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      08-26-2012, 10:26 AM   #23
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That's exactly it! Too clinical would be the best way to describe it for me too...
That's what people say about the GTR also. High capability but a very "clinical" or "sterile" experience.
What a bunch of BS. People who say This often do not even own one. I own both and can tell you that the GT-R is as raw as they come! Like the M3, GT-R has tons of character and is exciting to drive. "Clinical" can be used to describe a Volvo but using that adjective on a Porsche or Godzilla is simply inappropriate.

I think what people are trying to say to describe GT-R and Cayman/Boxster is that they are PRECISE. The lesser Porsches are great fun to drive but lack brutal power to make them exhilarating to drive. After all, we drive fast cars to go FAST. GT-R does both and does exactly what the drivers wants it to do. It's a great combination that will stand the test of time. RWD/Front engine cars are fun to toss around, but what would you want to drive if you have a million dollar bet on the racetrack?

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      08-26-2012, 11:43 AM   #24
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What a bunch of BS. People who say This often do not even own one. I own both and can tell you that the GT-R is as raw as they come! .

but what would you want to drive if you have a million dollar bet on the racetrack?
Pharm, didn't realize you took delivery of your GT-R, congrats, and post pictures! That being said, "raw" is certainly one of those loaded terms that often creates wars on forums. Everyone has their own perception of "raw", I think most people would argue that raw is typically equated to bare bones, less is more school. Whereas with the GT-R, it's more of MORE. It's a hyper/super/amazing car that uses amazing technology and stunning power to demolish tracks and road courses alike.

You don't need to defend the GT-R here, if anyone doubts the GT-R, they need to do their own homework.
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      08-26-2012, 12:08 PM   #25
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Pharm, didn't realize you took delivery of your GT-R, congrats, and post pictures! That being said, "raw" is certainly one of those loaded terms that often creates wars on forums. Everyone has their own perception of "raw", I think most people would argue that raw is typically equated to bare bones, less is more school. Whereas with the GT-R, it's more of MORE. It's a hyper/super/amazing car that uses amazing technology and stunning power to demolish tracks and road courses alike.

You don't need to defend the GT-R here, if anyone doubts the GT-R, they need to do their own homework.
Thanks, Nine. What I meant when I said "raw" is that the GT-R doesn't make any effort to cover up sounds from the road, transmission, engine, and all the good stuff that make driving FUN! When I was researching the car, I read a bunch of internet BS, including comments from stupid journalists, who say that the GT-R has no soul, is too "clinical" in the way it goes about its business. There is nothing clinical or soul-less about any automobile that can complete the Nurburgring in under 7 and a half minutes. I wasn't trying to defend the GT-R, what irritated me is the fact that the OP wrote a couple of great comparisons between cars that we all like to drive or to own, then passes off a "rumor" about the GT-R being "clinical", all without actually ownership experience. That took away all his credibility in my book.

While I am at it, might as well mention that, like many BMW enthusiasts I am getting more and more pessimistic about the future of BMW M. M used to stand for something very visceral and epitomizes the feeling of enthusiasts who want to derive significant amount of joy from driving. Now "they" are putting in tons of sound insulation, and replacing it with recorded engine/exhaust sounds, and telling M loyalists that turbo is the way to go because it is better for gas mileage and the environment. The plain truth is that BMW has succumbed to the market of fake enthusiasts who could care less about the racing heritage of the M cars and put luxury, power, and comfort above all else. NA engines could never keep up with today (and tomorrow's) monsters without forced induction. People who developed the GT-R make no apologies for taking advantage of the best technology they have available to build the fastest car they can possibly build. At least they stayed true to their philosophy instead of trying to pretend to be old-school engineers. E9X M3 is the last great M car we will have from BMW. Enjoy it because there will be no more.

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      08-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #26
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[/i][/b]

Definitely true, but the RS4 can maintain a good amount of its performance capability in bad weather, be it rain or snow, while the M3 gets seriously hindered. If you live in an area where this is not an issue, the RS4 loses it advantages, but if weather is a factor, the RS4 comes out ahead as an only car.
I have to agree, If you can only have one car and you live in an area where you get winter, the RS4 would definitely come out ahead. Since The RS4 is no longer sold in North America, that puts the M3 back to the best car, if you can only own one.

