Julian Assange - Hero or Enemy?

[OldArmy]

Originally Posted by mob17

What about the actions of your Government? Will they ever regret them?

Does it make you feel guilty that your very existence is directly attributable to the same kind of US actions that you would like to condemn?

There are many things that we regret and we promise to keep doing them until we get them right.

[OldArmy]

Originally Posted by NYC6

Britain has be our staunchest allie this past decade(and long before that). Much British blood has been shed in foreign sands standing side by side with U.S. troops.
I think its insulting to say that, even if in jest.

Brits have always been the best soldiers and right there with us all along the way. They are probably the closest to us in terms of training, equipment, doctrine. But they have a problem (similar to ours) with military being dissasociated from the population, not many serve, not so connected any more. They are also profoundly changed (changing) demographically and the Brits we always depended on may not really exist any more.

[mob17]

Ok so what are the Americans and British doing in Afganistan and Iraq? Fighting for out freedom? LOL. No they are not. Is it to kill the evil Osama? Well firstly Osama was an American ally, his family were dining with Bush on 9/11 and even when they apparantly killed him there was no body!! What a joke, after spending billions of dollas and time, surely they would have shown the world their achievement? Weapons of mass destruction? NO again. Oil, Money and Control? Now we are getting somewhere. Can't believe the number of people that believe the official story.

Think i've obviously made a mistake posting this topic in a predominantly American forum, who all believe the official 9/11 story, that it was caused by scary bad "terrorists" who we have to kill matter what. I was bound to get no support. Also, just like to make clear that this is not an anti-American thread, I like American people just not the government and their illegal actions. I have respect for both our militaries, they are just doing their job, even though a minority of the military make me sick.

Just because you are the most powerful nation on Earth, it doesn't mean you are free to do what you want, which is what is happening.

There are millions of American people that would agree with me. Maybe American BMW owners mostly don't, which is sad

[SpeedOften]

Originally Posted by benmoooon

Treason? He's an Australian citizen, not a US Citizen

Treason against Australia... they have / had troops standing right next to ours...

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by SpeedOften

Treason against Australia... they have / had troops standing right next to ours...

and charge him with espionage against the U.S.A./U.K./Germany/Italy/France/Poland/Romania/Spain/Austria/Turkey all of whom have or had troops fighting for the coalition in Afghanistan. But not forgetting all those who fought in Iraq and Pakistan. All their lives were put in grave danger due to the information releases. Hang that POS from the highest tree.

[Fox128i]

If he would have properly vetted the information and excluded details that likely jeopardized military and intelligence personnel from the US and its allies, then I might be willing to support him. Fact is he did not, and that is just not kosher.

He's been accused of a sex crime in Sweden. Sweden is not in the back pocket of the US and is not drumming up charges just to get back at him. There is credible evidence presented in a court of law that he committed a crime and he needs to answer for this.

The guy is an attention whore, plain and simple. For those of you who claim the UK has no balls, I beg to differ. They are following the process of law both within the UK and internationally. They can't just very well storm the Ecuadorian embassy and arrest him.

The Embassy is foreign territory belonging to Ecuador. Breaching the doors and marching in could and likely would have serious consequences. The moment that little weasel leaves the embassy, his goose is cooked an he knows it. His little press conference is just an attempt to deflect the truth. Truth is, he's a dick.

Just because the US likes to skirt international law anytime it sees fit, doesn't give the UK carte blanche to do the same.

[DieselDiner]

Originally Posted by mob17

Think i've obviously made a mistake posting this topic in a predominantly American forum, who all believe the official 9/11 story, that it was caused by scary bad "terrorists" (

What is the "real" 9/11 story?

[yakev724]

Originally Posted by mob17

Ok so what are the Americans and British doing in Afganistan and Iraq? Fighting for out freedom? LOL. No they are not. Is it to kill the evil Osama? Well firstly Osama was an American ally, his family were dining with Bush on 9/11 and even when they apparantly killed him there was no body!! What a joke, after spending billions of dollas and time, surely they would have shown the world their achievement? Weapons of mass destruction? NO again. Oil, Money and Control? Now we are getting somewhere. Can't believe the number of people that believe the official story.

Think i've obviously made a mistake posting this topic in a predominantly American forum, who all believe the official 9/11 story, that it was caused by scary bad "terrorists" who we have to kill matter what. I was bound to get no support. Also, just like to make clear that this is not an anti-American thread, I like American people just not the government and their illegal actions. I have respect for both our militaries, they are just doing their job, even though a minority of the military make me sick.

