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      07-10-2012, 04:56 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdaddylo View Post
Sorry, I didn't get your point the first time around. To me a true M car is a sports car and not a porky luxury GT. Porsche sold ~120k units last year and BMW sold ~1.6M. While Porsche probably has higher margins, I highly doubt Porsche's bottom line comes close to BMW's.
Thats exactly what I'd love to see too , but by that rationale, both your 1M and my M3 aren't true M cars even though e9x M3 trounces the cars that came before it ( performance wise). No matter how much we'd like to think everyone driving and M series car around knows everything about it , the simple fact is there will always be posers.But BMW IS caught in a conundrum how to keep EVERYONE happy.They are a victim of their own success. To much leather, sound deadening and gadgets and the purists aren't happy. Take that stuff away and BMW's average buyer isn't happy.
My point about Porsche was somewhat sarcastic seeing as VW just made the final buy out to completely own them.
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      07-10-2012, 04:58 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
I own a E92 M3, but I'm building a 2012 Mustang GT 5.0 track car because I can make a real track beast easily out of it. It's just come to the point where BMW isn't making the lean race cars they should have continued to make since the early years. When a car almost 1/3 the price of the M3 can do everything it can do on the track, you've got a problem.

The M3 is now a luxury sports car. It's lost its edge. While this article is a bit over-dramatic, it still hits the mark. BMW M division, are you listening?
not when you have many people (some in this thread, as you can see) still buying their Koolaid, unfortunately.
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      07-10-2012, 05:01 PM   #157
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Total overreaction.
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      07-10-2012, 05:08 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Purple Derple View Post
I don't entirely agree with this. Yes they have to make money, but successful business models do not have to forgo convictions. Take, for example, Steve Jobs' stance against smut on apple devices. Media has been made/broken by the porn industry--VHS vs Beta being the prime instance. His position was to exclude porn from their devices as much as possible. Media history would say this is damning, but apple made it work.

Yes BMW is doing this for savvy business reasons, I just think a lot of people take the position that it doesn't have to be this way. Anyways, who's to say this strategy of capitalizing on their M division isn't poisoning their reputation in the long-run?
I totally agree...
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      07-10-2012, 05:32 PM   #159
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I guess LRE car was the drop that made the bucket overflow LOL!
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      07-10-2012, 05:36 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePoonTang View Post
E39 M5. The last Ultimate driving machine :'(
Well the guy who just bought his brand new F10 M5 that plays the exhaust note through the speakers and who has never driven the E39 M5 is probably wondering what's all the fuss about and all this talk about the ///M brand being diluted is non sense.
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      07-10-2012, 05:43 PM   #161
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For people that want a 3000 lb bare bones car with a small motor- go to lotus. You better hurry because they're teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Nobody wants a $50,000 slot car as a daily driver.
I did just that, but at 2000 lbs. with my Elise, which is fun for weekend/evening driving. Would I want to drive it every day in traffic? Not really. On the other hand, would my daily driver E90 335i make a good track car? Not my first choice for that duty. I like having both, because each serves a different purpose.
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      07-10-2012, 05:44 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Well the guy who just bought his brand new F10 M5 that plays the exhaust note through the speakers and who has never driven the E39 M5 is probably wondering what's all the fuss about and all this talk about the ///M brand being diluted is non sense.
while he beats the e39 m5 in every category that they can come up with, acceleration, handling, technology, fit and finish. beats it to a pulp.

yeah that guy is a real sucker

and by the way, if you can customize your suspension settings, your seat heat distribution, and how many times your signal signals when you press *click*, i'm pretty sure you can turn off the cabin noise that everyone is so upset about.
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      07-10-2012, 05:50 PM   #163
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Given the amount of "because racecar" sentiment in this thread, I wonder how many people here have cars with:

a) No leather (cloth is grippier)
b) No power seats (too heavy)
c) No navigation system/premium sound/"quality of life" equipment (too heavy and unnecessary on the track)
d) 18-inch wheels (greatest selection of race tires)
e) No EDC (replacement struts are expensive, all top-tier aftermarket dampers delete EDC functionality)
f) Sedan (cheaper, no performance disadvantage vis-a-vis coupe)

My guess is, "not many." Instead, we have threads upon threads of people showing off their cars with 20-inch wheels, debating the merits of LCI taillights and cutting up their exhaust for sound purposes.

