Julian Assange - Hero or Enemy?

[mob17]

Originally Posted by Templar

Apparently you do, just a different kind of story.

No im just looking at it from a neutral view, with no affiliation to any countries. Its logical what's happening.

[OldArmy]

Slowly but surely the full extent of this person's delusional world is revealed. Certainly, the conspiracy theorist must suffer from a version of insanity. It's like their actual and paranoid dream worlds are one and the same, overlayed. The good part is that they are permanently afraid of everything and everyone and that makes them more irritating than dangerous.

[carve]

Originally Posted by fourier

I'm always open to improving my understanding, and I'm not afraid to yield that I'm wrong; I understand that even if I am highly logical, rational, and analytical, it doesn't mean that I'm without fault. My ideal country is one in which the average intelligence is much higher than the current average (i.e., leave the stupid people to destroy themselves, and only take the intelligent ones after proving themselves), run by philosophers, scientists, and logicians, not politicians, only allowing people of intelligence and good moral character in. There is no place like this, and as long as there are greedy, war-mongering, oppressive, power seeking people, I don't see it happening.

/rant

So, where are you moving to?

Your ideal country sounds a bit like utopia, and a bit like fascism. How do you exile the undesirables? The only way I could see something like that work is in a large nation with a VERY minimalist federal and state government. Then, each city could run itself, almost like a city-state like Singapore or the old Venice. That way, one city could be communist, another Libertarian, another agrarian, another anarchist, another socialist, etc. etc. I don't see the communist ones surviving very long unless they're under, say, 150 people. The nucleus of these city states would have to be a wealthy rich guy who buys a huge swath of land, or a corporation of individuals who pool their resources to do the same. Competition would bring all the producers to the more free, libertarian city states for the most part, but then you'd have barbarian hordes made of the stupid and the criminal roaming the frontiers and hinterlands. Of course, they would probably turn to violence and pillage, in which case nearby city states threatened by the barbarians would probably band together, regardless of political affiliation, to put 'em down. You wouldn't want them to overthrow a city and have them use their resources and weapons against you.

Sounds like an interesting movie plot.

[Fox128i]

Originally Posted by mob17

A statement by "Al Quaeda"? Oh right that makes it all legit then doesn't it. That's no proof. Wheres the body? Saddam was killed in fron af an worldwide audience but Osama was mysteriously buried at sea. Hmm...

Do you really believe everything you read?

I see the point you are making and it's a valid argument. It do want to say had the US actually presented to us video or still images of said body, then there would be a whole new crop of folks crying foul about it being disrespectful, anti-Muslim, or something of the sort.

So you see, no matter what the US does at this point, someone is going to bitch about it. Not saying that's what you are doing, just pointing out the elephant in the room so to speak.

[carve]

9/11 government conspiracy hypothesis have been so thoroughly debunked that most advocates, at this point, are probably trolling.

LOL- he gives the bush administration too much credit. Even if it was a conspiracy, how is a plane load of Saudis trained in Afghanistan his go-to method for a reason to invade Iraq?

[mob17]

http://www.reprieve.org.uk

[mspeasl]

Originally Posted by mob17

Sigh. I just feel sorry for all the people who believe their government/media. There's no point in trying to convince people like you, you will never give yourself that chance to THINK for yourselves instead of accepting things straight away.

Why dont you imagine this: 9/11 happens in China and they think its us who did it, invade our country killing loads of innocent people along the way in their "War on Terror", for over 10 years. Meanwhile not having no proof of WMDs or this mysterious Osama (who the Chinese knew about before and dined with the family), and benefitting from our resources. Would you think somethings going on? Would you think somethings not fair? Of course you would.

But yeah, im a "whack-job" for not being a good citizen and believing this rubbish. Im just glad im not the only "whack-job". There are loads of "whack-jobs" in America, UK and worldwide.

And Pearl Harbor didn't happen in 1941 and the Americans didn't land on the Moon in 1969 either according to your way of thinking..?

