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      08-07-2012, 07:47 PM   #67
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When I bought the car I was told specifically on multiple occassions that the car was never winter driven. I thought buying at a BMW dealership mean't I was buying something certified, tested, repaired, etc.... I never even thought to ask to look under the car, I shouldn't have had to but this goes to show that don't trust BMW dealerships or at least the one I went to. I found out last week the car was painted 4 times (it showed in the service history, now they don't want to give details on the painting/bodywork so I need a subpoena).

From my understanding BMW Germany is now reading this thread, I forwarded them the link and they've been asking questions via email. I'm not sure where it'll go but everyone reading this thread will know the outcome that is a gurantee.
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      08-07-2012, 08:10 PM   #68
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Which dealer?
Canbec seems to be the best one in Mtl.
Laval is good, west island is pure garbage.
I would bring it to a independent shop, the dealer will overcharge you.
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      08-08-2012, 09:08 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitch32 View Post
When I bought the car I was told specifically on multiple occassions that the car was never winter driven. I thought buying at a BMW dealership mean't I was buying something certified, tested, repaired, etc.... I never even thought to ask to look under the car, I shouldn't have had to but this goes to show that don't trust BMW dealerships or at least the one I went to. I found out last week the car was painted 4 times (it showed in the service history, now they don't want to give details on the painting/bodywork so I need a subpoena).

From my understanding BMW Germany is now reading this thread, I forwarded them the link and they've been asking questions via email. I'm not sure where it'll go but everyone reading this thread will know the outcome that is a gurantee.
i am not surprised that dealerships do this. it doesnt just happen at BMW dealerships. many dealerships will repaint parts of the body to make the condition of the car perfect before resale. the bottom line is people always buy cars that look nice and pristine on the outside.

i am in montreal as well and i am selling my m3 at way under market value, even then, i had to entertain a few low balls to my offer. the car has very detailed service records and has been impeccably maintained but many potential buyers end up going through the dealer route to get a CPO car because they trust them more.
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      08-08-2012, 08:51 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal red View Post
i am not surprised that dealerships do this. it doesnt just happen at BMW dealerships. many dealerships will repaint parts of the body to make the condition of the car perfect before resale. the bottom line is people always buy cars that look nice and pristine on the outside.

i am in montreal as well and i am selling my m3 at way under market value, even then, i had to entertain a few low balls to my offer. the car has very detailed service records and has been impeccably maintained but many potential buyers end up going through the dealer route to get a CPO car because they trust them more.
My car just came off warranty in June, and now is on BMW CPO until 2014.... Look what good its doing me. This is my first BMW and my first real issue isn't being easily warrantied. People always say this but 'if I would have known' this would have happened I would have bought my car off a private sale save 8% in tax and the 10-20% dealership markup.
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      08-10-2012, 12:24 PM   #71
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UPDATE Another small twist to the story:

BMW Germany contacted BMW Canada and told them to call me and investigate. The dealer never told BMW Canada that the subframe was rusted. Also I mentioned the mileage of when the redline was hit (according to their log) vs the actual mileage now, the rep didn't admit to it but hinted/indicated that the current mileage was never documented, I'm pretty sure they could have seen it in the log but it wasn't written on the report. It seems the dealer is trying to hide their issues, such as selling a repainted car and a car with mileage that may be untruthful (due to rusted subframe and low mileage between jan 2011-april 2012, only 500km during that timeframe)
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      08-10-2012, 12:49 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitch32 View Post
UPDATE Another small twist to the story:

BMW Germany contacted BMW Canada and told them to call me and investigate. The dealer never told BMW Canada that the subframe was rusted. Also I mentioned the mileage of when the redline was hit (according to their log) vs the actual mileage now, the rep didn't admit to it but hinted/indicated that the current mileage was never documented, I'm pretty sure they could have seen it in the log but it wasn't written on the report. It seems the dealer is trying to hide their issues, such as selling a repainted car and a car with mileage that may be untruthful (due to rusted subframe and low mileage between jan 2011-april 2012, only 500km during that timeframe)
At this point, it sounds like you have enough to get out of the car completely. IMO, you should at least try. It sounds like it's had a rough history.
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      08-10-2012, 03:39 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitch32 View Post
UPDATE Another small twist to the story:

BMW Germany contacted BMW Canada and told them to call me and investigate. The dealer never told BMW Canada that the subframe was rusted. Also I mentioned the mileage of when the redline was hit (according to their log) vs the actual mileage now, the rep didn't admit to it but hinted/indicated that the current mileage was never documented, I'm pretty sure they could have seen it in the log but it wasn't written on the report. It seems the dealer is trying to hide their issues, such as selling a repainted car and a car with mileage that may be untruthful (due to rusted subframe and low mileage between jan 2011-april 2012, only 500km during that timeframe)
At this point, it sounds like you have enough to get out of the car completely. IMO, you should at least try. It sounds like it's had a rough history.
I'll try but tbh I don't think it'll work as I bought the car it's not leased.
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      08-10-2012, 03:42 PM   #74
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you should be using the corrosion part of the warranty based on those pics. There's no refuting that
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      08-11-2012, 03:20 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talontid View Post
you should be using the corrosion part of the warranty based on those pics. There's no refuting that
+1

I would tell the dealer to prove that all of that rust didn't play into the rear diff failing.
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      08-11-2012, 05:38 PM   #76
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so it looks like you tried going to canbec and talking to Cip right ? what did Cip say about the whole situation ?
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      08-11-2012, 07:39 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal red View Post
so it looks like you tried going to canbec and talking to Cip right ? what did Cip say about the whole situation ?
Chip's on vacation 'till Monday apparently.