BMW has to go where the market goes, and the US market is saying "I don't want a stripped-out $60k car, I'd rather have a $72k car with lots of gadgets, nice-looking wheels and a wicked exhauste note."

It's neither good nor bad; it is what it is.
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      07-10-2012, 05:51 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Slightly off-topic, but do you "enthusiasts" think the gt86 is a return to standards for what the ///M badge should stand for?

I am rather curious about the BMW and Toyota rumor that is going around. That joint venture might just keep enthusiasts happy.
In a sense yes. All brands used to make sports cars, especially the Japanese brands. These have all --mostly-- died.

I am not crying about the E30 M3. To me, the Z4MC was a pure car. The 1 series M is similar, but a bit more whored out to just cash in on demand for a "real" M. BMW Motorsport could have done better. IMO.
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      07-10-2012, 05:55 PM   #165
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ROFL!

Plenty of inconsistencies with the article, but there also was a lot of comedic gold in it as well.
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      07-10-2012, 06:08 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
while he beats the e39 m5 in every category that they can come up with, acceleration, handling, technology, fit and finish. beats it to a pulp.

yeah that guy is a real sucker

and by the way, if you can customize your suspension settings, your seat heat distribution, and how many times your signal signals when you press *click*, i'm pretty sure you can turn off the cabin noise that everyone is so upset about.
I thought BMW's were about sheer driving pleasure,Freude Am Fahren.
Btw with $15k worth upgrades even a $10k Miata can spank the F10 M5.
According to the BMW M division to be a heavyweight on the racetrack, first you have to be a lightweight. They used that line in one of their ads for the E36 M3 LTW.
why do you think real race cars tend to be light? The laws of physics havent changed.
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      07-10-2012, 06:14 PM   #167
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While I agree that the M branding isn't what it used to be, some of you guys forget that the 2800lbs E30 M3 wasn't considered light when it was released. It was full of state-of-the-art electronics of it's time. My 2000 Celica was a bigger car yet 200lbs lighter than the M3 that was 10 years older. Compare a 911 from today and the 80's and you'll see the exact same trend in weight, comfort, and technology.
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      07-10-2012, 06:33 PM   #168
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All these people talkin about the current M3 beating previous M3's arent very familiar with grassroots racing. Take a $15k E36 M3,spend 3 grand on TC Kline or AST coilovers + some vorshlag's adjustable camber plates,some neova ad08's another grand.
You ll be spanking the E92 M3 with all the electronic support EDC,MDM blah blah on a tight course.The E9X will not benefit as much from coilovers because at 3,600lb and its stock suspension is already very good, there's not much left on the table for upgrades.
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      07-10-2012, 06:34 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post
http://jalopnik.com/5924573/the-death-of-bmws-m-brand





I don't see it quite this drastic, but he pretty much nailed it
We knew this was coming - sentiments about ///M and its current direction/products. Kinda like that thread about the S65 Sides are being formed.. Personally, the last car that I had with ///M badging that wasn't a true Motorsport car was a 2005 E46 ZHP coupe somewhat akin to what the "is" is today, albeit normally aspirated.

I think I've waged my own protest to this phenomenon as I don't care to buy any M packaged car that doesn't have any real performance upgrades...not being a badge snob...It just seems like ///M is mirroring AMG's marketing model. JMHO
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      07-10-2012, 06:40 PM   #170
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Entirely agree with you however they are making what there clients asking for, living in the US I found out people love to have those big cars what's called SUV's, they care more about the options or how luxurious the car such as the Nav screen, speakers, iPhone integrated, they don't even know what real M5 or m3 w/ stick shift thing is all about! Glad to own the last decent generation E39 M5, although most of Europe, the middle east & Australia still into old ultimate driving machine.

