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      07-11-2012, 10:38 PM   #287
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I agree about 99% with the article, and I've been ranting about the exact same thing for a while now. The 1% that I don't agree with is that I don't believe that BMW M is dead (yet). Even when/if it dies, the M brand will still be showing up all over BMW's products, but it will not have the same meaning it used to have.

Below you will see something I posted a couple of weeks ago regarding the new M6 that falls directly in line with what is being discussed in this thread:

"I have no doubt that it would be fun to drive in the same way that any +500hp car would be, but my main problem with this car is that it keeps moving farther away from what an M car should be (or used to be).

The reason why I fell in love with BMW M cars was due to the level of performance, daily driver usability, and more importantly, a level of driver involvement usually reserved for much more expensive pure sports cars.

Unfortunately this latest generation of M cars (new M5, M6, X5M, X6M) seem to have forgotten that key characteristic and therefore are moving away from what made them so brilliant for so many years.

It seems that the marketing department is having too much influence in the decisions being made at BMW M.

I really hope that the upcoming M3 breaks drastically away from this trend, but something tells me that it won't."
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      07-12-2012, 12:01 AM   #288
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Wow! Sorry, this guy just sounds bitter that the world doesn't work exactly like he thinks it should. That article sounded like a spoiled child having a tantrum.
Simple facts, no mass producing car company in existence, super car makers don't count, is in business just to please the enthusiast. We are a niche, in most cases an afterthought. But not with BMW. I think they put more thought for the enthusiast in their product than anybody else out there. And if they want to make less expensive cars more sporty by incorporating M components, more power to them. We should be happy that they are trying all they can to encourage more enthusiasts. Not whine like a bunch of stuck up M crybabies.
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      07-12-2012, 12:20 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisance View Post
Those of you who agree with the author: how many of you have a daily-driven car like an Lotus Exige? How long did you own it for? Unless you live in Japan where the roads are smoother than a pool table, I'd guess "not that long".

Note that even Lotus has gone "soft" with the Evora.

How many of you "true enthusiasts" are ready to pay 120K Euros for an M3? Because that's what the M3 GT4 costs. So why are you bitching about it here and not out there racing?

It's like the age-old Mac vs PC thing. Apple doesn't know how to make a sub-$1000 laptop that doesn't suck (in their view). You are free to disagree, just like you can most definitely make a go-kart beat the pants off any supercar. But I wouldn't like a go-kart as a daily driver.
The GT4 is not a street car, so why are you comparing it to a street car? If you meant GTS, you can't just convert the Euros to dollars. If BMW would have made more copies of the car, they would have cost a lot less since the cost of engineering it would be spread out.
You can daily drive an E30 M3, E36 M3 (though we didn't get the real version), and an E46 M3. All versions had track oriented editions with TRUE performance improvements. The Lime Rock Edition does not. That's what the author was not happy about. Why couldn't BMW just give us at LEAST the brakes from the GTS? Why not the coilovers? Keep the stock engine to save money. At least that would be a true performance improvement.


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Originally Posted by TMR013 View Post
Wow! Sorry, this guy just sounds bitter that the world doesn't work exactly like he thinks it should. That article sounded like a spoiled child having a tantrum.
Simple facts, no mass producing car company in existence, super car makers don't count, is in business just to please the enthusiast. We are a niche, in most cases an afterthought. But not with BMW. I think they put more thought for the enthusiast in their product than anybody else out there. And if they want to make less expensive cars more sporty by incorporating M components, more power to them. We should be happy that they are trying all they can to encourage more enthusiasts. Not whine like a bunch of stuck up M crybabies.
Spoken by someone who has NO IDEA what //M used to stand for.

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      07-12-2012, 12:31 AM   #290
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Bingo!! Nope!

It's all about ///Money! That's why Porsche has an SUV and 4 door saloon now. You think a business that has the potential to make money gives a crap about every enthusiast nearly dropping over dead at the announcement of an SUV in development? Not a chance.
Porsche has kept its core cars though and has made them amazing... and after all the changes, they are still badass.
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      07-12-2012, 12:43 AM   #291
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Spoken by someone who has NO IDEA what //M used to stand for.
And I could just as easily say, spoken like one of those M crybabies I was talking about. But not going to get into it with you.
If you can only accept your narrow view, enjoy it.

Peace.
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      07-12-2012, 01:11 AM   #292
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And I could just as easily say, spoken like one of those M crybabies I was talking about. But not going to get into it with you.
If you can only accept your narrow view, enjoy it.

Peace.
//M had a focused, narrow view before. You obviously don't know what //M used to stand for when I became, fan of //M cars. That's too bad, because they used to be special cars. Now I can afford them, and they're turning into AMG's.

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Porsche has kept its core cars though and has made them amazing... and after all the changes, they are still badass.
Thank you. Porsche NEEDS the Cayenne and Panamera to stay in business. When the World economic crisis hit, Cayman and 911 sales TANKED, but Cayenne remained pretty strong. Panamera sales are also doing well and allows Porsche to make cars like the GT3/GT2/Cayman R/Boxster Spyder, then the GT3-RS, GT2-RS and even a GT3-RS 4.0.
BMW is diluting //M for bigger profits. Not to stay in business or make special cars that appeal to it's core fans.

