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      08-20-2012, 04:57 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
Ok i give up. Lets agree to disagree.

Anyways can we make this thread change course? Because whatever i say will be blasted as crazy.

So, for arguments sake, lets just say Assange is innocent. What are your suggestions/ideas how he could physically get out of the embassy and to safety? James Bond style ideas welcome.
I agree with you.
Maybe some tunnel digging can get him out.

Can anyone explain why Saddam was killed? I always wondered? They were searching for "weapons of mass destruction", but when they found out there were none, they changed reasoning to being a ruthless dictator?

Bunch of troops died for nothing, there were no nukes.
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      08-20-2012, 05:09 PM   #46
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Condom broke is rape, they both had breakfast with him the morning after, one of the woman worked for the US gov in Cuba.

Totally not trumped up charges to extradite him and charge him for espionage or treason, neither of which he is guilty of.

Right.
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      08-20-2012, 05:35 PM   #47
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He is guilty of supreme stupidity for the brazen manner in which he exposed certain things.

It amazes me how naive some people can be, like they are a 5 year old who has no grasp of how the world really works...

(for better or for worse; not saying it's always great the world is that way, but until I can stop it from being like that, I am doing myself no favors at all if I dont respect the unpleasant fact that it does work that way, and behave accordingly)

Whatever they fabricate to leverage some loophole, is really no different than getting Al Capone for tax evasion or whatever they could stick to him.

Frankly, if he had been free to move about as he pleased all this time instead of hiding, I'd bet the farm that he would have been involved in some "accident" or something by now.... I mean really, if you embarrass and expose entities of that magnitude without ensuring your anonymity, then if you dont expect consequences then you are not very bright at all.
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      08-20-2012, 07:59 PM   #48
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I mean really, if you embarrass and expose entities of that magnitude without ensuring your anonymity, then if you dont expect consequences then you are not very bright at all.
Precisely! I equate doing so with stealing money from the mob. Do it even once, which is stupid beyond belief and without covering your tracks and you'll be sleeping with the fishes faster than you can say, Jimmy Hoffa.
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      08-20-2012, 08:51 PM   #49
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The 9/11 conspiracy is crazy. Do you know the amount of coordination you need to pull off a conspiracy like that without anything going wrong and nobody from the US mainland being suspicious. I mean just think about it, the law of probability is against you, something always goes wrong specially for a conspiracy as huge as 9/11.

To actually high jack huge ass Boeing planes with hundreds of people inside, place bombs in the most popular building on a city that doesn't sleep and nobody noticing, launching missiles to the pentagon and to Pull it off all at once in front of millions of people watching. I can't even imagine the odds of pulling of something like this and nothing going wrong.

As far as Assange goes sure the rape did happen after the leak, but it doesn't make him innocent. Plus they make it sound like Sweden is a huge ally of the US. That and why does he want to go to Equador isn't that in South America near Columbia do you know how many US special ops currently in columbia and us forces currently in Nicaragua they could easily assasinate or kidnap him from there. He is better of in Sweden in front of the media the US would not do anything to him over there.

Also I believe he asked Barack to stop the witch hunt. Should have thought about that before he put all those lives at risk.
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      08-20-2012, 09:01 PM   #50
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By replying to this topic, it almost guarantees a rant from me of some kind.

The guy does seem like an ass, which means I'd never refer to him as a hero (I don't know of anyone I'd refer to as a "hero").

The problem is governments in general. Concentration of power is a bad thing. Now you have governments using the money of millions of people who have no choice but to pay to support whatever their government ends up doing (because it's almost impossible to align that many people for or against something). If they want to leave the country (something I'm trying to do soon), it's a long road ahead to get permanent citizenship and fully get rid of their US citizenship.

If you are a tax-paying US citizen, just change it to say "I helped kill hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians". If you're OK with that, support the US federal government. If you're not, do something about it.

These days, you can't voice your opinion against the federal government without many people calling you unamerican and anti-america. I could have sworn that was part of the point of the creation of the US. Honestly, the US federal government would hate to have the people who wrote the declaration of independence around. Lines like this would call for security monitoring of them or possibly all-expenses-paid vacations to Guantanamo Bay:
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Or quotes like this:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."

These are the things the American citizens have forgot and apathetic toward.

The government has long since passed the point of "of the people, by the people and for the people". It is now of the government, by the government, and for the interests of the government. It's borderline (if not already classifiable as) totalitarian and authoritarian, and progressing further into that direction. Many people blindly support it country thinking "It's what my country is asking of me, so it's the right thing to do." This is a big problem.

What Assange did is a tricky thing to pass judgement on, and I don't think there's an answer. Should the US government go unchecked and do whatever they want? Should people's lives be endangered? As others have said, it probably should have been gone through and only had information revealed which was not immediately threatening people's lives. If it could have been avoided, which it could have, it should have been. This is not a hindsight problem -- unless he's an imbecile, he knew that it would put people in danger.

