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      08-28-2012, 08:52 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Yea I was comparing into HPFP failure on a 335..same symptoms to a tee.
HPFP's are only on DI engines and the S65 is not DI. It is not the same at all!

Has belt slip ever been an issue with these kits?
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      08-28-2012, 09:05 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
HPFP's are only on DI engines and the S65 is not DI. It is not the same at all!
LOL..thx I know.. but it could be some other fueling issue..not pump..anyways looks like some on here seem to know what it is and arent saying..just appeared similiar from the video..whatever
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      08-28-2012, 09:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
LOL..thx I know.. but it could be some other fueling issue..not pump..anyways looks like some on here seem to know what it is and arent saying..just appeared similiar from the video..whatever
I wasn't trying to be condescending, just making sure that everyone realized that a HPFP setup is totally different from a car with Port Fuel Injection.

The thing is that with an engine like the S65 there are a lot of things that it could be since so many systems are monitored and controlled. Data logging numerous parameters as well installing a boost gauge (not sure how high the MAP sensor will read) would definitely be a good way to start troubleshooting it.
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      08-28-2012, 09:55 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Fuel pumps going bad in the M3 ?
I agree I dont think its the fuel pump.
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      08-28-2012, 10:00 AM   #27
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I took the injectors out this morning and ECU. Sending them back to ESS.

Going to get the ECU re flashed and Injectors replaced. Hopefully this will fix the issue.

I checked this morning for any leaks or air filter issues and I didn't see any.

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      08-28-2012, 11:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgallo9980 View Post
I took the injectors out this morning and ECU. Sending them back to ESS.

Going to get the ECU re flashed and Injectors replaced. Hopefully this will fix the issue.

I checked this morning for any leaks or air filter issues and I didn't see any.

Injectors would be a fueling issue..keep us updated OP
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      08-28-2012, 01:36 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama
Ya whoever said it was the fuel pump clearly has no clue about how a car works. Its impossible for a fuel pump to be only sputtering in higher gears as the lowest gears at high rpms put much more load on the car and OP said it was not happening in 1 and 2.

So if it were happening under more load and in all gears, especially the first 2, than its consistent with fuel pump but since it is not, there is a zero percent chance its the fuel system.
Sorry man that's not the way it works. Anybody whose built a stage 3 will tell you that's not how it works. In higher gears with 600+ whp the fuel pump does run out and waver. In lower gears it doesn't because the car isn't in those gears too long. In higher gears, you're in those gears longer so the fuel pump can't provide enough gas to sustain combustion. The fuel pump eventually loses pressure, the engine goes lean and begins to sputter. Doesn't happen in lower gears, only higher gears because the fuel pump can't keep up.
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      08-28-2012, 02:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
Ya whoever said it was the fuel pump clearly has no clue about how a car works. Its impossible for a fuel pump to be only sputtering in higher gears as the lowest gears at high rpms put much more load on the car and OP said it was not happening in 1 and 2.

So if it were happening under more load and in all gears, especially the first 2, than its consistent with fuel pump but since it is not, there is a zero percent chance its the fuel system.

Its a turbo issue or tuning at this point
In the OP's case it would be supercharger not turbo. i say this humbly
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      08-28-2012, 02:25 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
You had to ruin it... didn't you ?!
sorry couldn't resist
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      08-28-2012, 02:38 PM   #32
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Wait. Is it a K&N supercharger? The one with 400lbs of boost?
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      08-28-2012, 04:03 PM   #33
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See if all your injectors are in.. Seems like a quick fix, dont worry.
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      08-28-2012, 04:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium
Quote:
Originally Posted by Let It Rein
Wait. Is it a K&N supercharger? The one with 400lbs of boost?
You can only achieve the 400 pounds of boost if you don't connect the oil cooler...
I removed mine along with my air filter to save weight.
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      08-29-2012, 12:44 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Sorry man that's not the way it works. Anybody whose built a stage 3 will tell you that's not how it works. In higher gears with 600+ whp the fuel pump does run out and waver. In lower gears it doesn't because the car isn't in those gears too long. In higher gears, you're in those gears longer so the fuel pump can't provide enough gas to sustain combustion. The fuel pump eventually loses pressure, the engine goes lean and begins to sputter. Doesn't happen in lower gears, only higher gears because the fuel pump can't keep up.
I would like to add a little to this if I may....... Your description is spot on but I would like to get in to a little more detail:

The pump doesn't lose pressure, the flow of the pump is not enough to maintain the pressure in the rail. Pumps don't make pressure, pressure is created by the restriction to flow in a hydraulic system (yes even a fuel system is considered a hydraulic system). The pressure in a port fuel injection system is controlled by the fuel pressure regulator.