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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

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      07-12-2012, 02:00 AM   #293
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Porsche has kept its core cars though and has made them amazing... and after all the changes, they are still badass.
I understand. The only problem is that when someone says they drive a Porsche nowadays, you never know if they are going to hit the track or take the kids to a soccer game.
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      07-12-2012, 02:23 AM   #294
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Lots of truth there and thanks for nailing it.

I personally would like to know the percentage of BMW drivers who BMWAG considers as "enthusiast" loyal customers. Even though we are all represented here and on many other BMW sites, we are a very small group of guys/gals of the "old" BMW brand comparied to what BMW is now: "Driving Image" for the masses. And anyone will pay for it.
I myself finally felt this "driving image" and being left out as an enthusiast on this last 1M rollout. BMW spent 2 years creating this "1M model", teased us at the BMWCCA fest with fenders and videos, then only released 1000 of them for purchase. Given I was not able to pay the extra $20K "market adjustment fee" for 1 of 3 that were lucky enough to grace our dealership, THIS was when I really felt the middle finger of BMW to the enthusiast. Not because of the dealer mark-up, but for not creating more BMW M engineered cars for those of us who love to exploit these cars on the track and were willing to pay MSRP which I thought was reasonable. I didn't even have the OPTION to special order one given this marketing technique.
I'm speaking to the choir here. When X5M and X6M are BMW M's priority over building light, extremely fast, and somewhat affordable cars??? I think M will never be the same and my wallet will be the final decision maker on this one.
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      07-12-2012, 02:51 AM   #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula M
Tactful post, but the "old guard" only needs ONE horse... not the whole stable.
Maybe, but I can't think which modern chassis BMW would use to build even one new M car that would please the old guard. All of the mainstream models keep getting bigger and, in most cases, heavier hence my suggestion that BMW consider an M only chassis to build a true sports car to compete with the Cayman.
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      07-12-2012, 04:22 AM   #296
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Isn't BMW M GmbH's job to take a regular BMW series car, dissect it, add performance, and add a "M" badge, then sell it as a M model? Or I'm missing something here?

I've been hearing a lot of terms like "too soft" "not raw" "no driver involvement"...damn, what do you guys all drive? What do your immediate family members drive? I guess it's raw to sleep on a rock, but I really love my tempur-pedic bed, and it's softer for sure. Isn't this part of the evolution of things/technology? M cars are now easier to drive and more civil, and all of sudden it's soft?

And please stop comparing Porsche to BMW, completely different philosophies. Porsche builds sports casr from the ground up, BMW takes a regular series car and enhance the performance aspect of the car. Let's not forget BMW is better car/motor company, Porsche couldn't even stand on its own feet without being absorbed by a giant auto group.
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      07-12-2012, 04:42 AM   #297
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Maybe these are the glory days which the old-timers want?
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      07-12-2012, 05:06 AM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
The GT4 is not a street car, so why are you comparing it to a street car? If you meant GTS, you can't just convert the Euros to dollars. If BMW would have made more copies of the car, they would have cost a lot less since the cost of engineering it would be spread out.
You can daily drive an E30 M3, E36 M3 (though we didn't get the real version), and an E46 M3. All versions had track oriented editions with TRUE performance improvements. The Lime Rock Edition does not. That's what the author was not happy about. Why couldn't BMW just give us at LEAST the brakes from the GTS? Why not the coilovers? Keep the stock engine to save money. At least that would be a true performance improvement.
That's exactly my point. If you want a race car, get a race car. The M3 is NOT a race car. It is a street car. If you insist on getting a race car, then get the M3 GT4, which is for all intents and purposes, the exact same M3 as the street car but with modifications for racing.

The Lime Rock Edition is just a naming exercise, with a color that is proving to be popular and with parts which may appeal to a segment of the market. That's all it is. I don't see why people get so upset about it. In fact the opposite should be true; you should be pissed off at BMW if your "classic" E9x M3 gets obsoleted even before you take delivery of the vehicle, like what Subaru did with all their STI Spec C editions and their "limited production runs". I remember back in 05 or 06 when they announced one version and within 60 days another version came out with different parts.
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      07-12-2012, 10:39 AM   #299
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Thanks for the tip - hope it works for me to join you all! Looks like the perfect way to break my M in at the track. I'm guessing this will be a vastly different experience from the time I took my old Mazda 3s hatch (not Speed!) out there for an HST day. I was probably the slowest car out there, but I sure had a lot of fun. Will be nice to have twice the torque to pull out of the tight corners!
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      07-12-2012, 11:01 AM   #300
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BMW takes a regular series car and enhance the performance aspect of the car.
I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.
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      07-12-2012, 11:37 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.
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      07-12-2012, 11:49 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.
+1

I really like your idea, but I'm afraid that if the M Division ventures into developing such a car, it would be aimed at something like the Audi R8 to justify the extremely high development costs of an exclusive M model.
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      07-12-2012, 11:57 AM   #303
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I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?
We'll see soon just how much further M Division can advance the state of the art with the next generation M3/M4 and their F8x chassis. This new designation vs. the F3x chassis on which the M version will be based signifies that they have some new tricks to show us this time around. Originally the speculation focused on carbon fiber, especially body panels, but newer rumors suggest that the focus will be heavy use of aluminum, both in the body shell and in subframes and chassis components.

