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      07-31-2007, 02:34 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB Nevada View Post
what does trap speeed mean?
lets see... Trap speed is the speed that is recorded when a certain distance or time is gained....
I hope i explained it correctly
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      07-31-2007, 02:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m_bazeepaymon View Post
lets see... Trap speed is the speed that is recorded when a certain distance or time is gained....
I hope i explained it correctly

Or, the top speed reached at the end of the 1/4 mile dragstrip.
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      07-31-2007, 02:52 PM   #47
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Never fear Mkoesel, check out the new Vert pics in the photo/media thread posted today. It's so Butch and Bad that I doubt a lot of posers and trophy wives will be buying it. Besides, they have all gone over to the 650i Vert..
Thanks for the tip on the pics!
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      07-31-2007, 03:21 PM   #48
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Swamp, the EU is BMW's largest market. The US is the largest market for a country, but if you look at BMW's numbers the EU market totally dwarfs the US.
Not true for the E92 M3. They plan to sell 50% of them here.
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      07-31-2007, 03:30 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
Or, the top speed reached at the end of the 1/4 mile dragstrip.
Trap speed is averaged over the last 60 feet of the 1/4 mile run, so it'll be slightly less than the peak speed at the end of the dragstrip.

Last edited by Garissimo; 07-31-2007 at 08:30 PM.
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      07-31-2007, 04:59 PM   #50
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Not true for the E92 M3. They plan to sell 50% of them here.
Of course that remains to be seen. Historically it has not been the case.
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      07-31-2007, 06:02 PM   #51
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Of course that remains to be seen. Historically it has not been the case.
Gehard Ricter says differently.
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      07-31-2007, 07:23 PM   #52
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Gehard Ricter says differently.
Ergo quid?
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      07-31-2007, 08:19 PM   #53
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Yes it has

Quote:
Originally Posted by RI_RS4 View Post
Of course that remains to be seen. Historically it has not been the case.
At least with E46 M3. Total E46 M3 sales (including CSL!):

EU: 41962
US: 43779
US% = 51%
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      07-31-2007, 09:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
At least with E46 M3. Total E46 M3 sales (including CSL!):

EU: 41962
US: 43779
US% = 51%
While I'm sure you are correct, I'm not really clear why this is important (except for the fact that every time one of Henry Ford's compatriates imports a car it makes the US$ cheaper for the rest of us )
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      07-31-2007, 11:14 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
At least with E46 M3. Total E46 M3 sales (including CSL!):

EU: 41962
US: 43779
US% = 51%
I stand corrected. Hopefully this is a large enough market to convince BMW to bring over the CSL. I'd like to see it on this side of the pond myself.
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      08-01-2007, 01:23 AM   #56
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I am surprised there is not more noise about the PORKY weight of the M3. After all the early discussion we had about it weighing in at less than 3500 (we were led to believe this by the BMW press info) it is appalling they let it tilt the scales at 3650 lbs (according to this C & D article)!!

I thought they may have gone all-out for weight savings, but I think instead they used weight reduction as more of a marketing tool than a performance enhancer (viagra??). I am surprised the CF roof only saves 11 pounds - but it is good for marketing! They did not bother with aluminum doors or lighter weight glass. Actually, they did very little about reducing the weight, and then they made a huge deal about the engine weighing less than an IRON block inline six. This is nice and all, but it is only because it is an aluminum block vs. an iron block.

If the M3 price comes in over $60K, they will be going head-on against the Cayman S. Porsche will soon upgrade the engines in its line by 20 HP across the board, and a 320 HP Cayman S will seem like the better option. It will weigh just over 3000 lbs, with mid-engine handling, great sounds, Porsche panache, good quality, and (gasp!) excellent gas mileage (20/28). Then factor in that it will be almost as fast as the M3, quicker around a track, and way more fun on a back road and the Porsche seems like the better package. OK, it won't have a back seat, but how many M3 owners really use their's?

Although I am sure the M3 is a great overall package, this extra weigh will undoubtedly take away a lot of the liveliness and feel of the previous generations. Plus, although faster than the E46, the extra weight will prevent it from being THAT much faster (a 4 MPH increase in 1/4 trap speed is not a huge improvement in light of being 8 years newer, $10K more expensive, and displacing 25% more CCs).

I sure hope the CSL comes to the US!
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      08-01-2007, 02:37 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I am surprised there is not more noise about the PORKY weight of the M3. After all the early discussion we had about it weighing in at less than 3500 (we were led to believe this by the BMW press info) it is appalling they let it tilt the scales at 3650 lbs (according to this C & D article)!!

I thought they may have gone all-out for weight savings, but I think instead they used weight reduction as more of a marketing tool than a performance enhancer (viagra??). I am surprised the CF roof only saves 11 pounds - but it is good for marketing! They did not bother with aluminum doors or lighter weight glass. Actually, they did very little about reducing the weight, and then they made a huge deal about the engine weighing less than an IRON block inline six. This is nice and all, but it is only because it is an aluminum block vs. an iron block.

