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      07-22-2012, 12:01 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by amirz1000 View Post
Fixed
Few get this right.
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      07-22-2012, 12:04 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by gblansten View Post
Few get this right.
Yep. I used to be one of them until I got corrected. lol
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      07-22-2012, 12:13 AM   #25
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my m3 is 69k and some change
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      07-22-2012, 02:13 AM   #26
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I have a '13 on order, so I guess I'll chime in here given that I had to make a decision between ordering an RS5 and an M3. Previously I had a '10 S4 and liked it quite a bit, so I was definitely biased toward an RS5. Here's why I chose to order an M3 instead:
  1. No test drives - RS5s have only now appeared at dealers and allocations are going fast. Ordering months ago to receive one now meant you were guessing at the driving dynamics. You didn't have to take possession if you didn't like it, but that's a long time to wait. I guess you could order both and cancel one, but that just seemed like being dishonest.
  2. Priced at MSRP - Most of us here didn't pay MSRP for an M3, but good luck finding a discount on the RS5. This means you're really comparing invoice + $X for an M3 to MSRP for an RS5. The MSRPs are fairly close, and the invoices are fairly close, but MSRP on an RS5 is substantially more than invoice on an M3.
  3. Carbon build-up - The engine is direct injected and previous direct injection naturally-aspirated engine offerings from Audi have unfortunately suffered from carbon build-up that robs the engine of horsepower. The S5 V8 and previous B7 RS4 were known for this.
  4. Weight - The RS5 is roughly the weight of the S4 and I can tell you from driving both that the M3 feels lighter. This is partly because it actually is lighter, but likely also because of better weight balance. The RS5 might hide the weight better than the S4 (and I hope it would), but it's still going to weigh more.

So in the end you have to pay thousands more for what is essentially a comparable car with a few negative points. I will say the interior looks a lot better, and even the S4's interior is (IMHO) more aesthetically appealing than the M3's. If money is no object and you want a more exclusive car, I'd say go with the RS5. Otherwise, I think the M3 will still end up being just as good or even better.
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      07-22-2012, 03:22 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtopherus View Post
I have a '13 on order, so I guess I'll chime in here given that I had to make a decision between ordering an RS5 and an M3. Previously I had a '10 S4 and liked it quite a bit, so I was definitely biased toward an RS5. Here's why I chose to order an M3 instead:
  1. No test drives - RS5s have only now appeared at dealers and allocations are going fast. Ordering months ago to receive one now meant you were guessing at the driving dynamics. You didn't have to take possession if you didn't like it, but that's a long time to wait. I guess you could order both and cancel one, but that just seemed like being dishonest.
  2. Priced at MSRP - Most of us here didn't pay MSRP for an M3, but good luck finding a discount on the RS5. This means you're really comparing invoice + $X for an M3 to MSRP for an RS5. The MSRPs are fairly close, and the invoices are fairly close, but MSRP on an RS5 is substantially more than invoice on an M3.
  3. Carbon build-up - The engine is direct injected and previous direct injection naturally-aspirated engine offerings from Audi have unfortunately suffered from carbon build-up that robs the engine of horsepower. The S5 V8 and previous B7 RS4 were known for this.
  4. Weight - The RS5 is roughly the weight of the S4 and I can tell you from driving both that the M3 feels lighter. This is partly because it actually is lighter, but likely also because of better weight balance. The RS5 might hide the weight better than the S4 (and I hope it would), but it's still going to weigh more.

So in the end you have to pay thousands more for what is essentially a comparable car with a few negative points. I will say the interior looks a lot better, and even the S4's interior is (IMHO) more aesthetically appealing than the M3's. If money is no object and you want a more exclusive car, I'd say go with the RS5. Otherwise, I think the M3 will still end up being just as good or even better.

Awesome points made.
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      07-22-2012, 05:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by hpc3 View Post
It comes with about everything people want other than Nav. Add that and you're looking at $73K sticker. My M3 is $72K sticker as a manual ZCP. They are right on top of each other.

The RS5 is more of a GT car I think... I waited on their release to see if they were going to have a 6sp option and ordered the M3 a couple of days after finding out the US gets DSG only. I'm no fan of Audis 4.2L either but having owned 6 Audis over the past 15yrs I wanted to make sure I at least considered one.

