guys, we are wrapping up another stroker and I managed to snap some pics this time We should be setting it up on the engine dyno in the next few weeks....there will be a vid. More soon!

This is built for 24hour endurance racing, so compression/cams are mild. I can't wait to do a sprint engine

Pics/vids/more info in a few days.

Specs:
_VAC 4.4 stroker kit
-VAC crank
-CP pistons 12.5:1
-Carrillo rods

_Darton flanged sleeves
_ARP hardware
_billet dry sump oil system

_VAC Stage 3 cylinder heads
-Schrick camshafts
-Schrick valvetrain

_some custom bits
_More info soon!







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      08-31-2012, 11:19 PM   #2
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Is this similar to the GTS engine as far as internals and power (expected power)?
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      09-01-2012, 01:41 AM   #3
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Please post power projections.......... I am in the market for a stroker!!!
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      09-01-2012, 10:13 AM   #4
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      09-01-2012, 08:01 PM   #5
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      09-02-2012, 07:54 AM   #6
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Very nice, great Job guys. Just wondering why would you sleeve an S65 if you are just stroking it for an NA setup. Just curious !
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      09-02-2012, 09:38 AM   #7
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      09-02-2012, 01:56 PM   #8
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      09-02-2012, 03:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img
Very nice, great Job guys. Just wondering why would you sleeve an S65 if you are just stroking it for an NA setup. Just curious !
Probably because they either don't have the equipment to properly bore an Alusil block, or, they don't want to use Mahle Alusil pistons and rings.

Edit: A third possibility that I never thought of until it was pointed out by a friend of mine was using sleeves to save an engine with a bore damaged beyond what a re-bore could correct. Basically if an engine failed and damaged a bore, sleeves could be used to save an otherwise unusable block.
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      09-02-2012, 06:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Very nice, great Job guys. Just wondering why would you sleeve an S65 if you are just stroking it for an NA setup. Just curious !
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Probably because they either don't have the equipment to properly bore an Alusil block, or, they don't want to use Mahle Alusil pistons and rings.

Edit: A third possibility that I never thought of until it was pointed out by a friend of mine was using sleeves to save an engine with a bore damaged beyond what a re-bore could correct. Basically if an engine failed and damaged a bore, sleeves could be used to save an otherwise unusable block.
Some comments on sleeves:
http://www.vacmotorsports.com/blog/a...ur-bmw-engine/

We have the resources to offer any S65 solution, but re-coating the bores can get expensive. Dropping in Mahle pistons is an easy solution as well.

Quick tidbit: Alusil is a brand owned by Kolbenschmidt Pierburg AG. Nikasil is a brand owned by Mahle.

Our client requested sleeves since he will be beating this engine HARD and they offered some extra security. (The engine was in good shape btw) We have had 100% success with CP Pistons and either Darton or LA Sleeve solutions, so its a no brainer.
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      09-02-2012, 08:34 PM   #11
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      09-02-2012, 08:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@VAC View Post
Some comments on sleeves:
http://www.vacmotorsports.com/blog/a...ur-bmw-engine/

We have the resources to offer any S65 solution, but re-coating the bores can get expensive. Dropping in Mahle pistons is an easy solution as well.

Quick tidbit: Alusil is a brand owned by Kolbenschmidt Pierburg AG. Nikasil is a brand owned by Mahle.

Our client requested sleeves since he will be beating this engine HARD and they offered some extra security. (The engine was in good shape btw) We have had 100% success with CP Pistons and either Darton or LA Sleeve solutions, so its a no brainer.
Thank you Mike, I was just wondering cause i almost sleeved my block cause i wanted to push my car beyond the limits but with an aluminum block,i'm limited .
Whats involved in the stage 3 head,is it ported & polished cause the stock heads are state of the art.
What can you tell me more about the valve springs ?
Aftermarket or stocks I've seen are beehive design but these aren't ?
Good Luck with the build and great job guys
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      09-02-2012, 09:39 PM   #13
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I am in the market for a stroker
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      09-02-2012, 10:10 PM   #14
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A VT650 with a stroker ..... Hmmmmmm time to do some research !
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      09-03-2012, 02:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@VAC View Post
Some comments on sleeves:
http://www.vacmotorsports.com/blog/a...ur-bmw-engine/

We have the resources to offer any S65 solution, but re-coating the bores can get expensive. Dropping in Mahle pistons is an easy solution as well.

Quick tidbit: Alusil is a brand owned by Kolbenschmidt Pierburg AG. Nikasil is a brand owned by Mahle.