I honestly don't care, hence why I have plans to leave the country. I probably would not have had a problem fighting in the war of independence, since it was for a just cause, against oppression, and heading in the direction of civil liberty. It sickens me that people say that you have to fight for your country and if you don't you're a coward and unpatriotic. a) Patriotism is foolishness -- logically, it implies irrationality; b) perhaps fighting for the true purpose the founding fathers of the US had would be a better thing to fight for instead of wars which make no sense other than greed and revenge (some of humanity's most pervasive and base qualities).

I digress. I have no doubt the US will head into the depths before it might be reborn (perhaps not even as the US the next time around), and I don't think it's that far off (in my lifetime); this is opinion and assumption. Humans are in general very stupid and emotionally driven. This does not make a good combination for logical analysis of any situation. I've given up talking to people since it's impossible to even explain the simplest of concepts or have an open-minded debate without illogical rants and the equivalent of "it is because I say it is" arguments.

I'm always open to improving my understanding, and I'm not afraid to yield that I'm wrong; I understand that even if I am highly logical, rational, and analytical, it doesn't mean that I'm without fault. My ideal country is one in which the average intelligence is much higher than the current average (i.e., leave the stupid people to destroy themselves, and only take the intelligent ones after proving themselves), run by philosophers, scientists, and logicians, not politicians, only allowing people of intelligence and good moral character in. There is no place like this, and as long as there are greedy, war-mongering, oppressive, power seeking people, I don't see it happening.

/rant
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      08-20-2012, 11:05 PM   #51
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[...]
/rant
I'm coming with you. Kudos.

Oh, yeah. OP, I think Assange is a douche.
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      08-21-2012, 12:01 AM   #52
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^^ So well spoken. The world has turned to crap and the people living in it don't even realize it. Can't stop a freight train with a bullet. That's the momentum of the government we're heading towards. If we never tried "liberating" people, there wouldn't be active combat troops to be put into danger to begin with. Not on this scale, at least.
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      08-21-2012, 01:20 AM   #53
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I think if a government is betraying its own citizens by killing scores of innocent people across the world then yeah, transparancy is a good thing. Citizens should know how bad their governments are.

About Assange, yes he shouldnt have disclosed details which could have harmed our military. But you can't have the belief that "All's fair in love and war" EXCEPT if it harms us (America and UK). This is basically saying we can do whatever we want but other people must follow our rules!!

Sorry i have no evidence on 9/11, this is just my opinion based on the facts of 9/11 and the real winners of that tragic day. Its all been fabricated very cleverly. But where's the evidence that scary terrorists did it? Apart from the pilots and "Al Quaeda" confessions. These are not concrete and could have easily been fabricated.

I believe there are two possibilities of what happened on 9/11:

A) The American government masterminded the whole thing. Planted bombs in the towers. Look at how the towers went down. Perfect demolition techniques. And for that to happen to TWO towers. Its just not believable that planes could have done that, even with all that jet fuel.

B) There were just some crazy mother fu**ers who wanted to fly planes into the towers. America knew this and simply let it happen so it could be seen to be legitimate when incading foreign soil. How can planes deviate so much from their course and not be stopped??

Both ways, America now had a legitimate reason to go about its business, by exploiting foreign resources. Anyone can do whatever they want, AS LONG as there's a legitmate reason. This is classic legitimate theory. Personally i think it is wrong and so would all you guys. Imagine if 9/11 hapoened in China. Then they thought it was us and invaded our country and exploited us. Then if a Chinese Assange came up we'd all be celebrating him.

If anyone wants more information on the real 9/11 story all you have to do is google it. There's tons of info on the internet about this topic.
Please tell me this is a joke?
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      08-21-2012, 01:30 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by fourier View Post
By replying to this topic, it almost guarantees a rant from me of some kind.

The guy does seem like an ass, which means I'd never refer to him as a hero (I don't know of anyone I'd refer to as a "hero").

The problem is governments in general. Concentration of power is a bad thing. Now you have governments using the money of millions of people who have no choice but to pay to support whatever their government ends up doing (because it's almost impossible to align that many people for or against something). If they want to leave the country (something I'm trying to do soon), it's a long road ahead to get permanent citizenship and fully get rid of their US citizenship.

If you are a tax-paying US citizen, just change it to say "I helped kill hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians". If you're OK with that, support the US federal government. If you're not, do something about it.

These days, you can't voice your opinion against the federal government without many people calling you unamerican and anti-america. I could have sworn that was part of the point of the creation of the US. Honestly, the US federal government would hate to have the people who wrote the declaration of independence around. Lines like this would call for security monitoring of them or possibly all-expenses-paid vacations to Guantanamo Bay:
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Or quotes like this:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."

These are the things the American citizens have forgot and apathetic toward.

The government has long since passed the point of "of the people, by the people and for the people". It is now of the government, by the government, and for the interests of the government. It's borderline (if not already classifiable as) totalitarian and authoritarian, and progressing further into that direction. Many people blindly support it country thinking "It's what my country is asking of me, so it's the right thing to do." This is a big problem.

