Jalopnik: "The Death Of BMW’s M Brand"

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by Leonardo629

BMW takes a regular series car and enhance the performance aspect of the car.

I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.

[car_fan]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.

+1

[ATS]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.

+1

I really like your idea, but I'm afraid that if the M Division ventures into developing such a car, it would be aimed at something like the Audi R8 to justify the extremely high development costs of an exclusive M model.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

We'll see soon just how much further M Division can advance the state of the art with the next generation M3/M4 and their F8x chassis. This new designation vs. the F3x chassis on which the M version will be based signifies that they have some new tricks to show us this time around. Originally the speculation focused on carbon fiber, especially body panels, but newer rumors suggest that the focus will be heavy use of aluminum, both in the body shell and in subframes and chassis components.

Speaking of your 7 series and of carbon fiber, the next generation of that car is slated to make much heavier use of the material than in any past BMW. Here we will likely see some use of CFRP body panels and perhaps suspension components. Later these will make their way into other BMW products including future M vehicles.

[NKRZ]

I can't imagine what gives this sort of person the confidence or the conviction to stump out a broad condemnation of one the worlds most respected automotive icons.

I have been fortunate enough to own 3 generations of M5 and, yes, an X6M and while they all had a weakness of some sort, no other car has come close to offering the best of all worlds package that any of them do.

I miss the rev crazy engines of the past, but appreciate BMW's courage and vision to move to a more socially acceptable norm and somehow make it work in the M type of way when it comes to Turbos for the environment. I have to admit I hated the the very notion of SUV combined with the letter M, but one test drive in a GP rated circuit where Audi RS4s and M3 where trading laps converted me.

Perhaps, this fellow needs to do the same, open his mind to new things and appreciate that strange new things can actually be fun.

Also, as awful as marketing gimmicks may seem, if they allow manufacturers to make the money that funds great cars R&D costs, then keep them coming.

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by ATS

I really like your idea, but I'm afraid that if the M Division ventures into developing such a car, it would be aimed at something like the Audi R8 to justify the extremely high development costs of an exclusive M model.

You're probably right -- I'm just dreaming out loud from the perspective of someone who is an old school M fan at heart, but who also understands how and why BMW is adapting the M brand to the modern world.

For BMW to make an "M Cayman" -- a car that I think would bring immeasurable added excitement to the brand -- they *could* start with a bespoke chassis and leverage their mainstream parts bin for most of the mechanical bits.

The 1M is a seriously cool car, but imagine how much better it could have been if the same (or slightly modified) mechanicals could have been stuffed into a purpose-built 2 seat chassis (smaller, lighter, lower center of gravity) and body that make ample use of lightweight materials. I've never driven a 1M or Cayman R, but almost every review I read said the Cayman edged the 1M as a driver's car because it's a naturally lighter and better balanced car from the ground up. BMW made the most out of the E82, but the modified E90 chassis foundation has inherent limitations as a sports car.

So, to belabor the point, I think an M chassis is all that's keeping BMW from building a Porsche-equivalent (or maybe even better) sports car that could really excite the old school M base. Since the 1M cost around $45-50K, I'll blindly hypothesize that this car could go for $70-80K if BMW can re-use many of the basics and hold back on unnecessary electronics and other non-performance features.

IMO, a 350HP, 3,000 lb. 2-seater M sports coupe for $70-80K would be a winner that bridges old school and new school -- not far from the old Z4M, but modernized as needed for the new reality (turbos, etc.) But I also think you're correct that BMW would aim higher (if not necessarily better) with an R8-ish car showcasing all the latest technology bits as that seems to be their push these days.

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

We'll see soon just how much further M Division can advance the state of the art with the next generation M3/M4 and their F8x chassis. This new designation vs. the F3x chassis on which the M version will be based signifies that they have some new tricks to show us this time around. Originally the speculation focused on carbon fiber, especially body panels, but newer rumors suggest that the focus will be heavy use of aluminum, both in the body shell and in subframes and chassis components.