Also I'll tell you its a much bigger car in feel having come from an '11 S4 myself. Audi has taken the B8/B9 platform up 1/2 a notch like BMW has on the F3X so if you like the smaller car size you may be disappointed as I was with mine.
If you are no fan of the Audi 4.2L, then you won't like the M3 motor either. I came from an RS4. I absolutely loved the engine and how it revved. The M3 motor is the same in overall feel. That's one of the things I love about the M3. If you are speaking to the lesser Audi 4.2 motor, it is definitely a different experience, however.

The issue with the RS5 is not the motor, it is the steering feel which is much more detached than it was on the RS4. Not certain why this is. Neither one compares to the M3. Still, I'm willing to bet that most drivers could probably take one around a track faster than an M3 due to the AWD traction. M3 is the more fierce beast, but it is harder to tame also.
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      07-22-2012, 08:27 AM   #29
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I agree on all points, especially with Xtopherius' views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarThaL View Post
If you are no fan of the Audi 4.2L, then you won't like the M3 motor either. I came from an RS4. I absolutely loved the engine and how it revved. The M3 motor is the same in overall feel. That's one of the things I love about the M3. If you are speaking to the lesser Audi 4.2 motor, it is definitely a different experience, however.

The issue with the RS5 is not the motor, it is the steering feel which is much more detached than it was on the RS4. Not certain why this is. Neither one compares to the M3. Still, I'm willing to bet that most drivers could probably take one around a track faster than an M3 due to the AWD traction. M3 is the more fierce beast, but it is harder to tame also.
As a 15yr Audi enthusiast I admittedly may have missed something special in the RS4. When Audi changed the console in the B6/B7 cars I just couldn't get comfortable with my left leg resting on the console edge all the time, never found a way to drive those without constant fidgeting, discomfort etc... plus I had a heavily modified B5 S4 I ordered in '00 that was just too much fun. The RS4s back then had nothing on healthy Stage3 BiTurbo S4s other than mass.

Fast forward to todays wants/needs - I finally bought another S4 in April last year, '11 3.0 with the SportDiff and a few options. It was a good car overall, very quick with a flash, exhaust and suspension but no matter what I did I couldn't find anything compelling about it. Steering was artificial as you know, chassis wasn't like the old(er) quattro that I knew and drove well, sport diff made it unpredictable under "play" driving and due to all of this it pretty much spent its life in the garage for a year here while I drove my other vehicle.

Another big factor in my flip is the Performance Center which is ~1.5hrs from me in SC. For the past three or so years here I've been fortunate in that my company and some that we partner with hold events there about every quarter or so. I've been to maybe 6 or 7 marketing/drive events so far and the wife and I took our first day class last November. The quality of the facility and people there is top notch, I've even made a friend or two with the driving staff with all the events we've done(another coming up in September with a software partner). I've had a thing for the E9X M3s since they came out however just never found a reason to get one. The forced induction Audis are probably as fast as any M3, track or other, but none offer the tactile feedback the M does.... and the PCD is the venue that helped me see this. Most car buyers out there would never understand this without having track time in the cars and there is no way to test drive a new M3 and get the essence of the car. I never saw the beauty in the E60 M5 either until I experienced it sliding sideways, 90mph at 8000 rpms. What was probably a mess as a daily driver is a thing of beauty at the PCD.

As much as I like turbo cars and all the aftermarket performance potential they have I think BMW is screwing up taking the M cars this route. Saw it with the 1M, and now the M5. The next M3/4/whatever is headed the same direction so I think the time is now for me to get what I think will be the last of the magical cars. I still think the Audi interiors are better and all but the E9X are nice and clean design-wise so think I'll be ok. Think I'm going to really enjoy this car, can't wait to get it in a few weeks =)
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      07-22-2012, 08:40 AM   #30
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I just saw an Rs5 here last night at a local bar... The car looks stunning. Similar to my s5 in a way... But fatter and more meaner. The new light design I didn't like at first... But seeing it on RS just made me change my mind.

I may pay a visit to the local Audi dealer just for kicks ;-)
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      07-22-2012, 08:44 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirz1000 View Post
Fixed

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/coul...dnt-care-less/
"Paul Brians, English professor at Washington State University, points out in an interview with Avi Arditti the difficulty of dealing with idioms that are in the process of changing:


the problem is that as [a new idiom] evolves, you get caught as a user between people who are going with the new pattern and those who know the old pattern and are comfortable with it.

Cautions Brians,

some people will disapprove or think less of you if you say it [the new] way.

He concludes that speakers and writers may choose to use the newer pattern, but that they do so at a certain risk because people who are bothered by the new pattern may be in a position to hire them, or grade their papers, or reject them as social equals.