I'm really looking forward to how they handle this issue.

Even thinking of swinging by this upcoming week and having them inspect my subframe to make sure all is well. I don't winter-drive my M3, but I have experienced some wheel-hop before.
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      08-12-2012, 01:22 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Montreal3 View Post
Chip's on vacation 'till Monday apparently.

I'm really looking forward to how they handle this issue.

Even thinking of swinging by this upcoming week and having them inspect my subframe to make sure all is well. I don't winter-drive my M3, but I have experienced some wheel-hop before.
I'll be calling Ciprian on Monday.... Check your PM's
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      08-13-2012, 04:03 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talontid View Post
not entirely true. The diff bolts have been discussed at length here before. The problem is the threaded bolts securing the diff shear.
I wouldn't think a burnout to be that bad for the car as the wheels should be spinning. Lateral forces on the car would present more of an issue on the bolts themselves. So standing still, even smoking the tires and giving the driveline and initial shock shouldn't do this.
Maybe if it was at a drag strip going through the box (sticky rubber) or launching the car that I could see, or as said before hard lateral forces on the rear end.Now where is the guy who was designing new bolts??
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Originally Posted by talontid View Post
Futhermore, I believe the diff acutally broke after the bolts sheared and it hit the ground. THis is what damaged the heat sink on it too. The issue is not in the diff, but how it's secured.
OP your car looks like a good candidate for the corrosion warranty regardless, it looks terrible under there.
Your posts are rife with misinformation and takes away focus from the real issue. The bolts are not at fault here, rather the rubber mounts that house the bolts which flex. Several performance shops have already developed solid or delrin cased mounts which unitize the diff to the sub-frame and eliminate the flex caused by the diff during hard driving.

So you argue the bolts are at fault? Yet these shops who have spent the time and effort to CNC the uprated diff mounts have not also machined new bolts to go along with their mounts????????? you would think machining bolts that are partially threaded wouldn’t be too complicated for them to do right? Yet they haven’t. :

The reason they have not and no one else has is there is no need for using partially threaded bolts if you unitize the diff to the rear sub-frame with solid or stiffer mounts than OEM. So fortunately we don’t have to wait for someone to machine these in their garage b/c the use of these bolts is moot if you use the solid mounts. Again as with all suspension stiffness uprating there will be some measure of NVH increase.
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      08-13-2012, 04:04 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Here you have a car that was pitched the ultimate track car with a raised redline at 8,300k heck the car was freaking designed for high revs PERIOD and you question this guy all the way from Hicksville Alabama .... WTF LOL
If you simply have nothing positive to say do me a favor keep your comments to yourself
Heck the car had launch control , rev limiter ( which is there for senerios like this one ) & high revs cut offs....

FOR THE RECORD BMWNA is dead wrong ! And even if you lived in Alaska there's no reason for all the rust !! To the OP check the history records of your car make sure the miles weren't dialed back !
Also have your dealer check the history of your revs to see what's the clock on high revs ( redline) that will show if you abuse your car .
Good luck
Comical how many are drinking this kool-aid, “The M3 is the ultimate track car” nonsense. Here it is in a nutshell: the m3 is a “street car” and in its stock form if you beat on it and abuse it..it will break. Hell even track cars break so not sure why this argument is constantly being presented as a reason people think they can abuse this car endlessly w/o consequence.

OP did burnouts that more than likely induced wheel hop, add to that the condition of the rotted out sub-frame and I am surprised it was only the diff that fell out and not the whole sub-frame. I have no sympathy for people who abuse their cars then expect BMW to pick up the tab. You play you pay...
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      08-13-2012, 04:15 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Your posts are rife with misinformation and takes away focus from the real issue. The bolts are not at fault here, rather the rubber mounts that house the bolts which flex. Several performance shops have already developed solid or delrin cased mounts which unitize the diff to the sub-frame and eliminate the flex caused by the diff during hard driving.

So you argue the bolts are at fault? Yet these shops who have spent the time and effort to CNC the uprated diff mounts have not also machined new bolts to go along with their mounts????????? you would think machining bolts that are partially threaded wouldn’t be too complicated for them to do right? Yet they haven’t. :

The reason they have not and no one else has is there is no need for using partially threaded bolts if you unitize the diff to the rear sub-frame with solid or stiffer mounts than OEM. So fortunately we don’t have to wait for someone to machine these in their garage b/c the use of these bolts is moot if you use the solid mounts. Again as with all suspension stiffness uprating there will be some measure of NVH increase.
This post has a lot of misinformation in it, and spreading of such is not in the best interest of this community.