If the M3 price comes in over $60K, they will be going head-on against the Cayman S. Porsche will soon upgrade the engines in its line by 20 HP across the board, and a 320 HP Cayman S will seem like the better option. It will weigh just over 3000 lbs, with mid-engine handling, great sounds, Porsche panache, good quality, and (gasp!) excellent gas mileage (20/28). Then factor in that it will be almost as fast as the M3, quicker around a track, and way more fun on a back road and the Porsche seems like the better package. OK, it won't have a back seat, but how many M3 owners really use their's?

Although I am sure the M3 is a great overall package, this extra weigh will undoubtedly take away a lot of the liveliness and feel of the previous generations. Plus, although faster than the E46, the extra weight will prevent it from being THAT much faster (a 4 MPH increase in 1/4 trap speed is not a huge improvement in light of being 8 years newer, $10K more expensive, and displacing 25% more CCs).

I sure hope the CSL comes to the US!

The new E90 M3 weighs a mer 80kg more than the E46 M3..!!

It's center of gravity is lower in hight, it's outside weight(fenders, trrunk, hood, facia) has been massed inward. BMW strived hard to not only control the weight of the new M, but to also move it mass inward so it's more agile and handles better.

The car just looks big, thus it seems heavy!!






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      08-01-2007, 04:36 AM   #58
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Besides, try getting four in a Cayman...
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      08-01-2007, 08:46 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I am surprised there is not more noise about the PORKY weight of the M3. After all the early discussion we had about it weighing in at less than 3500 (we were led to believe this by the BMW press info) it is appalling they let it tilt the scales at 3650 lbs (according to this C & D article)!!
The weight is definitely discouraging. And C&D's figure jibes with the official weight given at bmw.com (1655kg = 3650 lbs.). For comparison, the 335i is listed at 1600kg = 3530 lbs on bmw.com, and that is consistent with the figure given at bmwusa.com.

Having said that, this thread is worth a read:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...t=70655&page=2

That could explain BMW's press info. Regardless though, using the same standards as past M3's the car is definitely heavier.

Quote:
OK, it won't have a back seat, but how many M3 owners really use their's?
I use mine routinely, but I hear what you are saying. On the other hand, if someone really doesn't need a backseat then why even consider cars that have them? There are purer sports cars on the market, such as the Cayman you mention, or even a Vette.
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      08-01-2007, 12:36 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I am surprised there is not more noise about the PORKY weight of the M3. After all the early discussion we had about it weighing in at less than 3500 (we were led to believe this by the BMW press info) it is appalling they let it tilt the scales at 3650 lbs (according to this C & D article)!!

I thought they may have gone all-out for weight savings, but I think instead they used weight reduction as more of a marketing tool than a performance enhancer (viagra??). I am surprised the CF roof only saves 11 pounds - but it is good for marketing! They did not bother with aluminum doors or lighter weight glass. Actually, they did very little about reducing the weight, and then they made a huge deal about the engine weighing less than an IRON block inline six. This is nice and all, but it is only because it is an aluminum block vs. an iron block.
Have a look at my post here and the link in the post as well. I think what they did on weight was impressive. With the weight added to go from 335i->M3 without a real effort on weight we could have easily been at 3800+.

Also it does have an Al hood, plastic fenders, lots of hollow components and like mkoesel said there was an effort to reduce the intertia as well as weight.

With regards to the Cayman S (current model) the M3 is going to smoke this thing in almost every speed contest and track around. As fun to drive, maybe not, but checkered flag - for sure.
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      08-01-2007, 08:42 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Have a look at my post here and the link in the post as well. I think what they did on weight was impressive. With the weight added to go from 335i->M3 without a real effort on weight we could have easily been at 3800+.

Also it does have an Al hood, plastic fenders, lots of hollow components and like mkoesel said there was an effort to reduce the intertia as well as weight.

With regards to the Cayman S (current model) the M3 is going to smoke this thing in almost every speed contest and track around. As fun to drive, maybe not, but checkered flag - for sure.
After reading this thread http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70655 pointed out to me by my friend mkoesel, I am even more confused about what the actual weight of the M3 will be. I am not sure Car and Driver weighed the car or just quoted BMW's number (which may have included a passenger plus 33 lbs cargo). ALL of the mags are quoting similar numbers for weight, but since no one has done a full test (where they have the car for several days and get to do whatever they want to it) I don't know if the weight is correct.

If it DOES have a true curb weight of 3650 I think this is a disappointing 235 lbs increase in weight over the E46 M3's 3415 lbs, which was a disappointing 240 lbs increase over the E36 M3's 3175 lbs. From the US E36 M3's 240 HP increased to the 333 HP in the E46, a 93 HP and 39% gain. The E46 M3's price rose about $5K from a base of $42K to just over $47K.