The Oxford dictionary already recognizes “could care less” as an American colloquialism. Many people, however, regard it as incorrect since it makes no logical sense (if you “could care less” it means that you care at least a bit)."

I stand by my statement... maybe I care a little
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      07-22-2012, 08:59 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odiesback View Post
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/coul...dnt-care-less/
"Paul Brians, English professor at Washington State University, points out in an interview with Avi Arditti the difficulty of dealing with idioms that are in the process of changing:


the problem is that as [a new idiom] evolves, you get caught as a user between people who are going with the new pattern and those who know the old pattern and are comfortable with it.

Cautions Brians,

some people will disapprove or think less of you if you say it [the new] way.

He concludes that speakers and writers may choose to use the newer pattern, but that they do so at a certain risk because people who are bothered by the new pattern may be in a position to hire them, or grade their papers, or reject them as social equals.

The Oxford dictionary already recognizes “could care less” as an American colloquialism. Many people, however, regard it as incorrect since it makes no logical sense (if you “could care less” it means that you care at least a bit)."

I stand by my statement... maybe I care a little
The movie Idiocracy speaks to this.
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      07-22-2012, 10:28 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odiesback View Post
I stand by my statement... maybe I care a little
Well then kind sir I apologize for assuming you meant that you didn't care one bit
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      07-22-2012, 12:14 PM   #34
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rs what?
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      07-22-2012, 12:33 PM   #35
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No free maintenance on RS5. :
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      07-22-2012, 12:41 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirz1000 View Post
Well then kind sir I apologize for assuming you meant that you didn't care one bit
You assumed it right amirz I really dont care about Audis... I was just
playing along for the "couldnt care less" vs "could care less" debate... cheers
and it's all good
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      07-22-2012, 12:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpc3 View Post
As a 15yr Audi enthusiast I admittedly may have missed something special in the RS4. When Audi changed the console in the B6/B7 cars I just couldn't get comfortable with my left leg resting on the console edge all the time, never found a way to drive those without constant fidgeting, discomfort etc... plus I had a heavily modified B5 S4 I ordered in '00 that was just too much fun. The RS4s back then had nothing on healthy Stage3 BiTurbo S4s other than mass.

Fast forward to todays wants/needs - I finally bought another S4 in April last year, '11 3.0 with the SportDiff and a few options. It was a good car overall, very quick with a flash, exhaust and suspension but no matter what I did I couldn't find anything compelling about it. Steering was artificial as you know, chassis wasn't like the old(er) quattro that I knew and drove well, sport diff made it unpredictable under "play" driving and due to all of this it pretty much spent its life in the garage for a year here while I drove my other vehicle.

Another big factor in my flip is the Performance Center which is ~1.5hrs from me in SC. For the past three or so years here I've been fortunate in that my company and some that we partner with hold events there about every quarter or so. I've been to maybe 6 or 7 marketing/drive events so far and the wife and I took our first day class last November. The quality of the facility and people there is top notch, I've even made a friend or two with the driving staff with all the events we've done(another coming up in September with a software partner). I've had a thing for the E9X M3s since they came out however just never found a reason to get one. The forced induction Audis are probably as fast as any M3, track or other, but none offer the tactile feedback the M does.... and the PCD is the venue that helped me see this. Most car buyers out there would never understand this without having track time in the cars and there is no way to test drive a new M3 and get the essence of the car. I never saw the beauty in the E60 M5 either until I experienced it sliding sideways, 90mph at 8000 rpms. What was probably a mess as a daily driver is a thing of beauty at the PCD.

As much as I like turbo cars and all the aftermarket performance potential they have I think BMW is screwing up taking the M cars this route. Saw it with the 1M, and now the M5. The next M3/4/whatever is headed the same direction so I think the time is now for me to get what I think will be the last of the magical cars. I still think the Audi interiors are better and all but the E9X are nice and clean design-wise so think I'll be ok. Think I'm going to really enjoy this car, can't wait to get it in a few weeks =)
I, too, owned an Stage 3 '00 S4 and that huge swell of turbo torque definitely put a grin on your face. I agree completely, however, with the point you make of the "tactile feedback" of the M3. In my mind, the RS4 and M3 are very similar cars. With the M3, you get the "wired to your nervous system" connection. With the RS4, you get the advantage of the AWD grip. Every review I have ever heard, however, say that the RS5 is not even as sharp or focused as the RS4 was, and is easily behind the M3 in terms of its dynamic feel. In the end, the only cars with better overall dynamics and feel than the M3, are top-end pure sports cars.