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by Fox128i

I see the point you are making and it's a valid argument. It do want to say had the US actually presented to us video or still images of said body, then there would be a whole new crop of folks crying foul about it being disrespectful, anti-Muslim, or something of the sort.

So you see, no matter what the US does at this point, someone is going to bitch about it. Not saying that's what you are doing, just pointing out the elephant in the room so to speak.

At first I was a bit skeptical as well when no body was produced...
And, of course, a "statement" supposedly by them in Western Media is not proof either, it could be fabricated by the US government.

Then I realized, if they didnt get Bin Laden, then Al Quaeda would be very quick to plaster his face all over the news on Al Jazeera or some network like that, with him holding that day's newspaper or something to prove he is alive.

There is nothing Al Quaeda or other terrorist groups would love more than the opportunity to make the USA look foolish, or to embarass the Navy Seals, and nothing would accomplish that more effectively than showing current video of him still breathing after the POTUS goes on TV to state he has been killed.

If OBL still had a pulse, rest assured they would stop at nothing to find a way to get that word out to the world. There are some anti-American media outlets who would be all to happy to help them there. That premise I trust more than any government or western media official

[Fox128i]

Originally Posted by mspeasl

And Pearl Harbor didn't happen in 1941 and the Americans didn't land on the Moon in 1969 either according to your way of thinking..?

Must not comment... Must not comment...

Didn't Roosevelt and Churchill purposely allow Pearl Harbor to happen? That's what is says on the Internet.

[Fox128i]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

At first I was a bit skeptical as well when no body was produced...
And, of course, a "statement" supposedly by them in Western Media is not proof either, it could be fabricated by the US government.

Then I realized, if they didnt get Bin Laden, then Al Quaeda would be very quick to plaster his face all over the news on Al Jazeera or some network like that, with him holding that day's newspaper or something to prove he is alive.

There is nothing Al Quaeda or other terrorist groups would love more than the opportunity to make the USA look foolish, or to embarass the Navy Seals, and nothing would accomplish that more effectively than showing current video of him still breathing after the POTUS goes on TV to state he has been killed.

If OBL still had a pulse, rest assured they would stop at nothing to find a way to get that word out to the world. There are some anti-American media outlets who would be all to happy to help them there. That premise I trust more than any government or western media official

Very well said indeed.

Unless of course OBL and company are in on the conspiracy. Yes, that must be it. It all makes sense to me now. OBL is very likely living with Elvis, Bigfoot, and Jimmy Hoffa as I type this.

Sorry, Al. I couldn't resist. It's the smart ass in me.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by Fox128i

OBL is very likely living with Elvis, Bigfoot, and Jimmy Hoffa as I type this.

Elvis, Michael Jackson, and John Lennon all have concerts each weekend to entertain them at their secret government compound, and Bruce Lee provides security at the door.

[carve]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

Elvis, Michael Jackson, and John Lennon all have concerts each weekend to entertain them at their secret government compound, and Bruce Lee provides security at the door.

When it's declassified it'll make an awesome reality-show. I'm sure they keep the Roswell alien as a sidekick, like on "American Dad"

[divisionbell77]

Originally Posted by mob17

For whoever does not know (where have you been??) he is basically responsible for Wikileaks, the free speech organisation that has released a lot of confidential information to the public. Most of this information exposes corrupt Governments and individuals in this "War on Terror". So obviously there are some unhappy bunnies in the Government/Military.

Now the US want him to pay for what he's done. Ironic isn't it. But what the US wants, the US will get with help from its allies. So a sex allegation against Assange was made up and is being used by Sweden to try and get him extradited to Sweden. Then Sweden can get him extradited to the US where he will face life in jail or even the death penalty.

Assange then sought refuge in Equador's Embassy in London to claim political asylum. And in the last few days Equador has recently granted him political asylum So legally the UK police cant arrest him as long as he stays in the Embassy. At the moment there are around 100 UK police officers surrounding the Embassy, waiting to pounce.