The new RS4 or RS5 would be great cars to own too since they still have wonderful NA V8 engines, but, the fact that Audi is not selling the new RS4 in North America, and, since they are no longer putting manual transmissions in their RS cars (except for the TTRS) is a deal breaker for me.
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      08-26-2012, 12:43 PM   #27
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Nice comparo to the 991S. One thing I don't see myself wanting, is a harsher ride. Now I know I can stop lusting after the 991 so much

Imagine just how good the F80 M3 will be considering all the likely improvements.
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      08-26-2012, 02:16 PM   #28
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Thanks, Nine. What I meant when I said "raw" is that the GT-R doesn't make any effort to cover up sounds from the road, transmission, engine, and all the good stuff that make driving FUN! When I was researching the car, I read a bunch of internet BS, including comments from stupid journalists, who say that the GT-R has no soul, is too "clinical" in the way it goes about its business. There is nothing clinical or soul-less about any automobile that can complete the Nurburgring in under 7 and a half minutes. I wasn't trying to defend the GT-R, what irritated me is the fact that the OP wrote a couple of great comparisons between cars that we all like to drive or to own, then passes off a "rumor" about the GT-R being "clinical", all without actually ownership experience. That took away all his credibility in my book.

While I am at it, might as well mention that, like many BMW enthusiasts I am getting more and more pessimistic about the future of BMW M. M used to stand for something very visceral and epitomizes the feeling of enthusiasts who want to derive significant amount of joy from driving. Now "they" are putting in tons of sound insulation, and replacing it with recorded engine/exhaust sounds, and telling M loyalists that turbo is the way to go because it is better for gas mileage and the environment. The plain truth is that BMW has succumbed to the market of fake enthusiasts who could care less about the racing heritage of the M cars and put luxury, power, and comfort above all else. NA engines could never keep up with today (and tomorrow's) monsters without forced induction. People who developed the GT-R make no apologies for taking advantage of the best technology they have available to build the fastest car they can possibly build. At least they stayed true to their philosophy instead of trying to pretend to be old-school engineers. E9X M3 is the last great M car we will have from BMW. Enjoy it because there will be no more.
I have had about 4 hours behind the wheel of a GTR. In fact I drove it 3 times before choosing my M3 over it. Not questioning its performance capabilities at all, but some people are not just looking for the fastest car around a track.

I don't share this "clinical" or "sterile" view. I was merely pointing out what others have said. I don't feel this way about the Nissan, or the Porsche.

The are things that kept me from getting a GTR were:

1. Looks are so-so to my eyes. By comparison, I LOVE the looks of the M3.
2. Ride is too harsh for my needs.
3. Interior design looks very piecemeal and not cleanly thought out
4. Interior materials are cheap. Too bad you can't get the Egoist Edition in the U.S.
5. The noises are most unpleasant, from the clunking of the transmission to the excessive whirring from the turbos.

That said, if I had the million dollar bet that you speak of, then yes, I would certainly take a GTR over my M3 or any 911 except the turbo S.
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      08-26-2012, 02:30 PM   #29
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I have had about 4 hours behind the wheel of a GTR. In fact I drove it 3 times before choosing my M3 over it. Not questioning its performance capabilities at all, but some people are not just looking for the fastest car around a track.

I don't share this "clinical" or "sterile" view. I was merely pointing out what others have said. I don't feel this way about the Nissan, or the Porsche.

The are things that kept me from getting a GTR were:

1. Looks are so-so to my eyes. By comparison, I LOVE the looks of the M3.
2. Ride is too harsh for my needs.
3. Interior design looks very piecemeal and not cleanly thought out
4. Interior materials are cheap. Too bad you can't get the Egoist Edition in the U.S.
5. The noises are most unpleasant, from the clunking of the transmission to the excessive whirring from the turbos.

That said, if I had the million dollar bet that you speak of, then yes, I would certainly take a GTR over my M3 or any 911 except the turbo S.
Your logical, data-driven comments are highly appreciated. All your points are subjective and what is shit to one person can be gold to the next. One thing I disagree with and I think majority of BMW owners will be on my side, and that is the GT-R has real cup holders instead of that crappy thing that stick out at the passenger's knee and cause drinks to spill if your passenger should be so careless and hit it with a drink in it. That is not good interior design. I took my 70 year-old mother for a ride in my GT-R and one comment she made was, "this car makes feel safer to go fast in than the BMW".
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      08-26-2012, 02:59 PM   #30
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Sorry, the inteior design/layout of a GT-R is absymal. Looks like a hodge podge of three different cars thrown into one and what the hell is up with the center console angled in three different directions. Not saying the materials are all that bad but Jesus Christ that layout is terrible.
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      08-26-2012, 03:01 PM   #31
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Your logical, data-driven comments are highly appreciated. All your points are subjective and what is shit to one person can be gold to the next. One thing I disagree with and I think majority of BMW owners will be on my side, and that is the GT-R has real cup holders instead of that crappy thing that stick out at the passenger's knee and cause drinks to spill if your passenger should be so careless and hit it with a drink in it. That is not good interior design. I took my 70 year-old mother for a ride in my GT-R and one comment she made was, "this car makes feel safer to go fast in than the BMW".
Whoa you already got it? Post pics!