Speaking of your 7 series and of carbon fiber, the next generation of that car is slated to make much heavier use of the material than in any past BMW. Here we will likely see some use of CFRP body panels and perhaps suspension components. Later these will make their way into other BMW products including future M vehicles.

I hope you're right and the next M3 surprises us all by supplanting lightweight materials in the chassis and body at a deeper level than BMW has ever attempted before. You know how people talk about "peak oil?" Hopefully we'll all look back at the last 2 decades and call it "peak automobile weight" when cars rapidly grew in size, features and weight to meet regulatory and market demands but before lightweight materials enjoyed economies of scale to offset the growth trends.

[checkmate]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.

+1. M needs to stop tuning the series cars only and focus on making bespoke platforms that brings the excitement back again.

[JRV]

I HATE BMWs!!!


Whoops wrong forum

[tonyzale]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

That dude needs to get laid. Seriously, I don't care much for the 'lime rock' edition either, but the lengths people will go to bitch about shit is beyond me.

I vote someone create a seperate "whiners post".

[LarThaL]

Can someone tell me a mainstream manufacturer that isn't making their cars more all-encompassing or multi-functional. Many people mention Porsche. Look at the luxury and features of a 911 today vs one from 1986.

It's not that there are no more "real" M cars, its just that they are offering more than just performance which is what the market demands. Hey...if we went back to hand crank windows, no A/C, etc, etc, wouldn't that save weight and be better for performance? Wouldn't you have better steering feel with no power assist whatsoever? How far do you want to go with this?

Ask yourself this: Has the performance of any M-car been diminished from one generation to the next?

The badge whoring to non-M models is whole different thing. My dealer has a 640i gran coupe with M door sills and an M steering wheel. I laughed.

[M3Denver]

Originally Posted by DARK_M3

I understand. The only problem is that when someone says they drive a Porsche nowadays, you never know if they are going to hit the track or take the kids to a soccer game.

fair point

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.

Absolutely not going to happen.

A big reason we even have M cars is that they are based off of much less sporty, much higher volume production cars. BMW won't do this not because they can't (and they could do it, probably quite brilliantly). They have choices about where to invest profits and buying more plants and machines to crank out even more base 3ers and 5ers while making them a bit lighter is where they have chosen to invest. It would almost for sure, even if they developed a great true sports car or sports line, be a bad FINANCIAL decision with not enough return on investment. Thus it ain't gonna happen. Pretty simple. On the flip side, almost by definition, if they could do so they very likely would.

[acorradi87]

This is the email I just wrote the the Jalopnik article's author:

Hi Bill -

I had to write you after reading your article on Jalopnik. I have respected BMW my whole life and have always revered their cars and engineering, but as of the last year and a half to two years I've been increasingly concerned with the direction they're taking. While the M models are certainly lacking, with huge increases in weight and being over filled with adjustable everything, other models in the lineup have the same problems.

Take the F10 5 series: I purchased a new e60 550i M Sport back in 2009 and have loved it ever since. While I can understand the new trend to turbocharge, I love the NA engine and the fact that the suspension is static. I feel like it's one of the last high-end BMW's that's fairly simple. In 2010 I was invited to a driving event at Weatherford BMW in Berkeley, California. While they had other models there, I really just wanted to drive the new 550i. As I drove to the dealership I was worried that, after driving the new 550, I would get back in mine and think, "damn, the new one is so much better", however, the complete opposite happened. When I got back in my car, I had a huge grin as I got on the on-ramp to I-80. By comparison, the new 550 felt heavier (which it is, by about 400 lbs.) and more isolated from the road. I could barely hear the engine. Everything just felt watered-down, like it was meant for a 70 year old CEO, not someone who admires the sport in sport sedan. At 25 years old, I have zero interest in driving an 'old man car'. My car felt more agile, had more seering feel (is the fuel savings that much better with electric assist? Not at the expense of steering feel), and I could actually hear the engine. While I was happy that the drive reinforced the love I have for my 550, it made me sad to think of that's happening to BMW. I test-drive a car that is brand new and was just released months earlier, and by comparison with my car, while it was refreshed in 2008, was originally released in 2003 and has the more satisfying driving experience of the two... how is that progress?