What do you guys think about the whole situation? Is Assange right in what he did or should he not have exposed our Governments? How can he leave the UK without being arrested?

I think that judging by how you summed it up, you have fallen for a bunch of BS.

[mob17]

Before you read this i want to make clear i am not anti-american and im not crazy!! I like American people, food, tv etc. its just the Government that i despise

About the body, why isnt hanging Saddam seen as anti-muslim? Why is showing the body of supposedly the evilest man in the world not the right thing to do? Don't you think if he really is dead people have a right to know? WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE widows of 9/11? How do you think they felt after hearing "YAY WE KILLED OBL IN A REALLY SECRET COOL BLACK OPS MISSION, BUT WE BURIED HIM AT SEA TO RESPECT HIM AND HIS RELIGION BECAUSE WE ARE SO MORAL, AMERICA FTW!! I would be f***ing angry. I would want no doubt in my mind that it was him. But they went with this poor excuse that they didnt want to insult muslums (when they hanged one on worldwide tv a few years ago LOL) because it suits them. And Al Quaeda have admitted he's dead as Al Quaeda is an American made group designed to create terror in its people.

Think about this logically. IF what im saying is true, that the US are fabricating legitimate reasons to unlawfully occupy foreign soil and fulfilling other objectives, then obviously the truth will seem like BS to society. In what scenario will the truth NOT seem like BS? The mere fact that its unbelievable and disgusting causes your brain to reject it as crazy talk. You have been so used to being told your country is great (i am not saying America is a shit country, just making this point), that there will always be a justification in your eyes of what your country does. Maybe this is normal. Maybe its only us outsiders that can see this along with some switched on Americans.

Anyways im not one of those people who believe in a lot of conspiracies, like the world is going to end in 2012 etc. But regarding 9/11 and the next 10 years, its DEFINATELY not happened because of the reasons we have been told. I cannot comprehend how some humans cannot see this. I think its just that they dont want to see it.

The American government, along with its oil, banking and military industries, are just greedy, pure and simple, and want to ensure that they remain filthy rich top dogs, no matter what the consequences are. Its all about money, power and control. Its not about "HEY LOOK THERE'S AN ARAB DUDE WATCH OUT HE MIGHT BLOW!!!"

If there is anything good to come out of this thread, and by all means do not believe what i say, please just have a good read of that website i posted a few posts back. There's stuff on there that is NEVER reported in the mainstream media. But its all legit if you can be bothered to read it properly. Then have the nerve to tell me what America is doing is for the right reasons. Then tell me who the real "terrorists" are in this world.

[MiddleAgedAl]

So if 9/11 was a big fabricated conspiracy by the US government, (including creating the existance of a fake terrorist group they named Al Quaeda), designed to provide the justification to invade Iraq to ostensibly take out weapons of mass destruction, then they didnt they finish the job properly by actually planting some WMD material in Saddams compound?

It seems to me that the entire backstory of hijacking planes, planting explosives in the towers beforehand, etc, to be very complicated to pull off without being caught, so once they are actually in Iraq months later, the act of sending in even 1 guy to plant some carefully selected chemicals, etc, would be childs play in comparison. That would complete the ruse, vindicate the government, and allow the dumb general public to maintain faith in the governments stated motives, so they can continue their evil nefarious activites.

It sounds plausible to you that they would go to all that work, flawlessly execute this risky plan, yet stop 1 inch from the finish line, leaving off a crucial step that is arguably one of the easiest to complete, and most important ?

[Templar]

Originally Posted by mob17

Before you read this i want to make clear i am not anti-american and im not crazy!!

Sorry, stopped reading there from the lulz.

[OldArmy]

You brain is just not wired right, it's really not your fault. Take your meds, that will help a little bit. At least it may sedate you enough to get you to stop posting.