What Assange did is a tricky thing to pass judgement on, and I don't think there's an answer. Should the US government go unchecked and do whatever they want? Should people's lives be endangered? As others have said, it probably should have been gone through and only had information revealed which was not immediately threatening people's lives. If it could have been avoided, which it could have, it should have been. This is not a hindsight problem -- unless he's an imbecile, he knew that it would put people in danger.

I honestly don't care, hence why I have plans to leave the country. I probably would not have had a problem fighting in the war of independence, since it was for a just cause, against oppression, and heading in the direction of civil liberty. It sickens me that people say that you have to fight for your country and if you don't you're a coward and unpatriotic. a) Patriotism is foolishness -- logically, it implies irrationality; b) perhaps fighting for the true purpose the founding fathers of the US had would be a better thing to fight for instead of wars which make no sense other than greed and revenge (some of humanity's most pervasive and base qualities).

I digress. I have no doubt the US will head into the depths before it might be reborn (perhaps not even as the US the next time around), and I don't think it's that far off (in my lifetime); this is opinion and assumption. Humans are in general very stupid and emotionally driven. This does not make a good combination for logical analysis of any situation. I've given up talking to people since it's impossible to even explain the simplest of concepts or have an open-minded debate without illogical rants and the equivalent of "it is because I say it is" arguments.

I'm always open to improving my understanding, and I'm not afraid to yield that I'm wrong; I understand that even if I am highly logical, rational, and analytical, it doesn't mean that I'm without fault. My ideal country is one in which the average intelligence is much higher than the current average (i.e., leave the stupid people to destroy themselves, and only take the intelligent ones after proving themselves), run by philosophers, scientists, and logicians, not politicians, only allowing people of intelligence and good moral character in. There is no place like this, and as long as there are greedy, war-mongering, oppressive, power seeking people, I don't see it happening.

/rant
So let's say for example you are the US President at the time of 9/11 and you ask afghanistan to turn over Osama and they do not. What do you do then?
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      08-21-2012, 06:57 AM   #55
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Who said Osama did it? Proof? OH I FORGOT the government said it and it says it in all the mainstream media. Sorry i should be a sheep and believe everything i read.
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      08-21-2012, 07:08 AM   #56
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I believe he released a video admitting to it.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/..._10-29-04.html
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      08-21-2012, 07:23 AM   #57
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You guys really believe everything in all these videos, most of them are known to be fabricated by the CIA.

So tell me why didnt America show the world his body? And dont tell me you believe that crap about it being unidentifiable. Even if we just had his big toe we still should the world our MAJOR ACHIEVEMENT that took 10 years, billions of dollars and many innocent lives.
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      08-21-2012, 07:31 AM   #58
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Show evidence it was fabricated
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      08-21-2012, 07:36 AM   #59
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Show evidence that Osama is dead (Government's say so is not evidence!)
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      08-21-2012, 07:52 AM   #60
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201

your turn
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      08-21-2012, 08:12 AM   #61
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LOL at the lunacy in this thread.

Like I said, get outside and get off the computer. The air is fresh out here. Not everything is like it is in the movies...

What a bunch of whack-jobs...
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      08-21-2012, 08:33 AM   #62
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LOL at the lunacy in this thread.

Like I said, get outside and get off the computer. The air is fresh out here. Not everything is like it is in the movies...

What a bunch of whack-jobs...
I can't believe this is real.
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      08-21-2012, 08:36 AM   #63
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I can't believe this is real.
What, the thread?
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      08-21-2012, 08:45 AM   #64
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Quote:
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A statement by "Al Quaeda"? Oh right that makes it all legit then doesn't it. That's no proof. Wheres the body? Saddam was killed in fron af an worldwide audience but Osama was mysteriously buried at sea. Hmm...

Do you really believe everything you read?
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      08-21-2012, 08:46 AM   #65
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A statement by "Al Quaeda"? Oh right that makes it all legit then doesn't it. That's no proof. Wheres the body? Saddam was killed in fron af an worldwide audience but Osama was mysteriously buried at sea. Hmm...

Do you really believe everything you read?
Apparently you do, just a different kind of story.
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      08-21-2012, 08:53 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar
LOL at the lunacy in this thread.

Like I said, get outside and get off the computer. The air is fresh out here. Not everything is like it is in the movies...

What a bunch of whack-jobs...
Sigh. I just feel sorry for all the people who believe their government/media. There's no point in trying to convince people like you, you will never give yourself that chance to THINK for yourselves instead of accepting things straight away.

Why dont you imagine this: 9/11 happens in China and they think its us who did it, invade our country killing loads of innocent people along the way in their "War on Terror", for over 10 years. Meanwhile not having no proof of WMDs or this mysterious Osama (who the Chinese knew about before and dined with the family), and benefitting from our resources. Would you think somethings going on? Would you think somethings not fair? Of course you would.

But yeah, im a "whack-job" for not being a good citizen and believing this rubbish. Im just glad im not the only "whack-job". There are loads of "whack-jobs" in America, UK and worldwide.
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