Our client requested sleeves since he will be beating this engine HARD and they offered some extra security. (The engine was in good shape btw) We have had 100% success with CP Pistons and either Darton or LA Sleeve solutions, so its a no brainer.
Their seems to be some confusion on what Alusil and Nikasil actually are.

Nikasil is indeed a silicon-carbide coating that is electrostaticly plated to aluminium cylinder bores to make for a wearing surface that an aluminium piston can run on with no liner required. Nikasil is an extremely tough and reliable coating for a cylinder bore but many manufacturers went away from using it in North American markets during the 90s due to the fact that it didn't deal well with our high sulphur fuels and would prematurely wear as a result of it. Nikasil is a trademark of MAHLE!

Alusil is NOT a coating, it is a hypereutectic Aluminium-Silicon Alloy (Al17Si4CuMg or A390). Alusil is composed mostly of Aluminium (78%) and Silicon (17%) with the remainder of the alloy being copper and magnesium. When an Alusil block is cast the silicon crystals precipitate evenly through the alloy upon solidification.
ALUSIL is a trademark of Kolbenschmidt Pierburg AG when spelt with all capital letters, however the acronym Alusil refers to any eutectic or hypereutectic aluminium silicon alloy with 16-18% silicon.

When boring/honing an Alusil block a three step process is used.

1): The cylinders are bored using a boring bar to within a few thousandths of an inch.
2): The cylinders are honed with a hone using a traditional style hard abrasive stone and taken to a smooth finish (~50% of the material is removed in this nature).
3): The cylinders are honed again using a soft honing stone. The abrasive is generally either SiC or corundum bonded to the backing plate in an elastic medium (There are also felt honing stones available that are meant to be used in conjunction with an abrasive compound similar to a valve lapping compound, the compound is to be applied to both the bore and the felt hone. These felt hones are generally marketed as a lower cost alternative for machine shops that see only a limited number of alusil engines per year). This elastic honing stone wipes/cleans the aluminium off of the faces of the silicon crystals and exposes them. As the soft hone exposes the silicon it also slightly abrades the aluminium in between the silicon crystals essentially making a surface comprised of peaks/plateaus (silicon) and valleys (aluminium). These peaks/plateaus and valleys make for a good surface for oil retention and have adequate roughness to allow rings to seat to the bores, when done to correct specs of roughness that is. This third and final honing stage leaves the bores at their final specifications and ready to accept pistons and rings and it is absolutely critical that the surface be at the proper finish of about 0.5-1 microns of silicon protrusion. Getting the surface at the proper finish requires using the proper abrasive used at the proper speed and for the proper amount of time per bore, then checking the finish with a profilometer(the remaining ~50% of the material is removed in this process).

I can understand people's thoughts on sleeves as being a better alternative to going with a proper Alusil honing process, which many shops can not do to any degree of confidence. People and machine shops are familiar with sleeves and feel more comfortable working with them. Most (but not all) veteran machinists are not used to working with these newer alloy's since they have only recently caught on to the degree that people are bringing them to machine shops for modification/repair. Couple all of this with the fact that people generally think of iron as strong and aluminium as weak and the consensus is to sleeve the block as soon as any engine work is done.

One major drawback I see with sleeves in the S65 is heat transfer is greatly reduced when going from an aluminium bore to a cast iron liner (Alusil conducts heat at a rate 400% higher than that of cast iron). Since the S65 is very sensitive to knock, and knock is usually a result of higher cylinder temperatures, any means a person can take to get rid of heat will benefit the engine by means of additional timing and reduced detonation risk. Sleeves may be good, but I have yet to see the S65 block itself fail without a rod first failing and going through the side of it. Personally I don't think anyone has gotten to the HP celling of the block casting yet and I would like to see it pushed harder before people just start doing sleeves out of fear.

Thanks for the reply with the link. By looking at VAC's shop pictures and technical info on the website I can tell that it is an extremely reputable shop that has a good staff and excellent equipment. You guys may very well be building stronger S65's for high boost applications by installing sleeves, but, some people like myself would like the option of keeping the Alusil block intact. I am very interested in building a stroker for my car much along the lines of what you guys have done with this one (Stroker crank, larger bore, cams, valve springs & retainers and possibly some head work) but I won't want the block sleeved. If you guys have the ability to properly bore and hone the Alusil block to factory tolerances and get me the MAHLE Alusil pistons in the proper dimensions we may be able to do business in the near future.
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      09-03-2012, 07:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Their seems to be some confusion on what Alusil and Nikasil actually are.