In the meantime, keep an eye on the sky. Black helicopters and all. Not to mention that the "Company" probably thinks you are getting too close to the truth and may have plans for you.

[mob17]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

You brain is just not wired right, it's really not your fault. Take your meds, that will help a little bit. At least it may sedate you enough to get you to stop posting.

In the meantime, keep an eye on the sky. Black helicopters and all. Not to mention that the "Company" probably thinks you are getting too close to the truth and may have plans for you.

Why must you always resort to labelling me as crazy and taking the piss? You're obviously some old patriot who can/will not accept the reality, or even CONSIDER alternatives. Maybe its because you've been in the Army (guessing from your name) and it hurts you to think the government you were serving have not been truthful to you. Maybe you cant handle you have helped them.

How can you be so certain what im saying is wrong, yet be so certain about what you read in the papers? Cant you think from a neutral point of view? Im not saying believe all conspiracies, im saying put yourself in a neutrals person's shoes for once.

You follow and support your country. Be a good little sheep, until the dog that is your Government bites you in the arsehole.

Also why isnt anyone answering my question. What if 9/11 happened in China, they blame an american group, come over bomb the shit out of us for 10 years whilst their government build bases and vest more and more interest in the region. Then a Assange appears and lets the world know the truth. Will he still be bad? Of course not. He will be hailed as a saviour.

I know it may be hard for some people to think and actually use their brains. Maybe you're just not used to thinking independantly.

Anyways F*ck it i give up, there's no point continuing this thread if no one cant or is willing to consider that their government might be in wars for the wrong reasons.

[carve]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

It sounds plausible to you that they would go to all that work, flawlessly execute this risky plan, yet stop 1 inch from the finish line, leaving off a crucial step that is arguably one of the easiest to complete, and most important ?

That is CLEARLY the work of the Illuminati, and their efforts to reduce the stability of our government.

[straight_six]

Originally Posted by mob17

Why must you always resort to labelling me as crazy and taking the piss? You're obviously some old patriot who can/will not accept the reality, or even CONSIDER alternatives. Maybe its because you've been in the Army (guessing from your name) and it hurts you to think the government you were serving have not been truthful to you. Maybe you cant handle you have helped them.

How can you be so certain what im saying is wrong, yet be so certain about what you read in the papers? Cant you think from a neutral point of view? Im not saying believe all conspiracies, im saying put yourself in a neutrals person's shoes for once.

You follow and support your country. Be a good little sheep, until the dog that is your Government bites you in the arsehole.

Also why isnt anyone answering my question. What if 9/11 happened in China, they blame an american group, come over bomb the shit out of us for 10 years whilst their government build bases and vest more and more interest in the region. Then a Assange appears and lets the world know the truth. Will he still be bad? Of course not. He will be hailed as a saviour.

I know it may be hard for some people to think and actually use their brains. Maybe you're just not used to thinking independantly.

Anyways F*ck it i give up, there's no point continuing this thread if no one cant or is willing to consider that their government might be in wars for the wrong reasons.

I don't know where you were on 9/11 but I watched it firsthand, had friends die in the planes & buildings, heard the cellphone calls, got firsthand accounts. Nothing to do with reading anything or any government account. This is not the story of the resurrection of Christ, It's an event we experienced ourselves. That's why your belief in "alternate reality" is nuts.

[Fox128i]

Originally Posted by carve

When it's declassified it'll make an awesome reality-show. I'm sure they keep the Roswell alien as a sidekick, like on "American Dad"

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

Elvis, Michael Jackson, and John Lennon all have concerts each weekend to entertain them at their secret government compound, and Bruce Lee provides security at the door.

Good Stuff. I wonder if the Loch Ness Monster ever comes to visit?

[Fox128i]

Originally Posted by carve

That is CLEARLY the work of the Illuminati, and their efforts to reduce the stability of our government.

And the Free Masons, don't forget about the Free Masons.