The bolts are a major problem, as are the bushings and mounts.

The differential sustains damage AFTER the mounting hardware fails, this is why the low hanging heat sink gets damaged.

If you take apart an E9x M3 that has had this failure, it becomes painfully obvious what is going on.

Carry on gentlemen.
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      08-13-2012, 04:17 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
This post has a lot of misinformation in it, and spreading of such is not in the best interest of this community.

The bolts are a major problem, as are the bushings and mounts.

The differential sustains damage AFTER the mounting hardware fails, this is why the low hanging heat sink gets damaged.

If you take apart an E9x M3 that has had this failure, it becomes painfully obvious what is going on.

Carry on gentlemen.
Care to comment why reputable CNC shops have invested time in the mounts and not the bolts, when the bolts are far easier to machine
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      08-13-2012, 04:41 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Care to comment why reputable CNC shops have invested time in the mounts and not the bolts, when the bolts are far easier to machine
Most companies that you are referring to are machining new bushings to improve feel and performance of the car, not for component failure.

BMW Group-N bushings were not developed to prevent failure, they were made for performance improvement for racing by increasing drive-train feedback, reducing and practically eliminating deflection to prevent alignment change while the car is dynamic.

Yes, machine solid mounts will help the problem and minimize it through reducing bushing deflection. However, this does not solve the problem, it alleviates it for the reason just mentioned.

Just a little fact about R&D in regards to this matter, creating the solid differential bushings through Solidworks and having them machined is an easier task than making new hardware. Now if we are talking about the actual sub-frame bushings, that's a different ballgame, however, hardware failure for the sub-frame is non-existent and you will probably never see new hardware being developed for that mounting point.
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      08-13-2012, 04:47 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malek@MRF View Post
Most companies that you are referring to are machining new bushings to improve feel and performance of the car, not for component failure.

Yes, machine solid mounts will help the problem and minimize it through reducing bushing deflection. However, this does not solve the problem, it alleviates it for the reason just mentioned.

Just a little fact about R&D in regards to this matter, creating the solid differential bushings through Solidworks and having them machined is an easier task than making new hardware. Now if we are talking about the actual sub-frame bushings, that's a different ballgame, however, hardware failure for the sub-frame is non-existent.
The companies I have in mind are racing these cars ..they are going far beyond just improving the feel..by unitizing the diff to the rear subframe you have all but eliminated the inherent "flex" in the rubber mounts..if you were to use solid mounts here there would be no need to use partially threaded bolts..

Maybe there is some credibilty to swapping the bolts if using the OEM mounts...but this is treating the casuality and not the underlying cause which are the mounts themselves.
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      08-13-2012, 07:42 PM   #85
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Nice to have tibra back!

Any updates, Mitch? Were you able to get the car in and see Chip today?
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      08-13-2012, 09:05 PM   #86
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This is the biggest load of crap, rust is normal?? wtf. My suggestion is to find the BMW facebook fan page for BMW America or Canada and ask the uses like in here what they think...watch them contact you straight away.
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      08-14-2012, 02:34 PM   #87
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BMW Canada contacted me, took down additional information and never called me back. I got irritated over this past weekend so I decided to tear down the rear of the car. The diff is 100% in good shape, the aluminum on the back of the diff broke. When that happened the yoke of the driveshaft broke and the subframe got dinged. I ordered all the parts today and will install them over the weekend, I will be sueing BMW Canada for time lost and parts/labour.

tibra1 you seem like a fairly knowledgable guy, the fact the rear casing broke off the car is ludacris. I have been working on cars for 15 years++, as a mechanic, an engineer, and as a enthusiast. I have never, not once (minus the e36 m3, thats a different story) seen a diff fall off a car. I've seen transmissions split, subframes twist, transmission crossmembers break, you name it I've seen it. A diff should never fall off a car, stock street car or not. You should be able to break axles, driveshafts, burn ring gears/spurs before a diff falls off a car. A burnout essentially should never break anything since theres no real load, on the other hand wheelhop can break many things but not a diff housing. The m3 rear housing is the weidest most unintelligent design I've ever witnessed on a car (many bmw's are like this, I'm guessing to eliminate NVH but from a durability/reliability standpoint the design is faulty). The bolts are also in shear which is a terrible design, should be in tension since a bolt is strong that way, why is there only 1 bolt on top? Anything that requires any real strength will have the bolts in tension/compression, its design/engineering 101. Also aluminum fails without a doubt, putting 1 bolt and no re-enforcement will cause it to break. Since aluminum fails (fatigue limit) Aluminum wings on airplanes are constantly x-rayed and tested for cracks. You can deisgn aluminum in ways that it never sees extreme loads but obviously that didn't happen with the e92 m3. Solid bushings will help alleviate some of the fatigue, a brace seems like the best option.
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      08-14-2012, 03:21 PM   #88
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I would contact BMW Germany again before you go that route. They are the ones that told BMW Canada to contact you, so run it up that flagpole again. I doubt BMW Germany wanted Canada to contact you, get info and never follow up again.
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