Just because you are the most powerful nation on Earth, it doesn't mean you are free to do what you want, which is what is happening.

There are millions of American people that would agree with me. Maybe American BMW owners mostly don't, which is sad

"small-scale" wars have been fought by the US throughout most of the 20th century for political and economic reasons. 2001 was no different. I agree that Bush's administration pushed into the middle east to assert dominance, increase regional control, political reasons, etc...

I disagree with the decision making behind the wars in 2001, but that has no bearing on the U.S.' attitude toward Assange.

REGARDLESS of what happened in Afghanistan, however wrong the reasons and effects may have been, disclosing classified documents is a crime and those that do it will be prosecuted. This isn't my yank pride talking, it's simple political/legal position which must be in effect at all times, regardless of what was leaked.

You allow Manning and Assange to go free, you're giving the right to anyone else in the military who feels that it would be a good idea to leak classified/secret documents to the public. If you think the U.S. (or any modern) government or military can function properly with full transparency, you need to educate yourself.






And about 9/11:

[OldArmy]

Originally Posted by mob17

Oil, Money and Control? Now we are getting somewhere. Can't believe the number of people that believe the official story.

Really, please enlighten everyone on the payoff. When our action in SWA turns a profit do let me know. It'll be the first time. Much like when we saved your asses twice in the last hundred years.

Think i've obviously made a mistake posting this topic in a predominantly American forum, who all believe the official 9/11 story, that it was caused by scary bad "terrorists" who we have to kill matter what. I was bound to get no support.

Or could it be because you have an uninformed, insular and juvenile view of the world?

Just because you are the most powerful nation on Earth, it doesn't mean you are free to do what you want, which is what is happening.

Actually that's exactly what it means. Lucky for you and millions of others that we have taken that tact so many times.

There are millions of American people that would agree with me. Maybe American BMW owners mostly don't, which is sad

You think BMW ownership is a ticket to wisdom and rationality?

[mob17]

I think if a government is betraying its own citizens by killing scores of innocent people across the world then yeah, transparancy is a good thing. Citizens should know how bad their governments are.

About Assange, yes he shouldnt have disclosed details which could have harmed our military. But you can't have the belief that "All's fair in love and war" EXCEPT if it harms us (America and UK). This is basically saying we can do whatever we want but other people must follow our rules!!

Sorry i have no evidence on 9/11, this is just my opinion based on the facts of 9/11 and the real winners of that tragic day. Its all been fabricated very cleverly. But where's the evidence that scary terrorists did it? Apart from the pilots and "Al Quaeda" confessions. These are not concrete and could have easily been fabricated.

I believe there are two possibilities of what happened on 9/11:

A) The American government masterminded the whole thing. Planted bombs in the towers. Look at how the towers went down. Perfect demolition techniques. And for that to happen to TWO towers. Its just not believable that planes could have done that, even with all that jet fuel.

B) There were just some crazy mother fu**ers who wanted to fly planes into the towers. America knew this and simply let it happen so it could be seen to be legitimate when incading foreign soil. How can planes deviate so much from their course and not be stopped??

Both ways, America now had a legitimate reason to go about its business, by exploiting foreign resources. Anyone can do whatever they want, AS LONG as there's a legitmate reason. This is classic legitimate theory. Personally i think it is wrong and so would all you guys. Imagine if 9/11 hapoened in China. Then they thought it was us and invaded our country and exploited us. Then if a Chinese Assange came up we'd all be celebrating him.

If anyone wants more information on the real 9/11 story all you have to do is google it. There's tons of info on the internet about this topic.

[mob17]

Quoted OldArmy:
Really, please enlighten everyone on the payoff. When our action in SWA turns a profit do let me know. It'll be the first time. Much like when we saved your asses twice in the last hundred years.

The payoff? How can you not see how much America has gained from all of this?? How about the billions of dollars oil and military companies have made off this? And its about control as well as money. America wants to be the big player in the world. Why do you think there are still Opium fields in Afganistan?

Quoted OldArmy:
Or could it be because you have an uninformed, insular and juvenile view of the world?

Nope. If i was juvenile i would not engage my brain and not be able to think critically. Obviously your "informed view" comes from mainstream media, i just dont believe what i read in the papers. You'd be suprised theres probably a bigger proportion of us in the UK that does not believe the 9/11 story

Quoted OldArmy:
Actually that's exactly what it means. Lucky for you and millions of others that we have taken that tact so many times.

You've just proven my point its people like you in our Government that most people hate. So America can do what she wants but anyone else its RUN BE SCARED A TERRORIST IS GOING TO BLOW!!!!! You're obviously a patriot so there's no point in arguing with you anymore.

