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      07-11-2012, 05:10 PM   #265
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Here's my comment on the original article, and a reply from Caswell. If my M3 is “slow and muted”, I can't wait to have a car that's not one day... Ha! From someone looking for a race car platform like Bill is, I get his frustration over the Lime Rock edition.

-Matt Hardigree (another Jalop)
This may have been a long time coming, but it embodies a lot of what people like Bill don't like about the BMW M brand in modern form.

-Bill Caswell
Agreed. The brand probably died a long time ago but when you're so in love with something its hard to let go until they slap you in the face with it. you know?

-davesaddiction
Bill,

I feel your pain. I felt the same way when it came out that Porsche was going to build the Cayenne. I've come to accept that, though, because of the crazy "pure" models they're able to make because of all the money they're making off the Cayenne (and Panamera).

I just bought an '08 E90 M3. It came off lease, used by someone who obviously just bought it for status. As a dad with two little kids, having a car with this kind of power and handling, a manual transmission, and room in the back for car seats (so it can be my daily drive) is a dream come true.

Spent half a tank of gas taking a fun drive on rural roads around here this past Friday, and I can't wait to put her through her paces on weekend trips to Arkansas and eventually track days at the little track near here. www.hallettracing.net

There will always be posers. And the existence of the X6M, X5M, E93 M3, etc. does hurt my soul. But it's up to M owners who are true enthusiasts to use these cars as they were meant to be.

Thanks for sharing your passion.

Dave

-Bill Caswell
Dave you really hit the nail on the head. I so agree with you. I think its ok to release non pure models. like a Cayenne or a MX5 (not the miata) as long as they keep giving us cars like the GT3 and all of its special editions that have measurable performance increases. Selling a car with a race track in its name that is no faster or different than the regular car is wrong. I think BMW had 200 spare steering wheels, 400 seats and 200 exhaust systems from its performance parts catalog that never sold and figured why not?

I too thought about trying a used E90 but the rear suspension feels like a 5 series. and its heavy and slow and muted. But ridiculously nice to drive the family around in. I'm looking at the Subaru BRZ these days and a used, very used 911. Two companies that seem to support and build cars for the stuff I love.

The real shame about the M brand is once its lost, it never really comes back. Its to large of an entity at this point so its my fear that it will never ever fit back in the box once its been let out.
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      07-11-2012, 05:23 PM   #266
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I agree with few things in the article. However, some of the other stuff is where this guy is getting his panties in a bunch for no reason. Sure the M3 limerock should have performance upgrades and yes only making 800 1M was not enough to satisfy enthusiasts. Also, BMW needs to start racing some of their turbo engines.

However, I think this guys is full of it when he says that the M3 is racing against likes of Kia in GrandAm. Last time I watched the M3 was racing against the likes of Porsches, Ferraris, Aston, Corvettes, Mustangs, Camaros,
WRX sti, Audi R8......etc...in both Grandam and continental racing series. These M3's are as close to stock as you can get in a racing series. For some one pretending to be a enthusiast I think he should know a bit more about these racing series. To say M3 competes against Kia causes u to lose credability when you write an article like the death of M performance. Also, research a bit more the Kia Forte races against the likes of BMW 328i and 128i as well as Mini.

As far as BMW M sport going soft they put a turbo in 1M and created a fantastic little package at reasonable price. The car is a blast to drive by all sources. They did drop the ball by not bringing more then 800 to quench the thirst of enthusiasts. I think it makes me excitied about what the next 1M/2M will bring for enthusiasts after getting a glimpse of 1M performance potential. I am also looking forward to next M3/M4 due to many reasons one being lighter then the current version. Also, you have to give credit that they did make the light weight CRT E90 M3 limited edition and a bit pricey but none the less super fun M3 GTS.

I want BMW to make more raw cars like everyone else. However, times have changed M5\M6 have moved upscale to compete with the likes of Bentley and CL63 AMG. Thus, better leaving the smaller and lighter series like 1M, 2M and M3/M4 to be more raw. I say as long as they keep those cars raw and more pure at reasonable price then M will be fine.