I still own my RS4 and love it completely. I want to keep it long as possible, but having recently driven an E90 M3, I have to say it is a fantastic machine. You are on point about the shifter feeling more "solid"in the RS4, I found the M3s to be slightly squishy in comparison. But it's easier the drive the M3 smoothly and my god it has some great feedback.
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      08-26-2012, 03:24 PM   #32
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Checking out the Porsche configurator makes me wonder which model OP drove. There are so many chassis options. In addition to the base setup, there is a choice of:
-PASM
-PASM Sport
-PDCC
-PDCC with PASM Sport

and any one of these can be combined with a package including dynamic engine mounts.
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      08-26-2012, 04:34 PM   #33
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Checking out the Porsche configurator makes me wonder which model OP drove. There are so many chassis options. In addition to the base setup, there is a choice of:
-PASM
-PASM Sport
-PDCC
-PDCC with PASM Sport

and any one of these can be combined with a package including dynamic engine mounts.
Had PDCC and PASM. PASM is basically EDC. PDCC is active roll stabilization. I have that feature on my Cayenne. Makes a HUGE difference on an SUV.
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      08-26-2012, 04:48 PM   #34
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Your logical, data-driven comments are highly appreciated. All your points are subjective and what is shit to one person can be gold to the next. One thing I disagree with and I think majority of BMW owners will be on my side, and that is the GT-R has real cup holders instead of that crappy thing that stick out at the passenger's knee and cause drinks to spill if your passenger should be so careless and hit it with a drink in it. That is not good interior design. I took my 70 year-old mother for a ride in my GT-R and one comment she made was, "this car makes feel safer to go fast in than the BMW".
The GTR is quintessential Japanese it its design philosophy in that it is completely utilitarian, and not at all artistic. So, yes, I believe the cup holders work well. In fact, the entire car is completely masterful in its execution as an instrument for ultimate speed. It fails in the artistic execution of things. Most high-end cars give at least some thought to this.

For me, the subjective is just as important, if not more than the objective. I am not a pro race car driver so obtaining the fastest lap times on a given track is not even remotely important to me. I drive for the fun of it. That obviously includes a certain amount of absolute performance capability in a car (which the M3 does provide), but also, the looks, the feel, the sounds, aesthetically pleasing environment, comforts, etc.

My other life long hobby has been alpine skiing. I really couldn't care less about racing skiis, or which skiis have had the best success on the World Cup Circuit. I like to ski wide open bowls, trees, and powder and bumps. Sure I want a high level ski, but the fastest ski on the market just wouldn't suit the type of skiing that gives me the most enjoyment.

Still, for those who are hell bent on owning the biggest and baddest, the GTR certainly is up there. And when did this turn into another GTR thread anyway !!??
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      08-26-2012, 05:02 PM   #35
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"Clinical" can be used to describe a Volvo but using that adjective on a Porsche or Godzilla is simply inappropriate.
Although I was one of the ones who thought the Porsches (I tried) were almost too clinical, so I guess that comment is also addressed at me.

Seriously though, we can't argue subjectivity. Some are going to find Porsches or the GT-R so good at certain things but almost too clinical in other ways... just like some are going to find the M3 doesn't have enough torque or whatever.

We're just sharing opinions...
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      08-26-2012, 05:08 PM   #36
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i absolutely love the new 991 but the price tag is steering me away from it as of now. Diff trading in the e92m3 for the newer m3/4variation when it comes out but would love to get into a prosche.
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      08-26-2012, 05:15 PM   #37
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The GTR is quintessential Japanese it its design philosophy in that it is completely utilitarian, and not at all artistic. So, yes, I believe the cup holders work well. In fact, the entire car is completely masterful in its execution as an instrument for ultimate speed. It fails in the artistic execution of things. Most high-end cars give at least some thought to this.

For me, the subjective is just as important, if not more than the objective. I am not a pro race car driver so obtaining the fastest lap times on a given track is not even remotely important to me. I drive for the fun of it. That obviously includes a certain amount of absolute performance capability in a car (which the M3 does provide), but also, the looks, the feel, the sounds, aesthetically pleasing environment, comforts, etc.

My other life long hobby has been alpine skiing. I really couldn't care less about racing skiis, or which skiis have had the best success on the World Cup Circuit. I like to ski wide open bowls, trees, and powder and bumps. Sure I want a high level ski, but the fastest ski on the market just wouldn't suit the type of skiing that gives me the most enjoyment.