It's common knowledge that the 3 series is the baby of the lineup with the majority of sales, and they clearly didn't want to tinker with it too much by keeping the weight the same. Even then, all the adjustable this and that and all the technology they employ to make the car drive 'better' actually achieves the opposite as it further isolates the driver from the road. It's as if BMW is too worried that standard suspension alone cannot produce satisfying driving results, even though it did for decades.

Although I've always been a Bimmerphile, I can't follow BMW blindly into whatever unfortunate business decisions it chooses to make. The recent Car and Driver comparison test between the new M5, e63 AMG, and S6, in which the M5 came last, was really an eye opener (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test). If they want to water down their regular models to increase sales, I guess there's nothing to be done. But to decrease the 'driver's car' quality that used to be the hallmark of the M models is truly disappointing.

Thanks again for the courage to say what you did.

[luis_m3]

Mod, please close this thread; this has turned into an "I hate BMW for making too much money... I wished they made track-ready rockets from now on, even though I hardly ever track the damn thing anyways", or "The M Division is letting me down lately, I may have to move on to a Porsche".

To all; no, I am by no means a pro driver or constantly tracking my car, but I LOVE the fact that my M3 is a great daily driver, family car, and I whenever I choose to... I can take it to a track and just enjoy what this beautiful machine is best at.

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by luis_m3

Mod, please close this thread; this has turned into an "I hate BMW for making too much money... I wished they made track-ready rockets from now on, even though I hardly ever track the damn thing anyways", or "The M Division is letting me down lately, I may have to move on to a Porsche".

To all; no, I am by no means a pro driver or constantly tracking my car, but I LOVE the fact that my M3 is a great daily driver, family car, and I whenever I choose to... I can take it to a track and just enjoy what this beautiful machine is best at.

who are you to ask a Mod to close the thread?

you don't like the thread, it's this simple: DON'T CLICK ON IT!

[Richbot]

People who think BMW M has strayed from its roots have no idea what those roots are.

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by acorradi87

This is the email I just wrote the the Jalopnik article's author:

Hi Bill -

I had to write you after reading your article on Jalopnik. I have respected BMW my whole life and have always revered their cars and engineering, but as of the last year and a half to two years I've been increasingly concerned with the direction they're taking. While the M models are certainly lacking, with huge increases in weight and being over filled with adjustable everything, other models in the lineup have the same problems.

Take the F10 5 series: I purchased a new e60 550i M Sport back in 2009 and have loved it ever since. While I can understand the new trend to turbocharge, I love the NA engine and the fact that the suspension is static. I feel like it's one of the last high-end BMW's that's fairly simple. In 2010 I was invited to a driving event at Weatherford BMW in Berkeley, California. While they had other models there, I really just wanted to drive the new 550i. As I drove to the dealership I was worried that, after driving the new 550, I would get back in mine and think, "damn, the new one is so much better", however, the complete opposite happened. When I got back in my car, I had a huge grin as I got on the on-ramp to I-80. By comparison, the new 550 felt heavier (which it is, by about 400 lbs.) and more isolated from the road. I could barely hear the engine. Everything just felt watered-down, like it was meant for a 70 year old CEO, not someone who admires the sport in sport sedan. At 25 years old, I have zero interest in driving an 'old man car'. My car felt more agile, had more seering feel (is the fuel savings that much better with electric assist? Not at the expense of steering feel), and I could actually hear the engine. While I was happy that the drive reinforced the love I have for my 550, it made me sad to think of that's happening to BMW. I test-drive a car that is brand new and was just released months earlier, and by comparison with my car, while it was refreshed in 2008, was originally released in 2003 and has the more satisfying driving experience of the two... how is that progress?

It's common knowledge that the 3 series is the baby of the lineup with the majority of sales, and they clearly didn't want to tinker with it too much by keeping the weight the same. Even then, all the adjustable this and that and all the technology they employ to make the car drive 'better' actually achieves the opposite as it further isolates the driver from the road. It's as if BMW is too worried that standard suspension alone cannot produce satisfying driving results, even though it did for decades.