Also, those that are stuck on engine configuration are nothing but fan boys. The NA engine or forced induction either one is equally impressive as long as it is purpose built with greater performance in mind.
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      07-11-2012, 05:30 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
I always read about people who want small lightweight cars that handle well even though they don't have a lot of power.
Well, if that were true, then why did Mazda have to stop selling the RX8?
Why are those drivers not driving Miata's, instead of driving turbo engined BMW's?

Heck, if one wants a good handling NA engine powered RWD, Ford has been selling Mustangs for quite some time.
YES they DO handle well even with the archaic rear end.
There's also Nissan Z cars, normally aspirated, RWD, and they handle quite well. The Nismo 350Z was quite impressive in handling.
RX8: It has a stupid engine.
Miata: It is a convertible. Most track don't even allow them for lapping days.
Mustang: No, it doesn't handle that well. It is heavy. It is getting better though.
350Z: Heavy, engine is not smooth, brakes are way under sized. Good handling, good steering feel though.
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      07-11-2012, 05:32 PM   #268
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100% agree with the article. an M car was based for those that are car enthusiasts. Do car enthusiasts need all the high tech stuff in their M car? I don't think so.

Do M drivers need turbo? I don't think so. Do M drivers need good gas mileage? I don't think so. If you can afford an M car, last thing you should worry about is gas mileage.

IMO, BMW has taken a mercedes AMG approach. If i wanted an AMG i would have bought one. They are starting to make "soft" consumer friendly cars. Not enthusiast friendly.

I don't know about the rest on this forum, but i am on my last M. There is no way i will be paying $80k for a car that is consumer based, not enthusiast based.

Next car options: CLK63 black series. Gallardo. R8. CLK63 sedan. you get the point. I do like the new m5 but something about it just seems "soft"

Anyways, im done with my rant. Good luck to BMW, but they don't really need "luck" as their sales #s are looking very good, which is obviously what they are after.
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      07-11-2012, 06:22 PM   #269
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Quote:
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Purist...the 1M is as close as it got... before that the E46 M3 CSL. I agree that there needs to be a hardcore option like the M3 GTS which is readily available. Just as Porsche have the GT2/3 & Cayman R.

1M should have come in race version as an option with performance seats, harnesses, track suspension, CF roof etc.
I just needs an aluminum version of the S54 to be a true //M car, and lose another 150 lbs.

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      07-11-2012, 06:25 PM   #270
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A simpler F20 "Baby Bimmer" in Sedan, Coupe and Convertible form could restore some life to the enthusiast wing of the BMW brand, especially if it forms the basis of another relatively affordable M variant.
Such a car is likely to arrive at some point, but not before the next generation 1 Series. As such, it will be based on the FWD UKL platform that BMW intends to introduce shortly in the form of a 1 GT and other similar vehicles, and which will, in some form or another, eventually underpin all vehicles in the 1 series range.

However there is also hope for a 2 Series Gran Coupe - possibly even this generation, based off the upcoming F22 2 Series coupe.
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      07-11-2012, 06:35 PM   #271
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      07-11-2012, 06:38 PM   #272
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I have one thing to say about all of this http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=705185
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      07-11-2012, 06:40 PM   #273
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Regardless of where you stand on the question about what M means these days, BMW does deserve credit for continuing to offer manual transmissions on most cars where they have any chance of selling (i.e. automatic-only SUVs are more understandable). That's one reason the AMG cars have very little appeal for me. Of course the manuals may be gone soon as well, but I think we still have 5-10 years of "row your own" BMWs ahead of us.
Big deal!
Should Honda,Mazda,Nissan,Ford,GM etc. also get credit for continuing to offer MT's on their cars?
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      07-11-2012, 06:51 PM   #274
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Bill,

I feel your pain. I felt the same way when it came out that Porsche was going to build the Cayenne. I've come to accept that, though, because of the crazy "pure" models they're able to make because of all the money they're making off the Cayenne (and Panamera).