Turbo motors also have a somewhat detached feeling between the throttle and your foot (goes with the "tactile feedback" thing), and I have always found performance NA motors more satisfying to drive.

I had an opportunity to live with an '12 S4 for a day while my Cayenne was in for service. The car was definitely quick, but aside from that, it provided no where near the level of performance or feel that the M3 does.
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      07-31-2012, 12:38 PM   #38
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I have a friend at work who was interested in an RS5
He asked the local dealer
He sold both of his cars for $5K above sticker
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      07-31-2012, 12:46 PM   #39
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rs5 with 68k base price. damn you lucky people
it should be around 150k Euros base price here
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      07-31-2012, 02:09 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odiesback View Post
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/coul...dnt-care-less/
...The Oxford dictionary already recognizes “could care less” as an American colloquialism. Many people, however, regard it as incorrect since it makes no logical sense (if you “could care less” it means that you care at least a bit)."

I stand by my statement... maybe I care a little
My "American" understanding of this term is that it is said with a tone more or less dripping in irony. Therefore "I could care less" means I really couldn't.

Bruce
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      07-31-2012, 02:13 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtopherus View Post
I have a '13 on order, so I guess I'll chime in here given that I had to make a decision between ordering an RS5 and an M3. Previously I had a '10 S4 and liked it quite a bit, so I was definitely biased toward an RS5. Here's why I chose to order an M3 instead:
  1. No test drives - RS5s have only now appeared at dealers and allocations are going fast. Ordering months ago to receive one now meant you were guessing at the driving dynamics. You didn't have to take possession if you didn't like it, but that's a long time to wait. I guess you could order both and cancel one, but that just seemed like being dishonest.
  2. Priced at MSRP - Most of us here didn't pay MSRP for an M3, but good luck finding a discount on the RS5. This means you're really comparing invoice + $X for an M3 to MSRP for an RS5. The MSRPs are fairly close, and the invoices are fairly close, but MSRP on an RS5 is substantially more than invoice on an M3.
  3. Carbon build-up - The engine is direct injected and previous direct injection naturally-aspirated engine offerings from Audi have unfortunately suffered from carbon build-up that robs the engine of horsepower. The S5 V8 and previous B7 RS4 were known for this.
  4. Weight - The RS5 is roughly the weight of the S4 and I can tell you from driving both that the M3 feels lighter. This is partly because it actually is lighter, but likely also because of better weight balance. The RS5 might hide the weight better than the S4 (and I hope it would), but it's still going to weigh more.

So in the end you have to pay thousands more for what is essentially a comparable car with a few negative points. I will say the interior looks a lot better, and even the S4's interior is (IMHO) more aesthetically appealing than the M3's. If money is no object and you want a more exclusive car, I'd say go with the RS5. Otherwise, I think the M3 will still end up being just as good or even better.
i like your thought. I thought the carbon buildup on the 4.2 was fixed by Audi in the current generation of S5?
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      08-01-2012, 01:53 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
i like your thought. I thought the carbon buildup on the 4.2 was fixed by Audi in the current generation of S5?
Prior to the switch to the supercharged V6, the 4.2 V8 in the S5 definitely had carbon build-up issues. The image below comes from this thread. You can read more about the whole issue here.



Maybe Audi has finally addressed the issue, but the engine is just a slightly modified version of what you'll find in the old RS4 and V8 R8 and I doubt there's much they can change at this point. The problem isn't insurmountable; the build-up can be removed. It's just something you'd have to be aware of and eventually deal with. Obviously it's not a huge issue if you choose to lease an RS5.

Last edited by Xtopherus; 08-02-2012 at 03:01 AM. Reason: Added links for reference
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      08-01-2012, 03:44 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
No free maintenance on RS5. :
Your maintenance isn't free. It's rolled into the MSRP of the car. Another point for BMW marketing.
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      08-01-2012, 09:00 AM   #44
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Free feel to share links. There's no crackdown on information here...

Anyways, heard anything from the 4.2 R8 camp as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtopherus View Post
Prior to the switch to the supercharged V6, the 4.2 V8 in the S5 definitely had carbon build-up issues. The image below is from an S5 thread, from 2010, on one of the Audi boards. I'd link the thread directly, but I'm not sure if that's frowned upon here.



Maybe Audi has finally addressed the issue, but the engine is just a slightly modified version of what you'll find in the old RS4 and V8 R8 and I doubt there's much they can change at this point. The problem isn't insurmountable; the build-up can be removed. It's just something you'd have to be aware of and eventually deal with. Obviously it's not a huge issue if you choose to lease an RS5.
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