The E92's V8 will have 414 HP vs. 333 HP, or an 81 HP increase (a 24% increase), which pales in comparison to the leap forward made by the E46. Then factor in a price jump of probably $10K or more for less of a performance gain than the E46 over the E36 and we all start to wonder if the M3 is being designed for enthusiasts or more for M-posers (let's face it, M has become a big status symbol vs. its more humble and focused "Motorsport" roots).

SWAMP2, IMHO a 320 HP Cayman S (assuming it gets the 3.6 Liter from the 911 in the near future) weighing <3100 lbs will definitely keep up with, if not beat, the M3 around most tracks (except maybe really fast, HP-driven tracks). It will have more grip for its given weight due to similar size contact patch (245 front, 265-75 rear) and 15-20% less weight and will have nearly the same power-to-weight ratio (within 10%) plus mid-engine handling and great brakes.

IMHO the E36 M3 was (for its time) a great all-around performer and was a good value for the performance/feel/quality/handling, etc. The E46 was a whole league faster than the E36 M3 while losing some of the feel of the E36 but making up for it in other ways. It also was a great performance value for its time at about $50K.

An E92 M3 weighing 3650 lbs and costing well into the $60s with any options will run into some TOUGH competition that the other M3's avoided by being introduced at a time when there were fewer high-value performance cars and when the M3s were priced lower. I think most of us, if faced with having to pay $65K for an M3, will now be cross shopping some other great players (Cayman S, GTR, RS5, C63, Z06, 911). We will see if BMW bit off more than it can chew.. .
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      08-02-2007, 08:49 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I think most of us, if faced with having to pay $65K for an M3, will now be cross shopping some other great players (Cayman S, GTR, RS5, C63, Z06, 911). We will see if BMW bit off more than it can chew.. .
And don't forget the M3's little brothers - the 335i and 135i. Not to mention the G37. These would probably be the worst performers among the others you mention, but they are also by far the cheapest.
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      08-02-2007, 08:54 AM   #63
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I don't think M have bit off more than they can chew, they're one of the most advanced performance departments there is, regardless of price. The above cars may be faster by way of more HP or lower weight, but for the price, the M3 battles far above its station.
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      08-02-2007, 01:13 PM   #64
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good post.

and war eagle.
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      08-02-2007, 01:33 PM   #65
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Thank you for the post. Kick ass review, I was getting pretty down on all the negative crap, I should of had more faith those fricken Germans now how to make 'em as they say. I love my 2005 325i for goodness sake!
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      08-02-2007, 02:10 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
After reading this thread http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70655 pointed out to me by my friend mkoesel, I am even more confused about what the actual weight of the M3 will be. I am not sure Car and Driver weighed the car or just quoted BMW's number (which may have included a passenger plus 33 lbs cargo). ALL of the mags are quoting similar numbers for weight, but since no one has done a full test (where they have the car for several days and get to do whatever they want to it) I don't know if the weight is correct.

If it DOES have a true curb weight of 3650 I think this is a disappointing 235 lbs increase in weight over the E46 M3's 3415 lbs, which was a disappointing 240 lbs increase over the E36 M3's 3175 lbs. From the US E36 M3's 240 HP increased to the 333 HP in the E46, a 93 HP and 39% gain. The E46 M3's price rose about $5K from a base of $42K to just over $47K.

The E92's V8 will have 414 HP vs. 333 HP, or an 81 HP increase (a 24% increase), which pales in comparison to the leap forward made by the E46. Then factor in a price jump of probably $10K or more for less of a performance gain than the E46 over the E36 and we all start to wonder if the M3 is being designed for enthusiasts or more for M-posers (let's face it, M has become a big status symbol vs. its more humble and focused "Motorsport" roots).

SWAMP2, IMHO a 320 HP Cayman S (assuming it gets the 3.6 Liter from the 911 in the near future) weighing <3100 lbs will definitely keep up with, if not beat, the M3 around most tracks (except maybe really fast, HP-driven tracks). It will have more grip for its given weight due to similar size contact patch (245 front, 265-75 rear) and 15-20% less weight and will have nearly the same power-to-weight ratio (within 10%) plus mid-engine handling and great brakes.

IMHO the E36 M3 was (for its time) a great all-around performer and was a good value for the performance/feel/quality/handling, etc. The E46 was a whole league faster than the E36 M3 while losing some of the feel of the E36 but making up for it in other ways. It also was a great performance value for its time at about $50K.

An E92 M3 weighing 3650 lbs and costing well into the $60s with any options will run into some TOUGH competition that the other M3's avoided by being introduced at a time when there were fewer high-value performance cars and when the M3s were priced lower. I think most of us, if faced with having to pay $65K for an M3, will now be cross shopping some other great players (Cayman S, GTR, RS5, C63, Z06, 911). We will see if BMW bit off more than it can chew.. .
You're right about the point, that the increasing weight of todays cars is kinda problem. But your assumption that many will be cross shopping to RS5 and C63 is of little consequence then. Why would someone who thinks the M3 has become to heavy choose an even heavier car?

Best regards, south
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