Nikasil is indeed a silicon-carbide coating that is electrostaticly plated to aluminium cylinder bores to make for a wearing surface that an aluminium piston can run on with no liner required. Nikasil is an extremely tough and reliable coating for a cylinder bore but many manufacturers went away from using it in North American markets during the 90s due to the fact that it didn't deal well with our high sulphur fuels and would prematurely wear as a result of it. Nikasil is a trademark of MAHLE!

Alusil is NOT a coating, it is a hypereutectic Aluminium-Silicon Alloy (Al17Si4CuMg or A390). Alusil is composed mostly of Aluminium (78%) and Silicon (17%) with the remainder of the alloy being copper and magnesium. When an Alusil block is cast the silicon crystals precipitate evenly through the alloy upon solidification.
ALUSIL is a trademark of Kolbenschmidt Pierburg AG when spelt with all capital letters, however the acronym Alusil refers to any eutectic or hypereutectic aluminium silicon alloy with 16-18% silicon.

When boring/honing an Alusil block a three step process is used.

1): The cylinders are bored using a boring bar to within a few thousandths of an inch.
2): The cylinders are honed with a hone using a traditional style hard abrasive stone and taken to a smooth finish (~50% of the material is removed in this nature).
3): The cylinders are honed again using a soft honing stone. The abrasive is generally either SiC or corundum bonded to the backing plate in an elastic medium (There are also felt honing stones available that are meant to be used in conjunction with an abrasive compound similar to a valve lapping compound, the compound is to be applied to both the bore and the felt hone. These felt hones are generally marketed as a lower cost alternative for machine shops that see only a limited number of alusil engines per year). This elastic honing stone wipes/cleans the aluminium off of the faces of the silicon crystals and exposes them. As the soft hone exposes the silicon it also slightly abrades the aluminium in between the silicon crystals essentially making a surface comprised of peaks/plateaus (silicon) and valleys (aluminium). These peaks/plateaus and valleys make for a good surface for oil retention and have adequate roughness to allow rings to seat to the bores, when done to correct specs of roughness that is. This third and final honing stage leaves the bores at their final specifications and ready to accept pistons and rings and it is absolutely critical that the surface be at the proper finish of about 0.5-1 microns of silicon protrusion. Getting the surface at the proper finish requires using the proper abrasive used at the proper speed and for the proper amount of time per bore, then checking the finish with a profilometer(the remaining ~50% of the material is removed in this process).

I can understand people's thoughts on sleeves as being a better alternative to going with a proper Alusil honing process, which many shops can not do to any degree of confidence. People and machine shops are familiar with sleeves and feel more comfortable working with them. Most (but not all) veteran machinists are not used to working with these newer alloy's since they have only recently caught on to the degree that people are bringing them to machine shops for modification/repair. Couple all of this with the fact that people generally think of iron as strong and aluminium as weak and the consensus is to sleeve the block as soon as any engine work is done.

One major drawback I see with sleeves in the S65 is heat transfer is greatly reduced when going from an aluminium bore to a cast iron liner (Alusil conducts heat at a rate 400% higher than that of cast iron). Since the S65 is very sensitive to knock, and knock is usually a result of higher cylinder temperatures, any means a person can take to get rid of heat will benefit the engine by means of additional timing and reduced detonation risk. Sleeves may be good, but I have yet to see the S65 block itself fail without a rod first failing and going through the side of it. Personally I don't think anyone has gotten to the HP celling of the block casting yet and I would like to see it pushed harder before people just start doing sleeves out of fear.

Thanks for the reply with the link. By looking at VAC's shop pictures and technical info on the website I can tell that it is an extremely reputable shop that has a good staff and excellent equipment. You guys may very well be building stronger S65's for high boost applications by installing sleeves, but, some people like myself would like the option of keeping the Alusil block intact. I am very interested in building a stroker for my car much along the lines of what you guys have done with this one (Stroker crank, larger bore, cams, valve springs & retainers and possibly some head work) but I won't want the block sleeved. If you guys have the ability to properly bore and hone the Alusil block to factory tolerances and get me the MAHLE Alusil pistons in the proper dimensions we may be able to do business in the near future.
Great info,thanks for posting !
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      09-03-2012, 08:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Their seems to be some confusion on what Alusil and Nikasil actually are.
There is no confusion - we know the difference between the 2 (lol). We have been dealing with Alusil and Nikasil for a long time

Quote:
I can understand people's thoughts on sleeves as being a better alternative to going with a proper Alusil honing process, which many shops can not do to any degree of confidence. People and machine shops are familiar with sleeves and feel more comfortable working with them. Most (but not all) veteran machinists are not used to working with these newer alloy's since they have only recently caught on to the degree that people are bringing them to machine shops for modification/repair.
BMW enthusiasts started chatting about Nikasil/Alusil in the M60 days. Nothing recent about the M60 For reference, we have been building BMW engines in house since the 1980s.