Quoted OldArmy:
You think BMW ownership is a ticket to wisdom and rationality?

I was being sarcastic.

[Templar]

You need to go put your tinfoil hat back on and sit in the corner. You're not going to get anyone here to agree with your illogical nonsense.

[SpeedOften]

Originally Posted by mob17

I think if a government is betraying its own citizens by killing scores of innocent people across the world then yeah, transparancy is a good thing. Citizens should know how bad their governments are.

About Assange, yes he shouldnt have disclosed details which could have harmed our military. But you can't have the belief that "All's fair in love and war" EXCEPT if it harms us (America and UK). This is basically saying we can do whatever we want but other people must follow our rules!!

Sorry i have no evidence on 9/11, this is just my opinion based on the facts of 9/11 and the real winners of that tragic day. Its all been fabricated very cleverly. But where's the evidence that scary terrorists did it? Apart from the pilots and "Al Quaeda" confessions. These are not concrete and could have easily been fabricated.

I believe there are two possibilities of what happened on 9/11:

A) The American government masterminded the whole thing. Planted bombs in the towers. Look at how the towers went down. Perfect demolition techniques. And for that to happen to TWO towers. Its just not believable that planes could have done that, even with all that jet fuel.

B) There were just some crazy mother fu**ers who wanted to fly planes into the towers. America knew this and simply let it happen so it could be seen to be legitimate when incading foreign soil. How can planes deviate so much from their course and not be stopped??

Both ways, America now had a legitimate reason to go about its business, by exploiting foreign resources. Anyone can do whatever they want, AS LONG as there's a legitmate reason. This is classic legitimate theory. Personally i think it is wrong and so would all you guys. Imagine if 9/11 hapoened in China. Then they thought it was us and invaded our country and exploited us. Then if a Chinese Assange came up we'd all be celebrating him.

If anyone wants more information on the real 9/11 story all you have to do is google it. There's tons of info on the internet about this topic.

There are sites on the internet that say 1+1=3... Does it make it true? Hind sight is 20-20. It always is and always will be. But If all the information was known 9-11 would not have happened. Just because some looney bin spouts a bunch of baloney doesn't make it the truth. There will always be extreme conspiracy theories by those who don't understand no plan goes exactly as planned.

[Fox128i]

I'm quite sure the US has been involved in its share of cover-ups and conspiracies, but to suggest 9/11 was an inside job is quite a stretch. I've read what's available on the Interwebs and it does't wash in my opinion.

For the US to pull off 9/11 there would have to have been 100s and I do mean 100s of people involved. Both towers were hit by Boeing 767-200s traveling at high rates of speed and full of highly flammable avgas. That stuff burns mighty hot. And once it has burned off, which it will do, the fire will continue. Both towers were full of highly combustable materials.

The skeletal structures of both towers were heavily damaged by wide-bodied commercial aircraft before the fire(s) began to take hold. Taking this into account, I am not the least bit surprised both towers fell. Do remember that the maximum take-off weight of a Boeing 767-200 is roughly 395,000 pounds (179,000 kg). Also remember that the -200 has an additional center fuel tank to increase the MTOW of the aircraft.

Belief in an inside job does not equate to proof. No matter how much gobbledy goop one finds on Al Gore's Internet. Now, if you want to talk to me about conspiracies, then lets talk about Roswell.

[Fox128i]

Originally Posted by mob17

How can planes deviate so much from their course and not be stopped??

An aircraft can easily deviate from its scheduled flight plan. It's not difficult at all. The only way to stop one from doing so is to shoot it down. IIRC, the US did not have a policy to shoot down commercial aircraft which might have flown off course.

If the US shot down every aircraft that ever deviated from its flight plan, we'd have a whole new set of problems on our hands now wouldn't we?

[mspeasl]

Originally Posted by mob17

I think if a government is betraying its own citizens by killing scores of innocent people across the world then yeah, transparancy is a good thing. Citizens should know how bad their governments are.

About Assange, yes he shouldnt have disclosed details which could have harmed our military. But you can't have the belief that "All's fair in love and war" EXCEPT if it harms us (America and UK). This is basically saying we can do whatever we want but other people must follow our rules!!

Sorry i have no evidence on 9/11, this is just my opinion based on the facts of 9/11 and the real winners of that tragic day. Its all been fabricated very cleverly. But where's the evidence that scary terrorists did it? Apart from the pilots and "Al Quaeda" confessions. These are not concrete and could have easily been fabricated.