E39 M5 In Australia is still worth $40,000 AUD, $39,717.95 USD, 24,862.90 GBP, why is that??
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      07-10-2012, 07:10 PM   #171
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BMW doesn't make ye olde motorsports cars of yesteryear anymore. And Ford no longer makes the Model-T. That's just the way it is. Get over it.
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      07-10-2012, 07:15 PM   #172
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So we have M#, #M, M###i, X#M, M-performance and M-sport and you are really debating this?
C'mon, they had something great and well respected and whored it to death, what doubt does anyone have left?
M cars are great but are undeniably 2 things:
A- not what they used to be
B- not in any way special anymore

I love M cars more than the next guy but you have to admit, it has become this totally commercial marketing scheme and has nothing to do with Motorsport.

My only guess is they will have to create an even more impressive performance designation than M (like the Audi s and rs, which is great example)
Oooor we will all slowly have to realize BMW was the underdog who has now grown out of its shell and is on a path for whorish world domination.
The majority of people who buy M cars will drive them like camrys anyway, BMW is just doing the right thing needed to sustain growth.
The other day I saw an 80yr old grandma crawl out of a poorly parked X6M with her grandma friends to go have an overpriced salad....

M is a performance upgrade.
It does not make your Bimmer into a Lambo.
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      07-10-2012, 07:18 PM   #173
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All things evolve and change. All material goods are getting more complex in their execution, not just cars. Even power tools can now be programmed for all sorts of complex functions, for instance. Look at what the cell phone has transformed into. Cars are no different. M cars are no different. All cars are becoming more complex, more computerized, more all-encompassing.

And so what if exhaust sound is piped in through speakers? I wonder what was said about the first electric guitar? Exhaust sound technology like this allows the driver to experience the exhaust sound at a volume he/she likes while simultaneously keeping all the unwanted noises out, and not annoying the public or attracting attention from the police.

Look at Porsche. They also have performance SUV's and big performance sedans. The 911 is also becoming a more all-encompassing car.

The real question to ask is this: Have the performance capabilities been diminished as a result of this? The answer is no. All the new modern performance cars, despite being all encompassing handily outperform the more "pure" older counterparts.
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      07-10-2012, 07:32 PM   #174
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I have as a daily driver a Mercedes C350 4MATIC with the AMG wheels and some other gadgets. Do I see it as an AMG ... no way I never would. In my younger years I had a AMG and it would never compare to what I now have in the C350.

So what if BMW adds ///M options to other cars, why get all excited about it. Will it make it an ///M car no way.

Remember the ///M car has 50% of it's components upgraded and 80% of a run of the mill car modified before it get's the ///M badge attached.

Did I pay more for those AMG wheels ... yes I did ... did I order those wheels ... no I did not it so happens the car was in inventory when I purchased it and having the AMG wheels did not present any problems to me at all.

So let us be at piece a BMW with some ///M options does by no means make it an ///M car ... I for one will continue to enjoy my ///M3.
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      07-10-2012, 07:35 PM   #175
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This is nothing new...Has everyone for gotten the M535i or M635CSi from the 80s? I'm going to play devils advocate here and wait and see what BMW has in store for us.

As for BMW NA reading the forums, of course they do. The ///M brand manager (Matt Russell) is a frequent poster on this forum.
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      07-10-2012, 07:37 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
All these people talkin about the current M3 beating previous M3's arent very familiar with grassroots racing. Take a $15k E36 M3,spend 3 grand on TC Kline or AST coilovers + some vorshlag's adjustable camber plates,some neova ad08's another grand.
You ll be spanking the E92 M3 with all the electronic support EDC,MDM blah blah on a tight course.The E9X will not benefit as much from coilovers because at 3,600lb and its stock suspension is already very good, there's not much left on the table for upgrades.
Are you serious?

In 20 years you could say the EXACT same thing about the E92 M3 and the F(whatever) M3.
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