Although I've always been a Bimmerphile, I can't follow BMW blindly into whatever unfortunate business decisions it chooses to make. The recent Car and Driver comparison test between the new M5, e63 AMG, and S6, in which the M5 came last, was really an eye opener (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test). If they want to water down their regular models to increase sales, I guess there's nothing to be done. But to decrease the 'driver's car' quality that used to be the hallmark of the M models is truly disappointing.

Thanks again for the courage to say what you did.

Did he write that blog while running into a burning house rescuing a bunch of kittens?

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by Richbot

People who think BMW M has strayed from its roots have no idea what those roots are.

CLEARLY!

[bdaddylo]

Originally Posted by acorradi87

This is the email I just wrote the the Jalopnik article's author:

Hi Bill -

I had to write you after reading your article on Jalopnik. I have respected BMW my whole life and have always revered their cars and engineering, but as of the last year and a half to two years I've been increasingly concerned with the direction they're taking. While the M models are certainly lacking, with huge increases in weight and being over filled with adjustable everything, other models in the lineup have the same problems.

Take the F10 5 series: I purchased a new e60 550i M Sport back in 2009 and have loved it ever since. While I can understand the new trend to turbocharge, I love the NA engine and the fact that the suspension is static. I feel like it's one of the last high-end BMW's that's fairly simple. In 2010 I was invited to a driving event at Weatherford BMW in Berkeley, California. While they had other models there, I really just wanted to drive the new 550i. As I drove to the dealership I was worried that, after driving the new 550, I would get back in mine and think, "damn, the new one is so much better", however, the complete opposite happened. When I got back in my car, I had a huge grin as I got on the on-ramp to I-80. By comparison, the new 550 felt heavier (which it is, by about 400 lbs.) and more isolated from the road. I could barely hear the engine. Everything just felt watered-down, like it was meant for a 70 year old CEO, not someone who admires the sport in sport sedan. At 25 years old, I have zero interest in driving an 'old man car'. My car felt more agile, had more seering feel (is the fuel savings that much better with electric assist? Not at the expense of steering feel), and I could actually hear the engine. While I was happy that the drive reinforced the love I have for my 550, it made me sad to think of that's happening to BMW. I test-drive a car that is brand new and was just released months earlier, and by comparison with my car, while it was refreshed in 2008, was originally released in 2003 and has the more satisfying driving experience of the two... how is that progress?

It's common knowledge that the 3 series is the baby of the lineup with the majority of sales, and they clearly didn't want to tinker with it too much by keeping the weight the same. Even then, all the adjustable this and that and all the technology they employ to make the car drive 'better' actually achieves the opposite as it further isolates the driver from the road. It's as if BMW is too worried that standard suspension alone cannot produce satisfying driving results, even though it did for decades.

Although I've always been a Bimmerphile, I can't follow BMW blindly into whatever unfortunate business decisions it chooses to make. The recent Car and Driver comparison test between the new M5, e63 AMG, and S6, in which the M5 came last, was really an eye opener (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test). If they want to water down their regular models to increase sales, I guess there's nothing to be done. But to decrease the 'driver's car' quality that used to be the hallmark of the M models is truly disappointing.

Thanks again for the courage to say what you did.

LOL

I had the same experience as you. When I test drove the F10 550i it felt like I was driving a Lexus. Unfortunately, I parted ways with my E60 550i and moved into the 1M over the M3. I love the S65, but the E9X is too porky. I'm a little disappointed that the M division wasn't able to achieve significant weight savings on the 1M, but it's the closest thing to what M used to stand for.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Richbot

People who think BMW M has strayed from its roots have no idea what those roots are.

SO TRUE.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by davesaddiction

Thanks for the tip - hope it works for me to join you all! Looks like the perfect way to break my M in at the track. I'm guessing this will be a vastly different experience from the time I took my old Mazda 3s hatch (not Speed!) out there for an HST day. I was probably the slowest car out there, but I sure had a lot of fun. Will be nice to have twice the torque to pull out of the tight corners!

Absolutely.

the HST days can be a little ummm.. interesting.... a BMW CCA event will be a bit more structured (read: safer).. Hope to see you there!