I believe there are two possibilities of what happened on 9/11:

A) The American government masterminded the whole thing. Planted bombs in the towers. Look at how the towers went down. Perfect demolition techniques. And for that to happen to TWO towers. Its just not believable that planes could have done that, even with all that jet fuel.

B) There were just some crazy mother fu**ers who wanted to fly planes into the towers. America knew this and simply let it happen so it could be seen to be legitimate when incading foreign soil. How can planes deviate so much from their course and not be stopped??

Both ways, America now had a legitimate reason to go about its business, by exploiting foreign resources. Anyone can do whatever they want, AS LONG as there's a legitmate reason. This is classic legitimate theory. Personally i think it is wrong and so would all you guys. Imagine if 9/11 hapoened in China. Then they thought it was us and invaded our country and exploited us. Then if a Chinese Assange came up we'd all be celebrating him.

If anyone wants more information on the real 9/11 story all you have to do is google it. There's tons of info on the internet about this topic.

OMG a Brit version of Scotch. Can the world handle two?

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by mob17

So a sex allegation against Assange was made up and is being used by Sweden to try and get him extradited to Sweden. Then Sweden can get him extradited to the US where he will face life in jail or even the death penalty.

Oh please, this is Sweden you're talking about

I'd lay odds on this guy having quite a few 'skeletons' in his cupboard from way before Wikileaks even started.

[mob17]

Ok i give up. Lets agree to disagree.

Anyways can we make this thread change course? Because whatever i say will be blasted as crazy.

So, for arguments sake, lets just say Assange is innocent. What are your suggestions/ideas how he could physically get out of the embassy and to safety? James Bond style ideas welcome.

[carve]

Originally Posted by NYC6

and charge him with espionage against the U.S.A./U.K./Germany/Italy/France/Poland/Romania/Spain/Austria/Turkey all of whom have or had troops fighting for the coalition in Afghanistan. But not forgetting all those who fought in Iraq and Pakistan. All their lives were put in grave danger due to the information releases. Hang that POS from the highest tree.

Did he steal the information? I thought he just published it. It's no different than "Aviation Week" publishing pics of secret US and foreign aircraft. The kid who gave him the info is guilty of espionage and treason. Assange is just a reporter of sorts. He's certainly no hero though, and shouldn't have published tactical information that does nothing but put people in harms way. He should've only published evidence of wrongdoing.

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by M3Denver

there is no difference between him and the current goons in the whitehouse. They leak info constantly and even preemptively which has jeopardized our troops. The leakers in the white house are equally guilty which even included Obama at this point.

the video on youtube called dishonorable disclosures sums it up well.

You actually think that crap video is true, huh? Hoo boy.

It's as valid a video as the one claiming Romney killed a guy's wife because Bain bought and shuttered a steel mill. Both videos are lies and innuendo paid for by PACs with more money than conscience. They put this stuff out hoping to rile up voters who can't be bothered to read stuff and think for themselves. None of it should be considered "free speech." All of it should be considered libel.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by carve

shouldn't have published tactical information that does nothing but put people in harms way. He should've only published evidence of wrongdoing.

Yes, if you are interested in exposing gov secrets for this sort of wrongdoing, that's one thing, but publishing tactical (instead of just strategic) info like did put a lot of people in even more danger, and most of those people were not the ones guilty of any subversive backroom dealings. Assange wasnt being clever or heroic, he was basically throwing a handful of shit into a fan. If you want to expose bad stuff, there are much better ways to do so than he did.

As far as the 9/11 stuff, if you take the time to search for info that does not just reinforce your opinion, you will find many well-done sites and videos which address all the conspiracy theories. Some go thru them one by one in some detail (helpful if you have a grasp of at least high-school level physics), and refute them in a fairly sensible, thorough manner. Even if you believe these videos are secretly put out by the gov, the content in them is basic, irrefutable physics. They are not saying "this is explained away by factors we cannot divulge due to national security", it's all transparent stuff. Take it to your highschool physics teacher and ask if the concepts their defense rely upon is sound or nonsense (unless you think the teacher at your local school is in on the conspiracy too).

[b0bab0i]

Originally Posted by Bimmer84

And guess who is part of the overseas contingency? Australia.

Along with all these other countries:
United Kingdom
Albania
Belgium
Bulgaria
Canada
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Netherlands
Luxembourg
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Turkey
Pakistan
Afghanistan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
El Salvador
Ethiopia
Georgia
Iraq
Israel
China
Kenya
South Korea
Russia
Lebanon
New Zealand
Philippines
South Africa