Still, for those who are hell bent on owning the biggest and baddest, the GTR certainly is up there. And when did this turn into another GTR thread anyway !!??
The point of this thread is that our opinions and preference about cars (or for anything else for that matter) is just like an asshole - everyone has one. What is beauty to you is utilitarian to me and someone else. It's the same reason art is interpreted different by different people. Nothing wrong with that all, it's what makes the world a great place.

I salute all the artists and engineers who find a way to stay true to their own beliefs, yet able to make the compromises that are mandatory to make any car marketable. At this level the competition is fierce; to be able to squeeze out better performance from year to year and stay within reach of mere mortals like me is what I respect and admire about an engineering/marketing team.
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      08-26-2012, 05:18 PM   #38
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I personally can't get over the fact that the GT-R is a Nissan. I have never sat in a GT-R, but every other Nissan I have ever been in has been such a plastic piece of shit, and that is why I never considered it.

Same reason I never looked at a Zo6, now that I think of it.
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      08-26-2012, 05:21 PM   #39
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The GTR is quintessential Japanese it its design philosophy in that it is completely utilitarian, and not at all artistic. So, yes, I believe the cup holders work well. In fact, the entire car is completely masterful in its execution as an instrument for ultimate speed. It fails in the artistic execution of things. Most high-end cars give at least some thought to this.

For me, the subjective is just as important, if not more than the objective. I am not a pro race car driver so obtaining the fastest lap times on a given track is not even remotely important to me. I drive for the fun of it. That obviously includes a certain amount of absolute performance capability in a car (which the M3 does provide), but also, the looks, the feel, the sounds, aesthetically pleasing environment, comforts, etc.

My other life long hobby has been alpine skiing. I really couldn't care less about racing skiis, or which skiis have had the best success on the World Cup Circuit. I like to ski wide open bowls, trees, and powder and bumps. Sure I want a high level ski, but the fastest ski on the market just wouldn't suit the type of skiing that gives me the most enjoyment.

Still, for those who are hell bent on owning the biggest and baddest, the GTR certainly is up there. And when did this turn into another GTR thread anyway !!??
No offense to you, but your comment regarding the lack of artistry in Japanese design philophy exposes your ethnocentric outlook/ignorance of Asian art and culture. You might want to google Japanese art/philosophy sometime or read up on Japan in Wikipedia.
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      08-26-2012, 05:25 PM   #40
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I love the GT-R, but I don't need the diff noises for day to day driving.
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      08-26-2012, 05:51 PM   #41
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i absolutely love the new 991 but the price tag is steering me away from it as of now. Diff trading in the e92m3 for the newer m3/4variation when it comes out but would love to get into a prosche.
There was a lot of pent up demand for the new 911. I'll be really interested to see how well sales are sustained after the initial buys level off. They really did jack up the price.
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      08-26-2012, 05:57 PM   #42
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No offense to you, but your comment regarding the lack of artistry in Japanese design philophy exposes your ethnocentric outlook/ignorance of Asian art and culture. You might want to google Japanese art/philosophy sometime or read up on Japan in Wikipedia.
I knew that my statement might be open to this interpretation. Not saying there isn't artistry in Japan or any other Asian country. There certainly is. Much more, infact, than in many parts of western civilization.

There was actually a docmentary online a while back (sorry, forget the link) on the design philosophy behind the GTR and this is where I got my view on the utilitarian nature of the design and the idea that when it comes to scientific, and/or functional mechanical devices, etc, artistric impression really isn't a major consideration in the culture. So my view on this didn't come from anyone except from the people who designed the GTR.

Anyway, we could go on and on here. Subjectivity is just that. It is a phenomenal car for its intended purpose. That's just not what I was looking for.
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      08-26-2012, 06:35 PM   #43
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LarThal,
I really feel like getting an RS4 for my next winter DD. Since the '08 RS4's were the last ones to be imported in the USA, I really wanted to add that car in the stable for Lake Tahoe, Reno trips during the winter.

Not pretty sure if I can bare with the carbon build up problem and opening/cleaning the engine every 20K miles.

I've been lurking in the RS4 forums and all they found was a catch can or the recirculating unit as the solution. The latter does help, but only by a tad. Has anybody found a fix yet?
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      08-26-2012, 07:32 PM   #44
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Good review, although I very much disagree on two accounts. First, the steering in the 991 IS better than the M3 without question. It has almost gt3 levels of feedback at speed. It is still the best steering in the industry even though it is hard to compare electronic to hydraulic, but it is still superior here...and that is having been said with a few hours in a 991S.

And yes the 991 does blow away the m3. The new m3 will be lucky if it comes close to this performance when it comes out in another two years. The 991 is probably the single best all around performance car ever made. It is in a completely different ball game than the m3 in every objective aspect.
MT would seem to agree with you as well:

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