Once the fuel demand of the engine is more than the pump volume can deliver, pressure drops off. The in tank fuel pump runs constantly and the excess flow of fuel is returned to the tank via the return line through the fuel pressure regulator. The reason for the issue developing in the higher gears is exactly like you explained above, longer time in a gear more time the injectors are in a high duty cycle (more flow) condition hence the pump volume not being able to keep up with the flow requirement and pressure in the system drops off.

Basically in first gear it probably takes 2.5-3.5 seconds to get to redline, then you shift and the pump has some time to catch up during the shift and as the RPM are dropping, second gear may take 4.5-5.5 seconds to reach redline and then the pump again gets a chance to catch up again. Once you get to third, fourth, fifth, and sixth gear the time in the gear gets progressively longer and the fuel demand is even higher due to extra time in gear. The other thing to realize is that the higher the RPM of the engine the higher duty cycle of the injectors so the flow issue gets compounded by both time in the gear and the time at the higher RPMs.

Another possibility may also be that "one" injector may be out of spec with regards to flow, and hence that one cylinder may be knocking. If the DME/ECM is sensing knock from that one cylinder it is going to be pulling timing on all eight cylinders and that "could" be the power loss the OP is feeling. I would assume this is the reason that Roman wanted the OP to send back his injectors and DME. They most likely are going to read the adaptive memory that is stored in the DME, flow bench all of the injectors, and go from there. If the issue still exists after that then further troubleshooting will be required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3alabama View Post
Ya whoever said it was the fuel pump clearly has no clue about how a car works. Its impossible for a fuel pump to be only sputtering in higher gears as the lowest gears at high rpms put much more load on the car and OP said it was not happening in 1 and 2.

So if it were happening under more load and in all gears, especially the first 2, than its consistent with fuel pump but since it is not, there is a zero percent chance its the fuel system.

Its a turbo issue or tuning at this point
You should make sure your brains are loaded before you shoot your mouth off!!!

Maybe the OP should get a lighter air filter!?!?
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Last edited by BMRLVR; 08-29-2012 at 01:09 AM.
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      08-30-2012, 09:27 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I would like to add a little to this if I may....... Your description is spot on but I would like to get in to a little more detail:

The pump doesn't lose pressure, the flow of the pump is not enough to maintain the pressure in the rail. Pumps don't make pressure, pressure is created by the restriction to flow in a hydraulic system (yes even a fuel system is considered a hydraulic system). The pressure in a port fuel injection system is controlled by the fuel pressure regulator.

Once the fuel demand of the engine is more than the pump volume can deliver, pressure drops off. The in tank fuel pump runs constantly and the excess flow of fuel is returned to the tank via the return line through the fuel pressure regulator. The reason for the issue developing in the higher gears is exactly like you explained above, longer time in a gear more time the injectors are in a high duty cycle (more flow) condition hence the pump volume not being able to keep up with the flow requirement and pressure in the system drops off.

Basically in first gear it probably takes 2.5-3.5 seconds to get to redline, then you shift and the pump has some time to catch up during the shift and as the RPM are dropping, second gear may take 4.5-5.5 seconds to reach redline and then the pump again gets a chance to catch up again. Once you get to third, fourth, fifth, and sixth gear the time in the gear gets progressively longer and the fuel demand is even higher due to extra time in gear. The other thing to realize is that the higher the RPM of the engine the higher duty cycle of the injectors so the flow issue gets compounded by both time in the gear and the time at the higher RPMs.

Another possibility may also be that "one" injector may be out of spec with regards to flow, and hence that one cylinder may be knocking. If the DME/ECM is sensing knock from that one cylinder it is going to be pulling timing on all eight cylinders and that "could" be the power loss the OP is feeling. I would assume this is the reason that Roman wanted the OP to send back his injectors and DME. They most likely are going to read the adaptive memory that is stored in the DME, flow bench all of the injectors, and go from there. If the issue still exists after that then further troubleshooting will be required.



You should make sure your brains are loaded before you shoot your mouth off!!!

Maybe the OP should get a lighter air filter!?!?
+1, Great post. Wanted to add one thing, the DME can individually retard timing if it senses knock, per cylinder. It could be pulling timing in all eight, but not in all cases. Now time to watch the video.

Ok... after watching.. I would check the vehicles adaptations and see if anything strange is going on there. It almost seems like it's in a torque limited state, but the ESS S/C file raises these limits so theoretically it shouldn't be getting remotely close to them. I need to reread above, but any engine faults stored? Even if the SES is not illuminated there may be some codes in there.

OP, good luck in getting this resolved.
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 08-30-2012 at 09:33 AM.
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      08-30-2012, 12:06 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
+1, Great post. Wanted to add one thing, the DME can individually retard timing if it senses knock, per cylinder. It could be pulling timing in all eight, but not in all cases. Now time to watch the video.