I just bought an '08 E90 M3. It came off lease, used by someone who obviously just bought it for status. As a dad with two little kids, having a car with this kind of power and handling, a manual transmission, and room in the back for car seats (so it can be my daily drive) is a dream come true.

Spent half a tank of gas taking a fun drive on rural roads around here this past Friday, and I can't wait to put her through her paces on weekend trips to Arkansas and eventually track days at the little track near here. www.hallettracing.net

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      07-11-2012, 07:32 PM   #275
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Big deal!
Should Honda,Mazda,Nissan,Ford,GM etc. also get credit for continuing to offer MT's on their cars?
To some extent, I'd say yes, but I think you may be missing the context of my point.

Many companies who offer high-end performance cars/lines are weaving in so much technology into their cars they have eliminated or nearly eliminated manual transmissions. Ferrari and Lambo set the trend in motion years ago.

But consider BMW's direct competition: Audi is clearly on the path to eliminating manual transmissions even on their S and RS cars. Mercedes offers a single manual model in America, but you'll never see one (SLK250). For me, it's a disturbing trend and I'm glad to see that BMW hasn't gone there...yet.

Among less expensive cars, I'm happy to see manuals are still around, but I think that speaks to the economics and demographics where those cars compete. The list of sports cars (or even sporty cars) with RWD and a manual transmission is getting shorter every year, so we should celebrate the survivors!
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      07-11-2012, 08:23 PM   #276
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you registered to post this gem?

i read that and thought it was well though out and written....yea what a first post!
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      07-11-2012, 08:27 PM   #277
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I wish. This article captures what many enthusiasts have felt about the M division for a while.

Post E9x M3...I won't be buying a M product. (Not that M needs my money to survive anyways).

Here's to a future where all ///M engines will be nothing more than a fast and glorified vacuum cleaner.
x2, people in the forum should stop blindly backing BMW up and start speaking up the truth so the brand can find its soul again, that same soul that gave it the respect it has among enthusiasts. BMW is looking everyday a little more like Mercedes and less like BMW and we as fans should speak up and make em notice what they are doing.
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      07-11-2012, 08:43 PM   #278
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Those of you who agree with the author: how many of you have a daily-driven car like an Lotus Exige? How long did you own it for? Unless you live in Japan where the roads are smoother than a pool table, I'd guess "not that long".

Note that even Lotus has gone "soft" with the Evora.

How many of you "true enthusiasts" are ready to pay 120K Euros for an M3? Because that's what the M3 GT4 costs. So why are you bitching about it here and not out there racing?

It's like the age-old Mac vs PC thing. Apple doesn't know how to make a sub-$1000 laptop that doesn't suck (in their view). You are free to disagree, just like you can most definitely make a go-kart beat the pants off any supercar. But I wouldn't like a go-kart as a daily driver.
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      07-11-2012, 09:04 PM   #279
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To some extent, I'd say yes, but I think you may be missing the context of my point.

Many companies who offer high-end performance cars/lines are weaving in so much technology into their cars they have eliminated or nearly eliminated manual transmissions. Ferrari and Lambo set the trend in motion years ago.

But consider BMW's direct competition: Audi is clearly on the path to eliminating manual transmissions even on their S and RS cars. Mercedes offers a single manual model in America, but you'll never see one (SLK250). For me, it's a disturbing trend and I'm glad to see that BMW hasn't gone there...yet.

Among less expensive cars, I'm happy to see manuals are still around, but I think that speaks to the economics and demographics where those cars compete. The list of sports cars (or even sporty cars) with RWD and a manual transmission is getting shorter every year, so we should celebrate the survivors!
It doesnt get anymore mainstrean than a Honda Accord,yet you think BMW should be celebrated for offering a MT on a sports car, the Mustang Boss 302 only comes with a MT and the Z06 jst started offering an auto.