Speaking of your 7 series and of carbon fiber, the next generation of that car is slated to make much heavier use of the material than in any past BMW. Here we will likely see some use of CFRP body panels and perhaps suspension components. Later these will make their way into other BMW products including future M vehicles.
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      07-12-2012, 12:25 PM   #304
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What a load of %<><%!

I can't imagine what gives this sort of person the confidence or the conviction to stump out a broad condemnation of one the worlds most respected automotive icons.

I have been fortunate enough to own 3 generations of M5 and, yes, an X6M and while they all had a weakness of some sort, no other car has come close to offering the best of all worlds package that any of them do.

I miss the rev crazy engines of the past, but appreciate BMW's courage and vision to move to a more socially acceptable norm and somehow make it work in the M type of way when it comes to Turbos for the environment. I have to admit I hated the the very notion of SUV combined with the letter M, but one test drive in a GP rated circuit where Audi RS4s and M3 where trading laps converted me.

Perhaps, this fellow needs to do the same, open his mind to new things and appreciate that strange new things can actually be fun.

Also, as awful as marketing gimmicks may seem, if they allow manufacturers to make the money that funds great cars R&D costs, then keep them coming.
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      07-12-2012, 12:59 PM   #305
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I really like your idea, but I'm afraid that if the M Division ventures into developing such a car, it would be aimed at something like the Audi R8 to justify the extremely high development costs of an exclusive M model.
You're probably right -- I'm just dreaming out loud from the perspective of someone who is an old school M fan at heart, but who also understands how and why BMW is adapting the M brand to the modern world.

For BMW to make an "M Cayman" -- a car that I think would bring immeasurable added excitement to the brand -- they *could* start with a bespoke chassis and leverage their mainstream parts bin for most of the mechanical bits.

The 1M is a seriously cool car, but imagine how much better it could have been if the same (or slightly modified) mechanicals could have been stuffed into a purpose-built 2 seat chassis (smaller, lighter, lower center of gravity) and body that make ample use of lightweight materials. I've never driven a 1M or Cayman R, but almost every review I read said the Cayman edged the 1M as a driver's car because it's a naturally lighter and better balanced car from the ground up. BMW made the most out of the E82, but the modified E90 chassis foundation has inherent limitations as a sports car.

So, to belabor the point, I think an M chassis is all that's keeping BMW from building a Porsche-equivalent (or maybe even better) sports car that could really excite the old school M base. Since the 1M cost around $45-50K, I'll blindly hypothesize that this car could go for $70-80K if BMW can re-use many of the basics and hold back on unnecessary electronics and other non-performance features.

IMO, a 350HP, 3,000 lb. 2-seater M sports coupe for $70-80K would be a winner that bridges old school and new school -- not far from the old Z4M, but modernized as needed for the new reality (turbos, etc.) But I also think you're correct that BMW would aim higher (if not necessarily better) with an R8-ish car showcasing all the latest technology bits as that seems to be their push these days.
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      07-12-2012, 01:05 PM   #306
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We'll see soon just how much further M Division can advance the state of the art with the next generation M3/M4 and their F8x chassis. This new designation vs. the F3x chassis on which the M version will be based signifies that they have some new tricks to show us this time around. Originally the speculation focused on carbon fiber, especially body panels, but newer rumors suggest that the focus will be heavy use of aluminum, both in the body shell and in subframes and chassis components.

Speaking of your 7 series and of carbon fiber, the next generation of that car is slated to make much heavier use of the material than in any past BMW. Here we will likely see some use of CFRP body panels and perhaps suspension components. Later these will make their way into other BMW products including future M vehicles.
I hope you're right and the next M3 surprises us all by supplanting lightweight materials in the chassis and body at a deeper level than BMW has ever attempted before. You know how people talk about "peak oil?" Hopefully we'll all look back at the last 2 decades and call it "peak automobile weight" when cars rapidly grew in size, features and weight to meet regulatory and market demands but before lightweight materials enjoyed economies of scale to offset the growth trends.
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      07-12-2012, 01:36 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
I think this may be the fundamental basis of all the complaints even if it's not obvious. As BMW's mainstream cars stray further from their roots (bigger, softer, usually heavier), the M variants will inevitably stray as well because there's only so much the M Division can do to alter a car once the "bones" are in place. How can BMW reasonably make a lighter, tighter M5 when it's essentially based on a 7 Series?

This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.
+1. M needs to stop tuning the series cars only and focus on making bespoke platforms that brings the excitement back again.
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      07-12-2012, 03:10 PM   #308
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