Quote:
Couple all of this with the fact that people generally think of iron as strong and aluminium as weak and the consensus is to sleeve the block as soon as any engine work is done.
In our experience, people who actually pay the money and buy engines do not have such a simple process. Most of our clients are racers who push the cars really hard and based on their actual hands on experience they choose the best solution for their needs.

Quote:
One major drawback I see with sleeves in the S65 is heat transfer is greatly reduced when going from an aluminium bore to a cast iron liner (Alusil conducts heat at a rate 400% higher than that of cast iron). Since the S65 is very sensitive to knock, and knock is usually a result of higher cylinder temperatures, any means a person can take to get rid of heat will benefit the engine by means of additional timing and reduced detonation risk.
How many nikasil/alusil engines have you built/sleeved? How many sleeves have you supplied to people with these engines? We have done a bunch .

Quote:
Sleeves may be good, but I have yet to see the S65 block itself fail without a rod first failing and going through the side of it. Personally I don't think anyone has gotten to the HP celling of the block casting yet and I would like to see it pushed harder before people just start doing sleeves out of fear
In our experience, people don't do sleeves out of fear. They make the choice based on actual experience.

Quote:
some people like myself would like the option of keeping the Alusil block intact. I am very interested in building a stroker for my car much along the lines of what you guys have done with this one (Stroker crank, larger bore, cams, valve springs & retainers and possibly some head work) but I won't want the block sleeved. If you guys have the ability to properly bore and hone the Alusil block to factory tolerances and get me the MAHLE Alusil pistons in the proper dimensions we may be able to do business in the near future.
Call when you are ready, we can work up a quote for whatever you wish If you did not know, we are the largest global stocking dealer of BMW specific engine components.
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      09-03-2012, 09:28 AM   #18
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Great info in here. Love it when BMRLVR comes to play, always learning something
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      09-03-2012, 10:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klammer View Post
Great info in here. Love it when BMRLVR comes to play, always learning something
Keith - you need this stroker!
I do
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      09-03-2012, 12:06 PM   #20
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The more I learn about the S65, THE BETTER. If I'm reading BMRLVR correctly, this is an extremely stong, bulletproof motor in stock form. I thought this already but confirmation is always nice. Thanks guys, good read.
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      09-03-2012, 12:13 PM   #21
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We are in love with the S65, trust me. We hammer our 650hp '08 E92 (with bone stock engine) prob more than anyone and it just keeps on ticking.
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      09-03-2012, 12:27 PM   #22
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Thanks again for another good reply Mike!

To answer your question, I haven't built any Alusil engines but have built some Nikasil engines for Yamaha snowmobiles and motorcycles about 10 years ago when I used to ride.

My area of expertise now is heavy duty diesel engines which I work on basically every day. These diesels do run liners (sleeves), however they are a wet liner. The wet liner is directly in contact with the coolant and sealed to the block with o-rings.

My reasoning for the detailed post about Alusil was because you didn't mention in the thread or on your site anywhere that you guys machine alusil blocks and you don't list Mahle as one of the vendors that you use.

I am sure when it comes to sleeving BMW engines you guys are probably the most experienced shop I have heard of (trust me I searched after first reading the thread) and I trust that your workmanship is top notch.

As for the heat transfer comments of mine and your rebuttal questioning my experience and asking how many Alusil/Nikasil blocks I have sleeved, that is irrelevant. The heat transfer rates are basic metallurgy, it makes no difference how many engines you have done, Alusil conducts heat at 400% greater rate than cast iron period, end of story. I shouldn't have to tell you the benefits of a cooler running cylinder bore, since there are many. The main reason for hot rodders doing aluminium heads today and in the past besides reduced weight, has always been the ability to run at least a point higher compression on pump gas due to the increased heat transfer ability of the aluminium. This was especially important in days gone by when there was no knock control on cars.

My intentions are not to discredit VAC or take anything away from this engine build thread, I would just like to know that you guys are able and willing to do machining on Alusil blocks, I saw from the photos that you have a boring/honing machine that is more than capable of doing the job. If you are willing and able, we can talk about building me my stroker!

Now hurry up and get this thing on the DYNO, I wanna see what it puts down for power
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1994 Euro E36 M3 Sedan - Daytona Violet/Mulberry:LINK!!!
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4.4, 4.6, s65, stroker, vac motorsports

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