What's sad if that bright orange was offered on the Mustang GT500, many people here would have would thought it looks hideous. Since it's BMW offering it,it's the coolest color ever and worth 5 to 10 grand.
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      07-11-2012, 09:05 PM   #280
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When are those pussies at M going to put their foot down and just say NO! give me a break...whats next Special Ed brake calipers? hey wait a minute..if there better brakes I might go for that! maybe some marketing person wil come up with an M donut holder that has an M button to shove the donut in your face faster...Lets all pray they don't ruin the brand with the F80...why don't hey just give is the us the damm stroker motor ed. and go out with giving the marketing guys the finger?
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      07-11-2012, 09:46 PM   #281
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Great discussion.
A point that has been brought up many times about the GTS being the last pure M, the fact is, that's what it costs to satisfy the purist M buyer. I'm all for a special edition with increased displacement and reduced weight. I just wish they offered the GTS as a package, not a limited edition. There is a reason why the Dinan stroker kit costs so much. It's the cost of labor and parts to overbore the S65.

The director of M has come out and said he has a "surprise" with the next M3. "the enthusiast won't be disappointed". I'm hope BMW will deliver.

My main concern with this "next" gen of turbo M cars is the track capability. Every other 335 is playing the limp mode game at the track and I have heard of new M5s going into limp before a 20 min session. Those things have 10 coolers don't they!?!?

Anyway, glad I got me S65!
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      07-11-2012, 09:48 PM   #282
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Great discussion.
A point that has been brought up many times about the GTS being the last pure M, the fact is, that's what it costs to satisfy the purist M buyer. I'm all for a special edition with increased displacement and reduced weight. I just wish they offered the GTS as a package, not a limited edition. There is a reason why the Dinan stroker kit costs so much. It's the cost of labor and parts to overbore the S65.

The director of M has come out and said he has a "surprise" with the next M3. "the enthusiast won't be disappointed". I'm sure BMW will deliver.

My main concern with this "next" gen of turbo M cars is the track capability. Every other 335 is playing the limp mode game at the track and I have heard of new M5s going into limp before a 20 min session. Those things have 10 coolers don't they!?!?

Anyway, glad I got me S65!

No issues with cooling or limp mode on the 1M. as in ZERO reports. Search on 1addicts if you care.
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      07-11-2012, 09:56 PM   #283
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No issues with cooling or limp mode on the 1M. as in ZERO reports. Search on 1addicts if you care.
Well good for you!
I owned a N54 335i for 2 years and did 3 track days in it so I'm speaking from my personal experience. I'm sure the 1M has better cooling.

Are you stock or running booooooooost?
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      07-11-2012, 10:26 PM   #284
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Thats exactly what I'd love to see too , but by that rationale, both your 1M and my M3 aren't true M cars even though e9x M3 trounces the cars that came before it ( performance wise). No matter how much we'd like to think everyone driving and M series car around knows everything about it , the simple fact is there will always be posers.But BMW IS caught in a conundrum how to keep EVERYONE happy.They are a victim of their own success. To much leather, sound deadening and gadgets and the purists aren't happy. Take that stuff away and BMW's average buyer isn't happy.
My point about Porsche was somewhat sarcastic seeing as VW just made the final buy out to completely own them.

I'm confused about all of this poser talk. I am a business man, 40, just learning about cars, have started auto crossing, plan to go to the track. I bought the m3 cause I can track it and go to bed bath and beyond after that. Am I a poser? Everyone is a poser in some way. The use of the term is just dumb.

Also, I rode in a boss 302, Shelby, blah blah, and the interiors of those cars suck, and are impossible to see out of, and would look silly at a work event. The m3 gives me a reasonable car I can use for work and to learn more about cars and driving.
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      07-11-2012, 10:33 PM   #285
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One could just as easily say that the poseurs are the "track types" whose minority opinion is more valid than hundreds of thousands of M car buyers, or posing as superior judges of what's good for a company and its stockholders (oh and btw, BMW is a public company with traded equity for one of the prior posters who claimed it was private).

Stick to your tracking/racing/performance purity expertise and vote with your wallet if you disagree so vehemently and leave the psychology/consumer behavior/management consulting/cost accounting/profitability analysis (and even spelling --it's posEUR, btw) to others. Time will tell if BMW is in fact becoming the next Toyota.
Amen!
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      07-11-2012, 10:34 PM   #286
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Completely agree, cheers to you too BMW mate
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