Ok... after watching.. I would check the vehicles adaptations and see if anything strange is going on there. It almost seems like it's in a torque limited state, but the ESS S/C file raises these limits so theoretically it shouldn't be getting remotely close to them. I need to reread above, but any engine faults stored? Even if the SES is not illuminated there may be some codes in there.

OP, good luck in getting this resolved.
I ran a Diag on the car and got no codes back which is strange if there was knocking I should have got a code.

ESS has my DME and Injectors I should have them back soon. I'm hoping with replacing the injectors and software update that this will fix the issue.

If not then Ill have to test the boost and do some further checking.
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      08-30-2012, 12:17 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgallo9980 View Post
I ran a Diag on the car and got no codes back which is strange if there was knocking I should have got a code.

ESS has my DME and Injectors I should have them back soon. I'm hoping with replacing the injectors and software update that this will fix the issue.

If not then Ill have to test the boost and do some further checking.
Didn't seem like the car was knocking. Keep us updated and good luck.
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      08-30-2012, 03:22 PM   #39
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this may not be your case but is worth mentioning. Knock sensors are sooooo sensitive that you may not hear audible knock (if you do it's prob too late anyways).. Being that each cyliner has individual sensors, timing can be pulled from one cylinder and you wouldn't realize it. there is also "phantom" knock which can be caused by harmonics that acutally give the knock sensors a false reading and cause the symptoms mentioned. My first start would be the simple things; plugs, injectors, take a look at the fuel pump and filter.. You really need to do some datalogging to see what is going on as everything is just speculation at this point
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      08-30-2012, 04:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3an View Post
this may not be your case but is worth mentioning. Knock sensors are sooooo sensitive that you may not hear audible knock (if you do it's prob too late anyways).. Being that each cyliner has individual sensors, timing can be pulled from one cylinder and you wouldn't realize it. there is also "phantom" knock which can be caused by harmonics that acutally give the knock sensors a false reading and cause the symptoms mentioned. My first start would be the simple things; plugs, injectors, take a look at the fuel pump and filter.. You really need to do some datalogging to see what is going on as everything is just speculation at this point
I would have to disagree here as I have heard audible knock on many occasions, even with stock software targets for ignition timing and stock knock sensitivity settings. Hearing knock doesn't mean that it's too late, unless we're talking about extremes. I see the knocking more in high load/lower RPM situations, more than full throttle, high RPM.

This car doesn't have conventional knock sensors to 'listen' for knock, rather, it measures plug electrode resistance to determine if there was an issue during the cumbustion process.

I don't think this is a knocking issue. Checking the adaptation values might provide further insight into what is happening, and of course, as you said, datalogging would be a big plus.
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      08-30-2012, 11:40 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
I would have to disagree here as I have heard audible knock on many occasions, even with stock software targets for ignition timing and stock knock sensitivity settings. Hearing knock doesn't mean that it's too late, unless we're talking about extremes. I see the knocking more in high load/lower RPM situations, more than full throttle, high RPM.

This car doesn't have conventional knock sensors to 'listen' for knock, rather, it measures plug electrode resistance to determine if there was an issue during the cumbustion process.

I don't think this is a knocking issue. Checking the adaptation values might provide further insight into what is happening, and of course, as you said, datalogging would be a big plus.

To clarify I agree; the point is that newer cars knock sensors are very sensitive and while I have heard a knock or two w/ the s65 you're less inclined to as the ECU will pull timing fast. OPs' description almost sounds like a fuel cut at high rpm, although I haven;t watched the vid so anyhting I say is speculation at this point. And yes, I have also heard knock sometimes on these cars when lugging the motor a little. A little more than acutally feels comfortable but it is what is. Only time wil tell also as these new "ionic current" sensors are tested.
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      08-30-2012, 11:57 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
+1, Great post. Wanted to add one thing, the DME can individually retard timing if it senses knock, per cylinder. It could be pulling timing in all eight, but not in all cases.
Isn't the timing target a straight across x∘ BTDC?

I do believe you that the MSS60 can individually control spark timing in each of the 8 cylinders, however if 1 cylinder consistantly had knock I am sure the DME would eventually pull timing straight across the board. No?
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      09-01-2012, 12:16 PM   #43
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Perfect!

I got the new injectors and my DME back yesterday. Installed everything back into the car runs perfect now. Runs better then ever now!

I want to thank Roman and all of ESS great group of people over there. Customer service is unreal.

Also want to thank the guys in this forum too for all your help!!!
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      09-01-2012, 12:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgallo9980 View Post
I got the new injectors and my DME back yesterday. Installed everything back into the car runs perfect now. Runs better then ever now!

I want to thank Roman and all of ESS great group of people over there. Customer service is unreal.

Also want to thank the guys in this forum too for all your help!!!
Enjoy in good health!
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