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      07-10-2012, 12:45 PM   #45
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Pretty soon BMW is going to sell M underwear.
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      07-10-2012, 12:51 PM   #46
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Some stupid douche bag mocking the M brand...
I mean does this guy even own an M car? or maybe even driven one before?

///M for marketing?
How can you sell a car without marketing/informing consumers?

Posing as a racer while driving M cars? Seriously?

I just want to say to the author "F*** Off and mind your own business."
The world has changed, the performance car market has changed as well.
I think this dude's still stuck in the 70s and 80s mindset..
time to move on my friend!
It's a whole different world now, why can't anyone notice this?

Bill Caswell, your opinion is acceptable but the way you said it is not cool.

Last edited by Double Bubble; 07-10-2012 at 12:58 PM.
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      07-10-2012, 12:54 PM   #47
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[quote=Smg Ftw;12299404]Bill Caswell has owned more bmw's then probably 90% of the members here.

http://caswellmotorsport.com/?page_id=551

And is supposedly very bitter towards BMW because they do not sponsor him in any capacity. He is rumored to be working with Audi on a future project if that tells you anything. (There is always something going on behind the scenes).
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      07-10-2012, 12:54 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandrega View Post
I can't believe a company in the business of making money would want to maximize its profits.
It's like when GM started slapping the SS badge(super sport) on everything from mini vans to suv's. Hahaha
There are car manufacturers that are doing just fine financially without those marketing gimmicks.
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      07-10-2012, 12:55 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuds View Post
no....sounds like a guy who loves cars and is pissed off that what he likes is losing its appeal.

I think the entire article can be summarized by saying he thinks BMW is selling out. It's no different than all the snowboard/skateboard companies who changed when NBC and ESPN came calling to put them on TV....

It waters down the brand....there is no question about that. We can now buy a 3 series and a 1 series with M badges all over them even though they're not M cars....and have no more power than the non-M models.

It's not hard to figure out why BMW is doing it and how it works.

He exclusivity of the M is waning. Now it's for anyone who can afford it. It used to be for anyone who loved cars and driving enough to make themself afford it. That's a big difference.
couldn't disagree more. an M car is an M car. a BMW with m badges and a different look is just that. they have been making "m" packages for cars for generations now. why btch and moan about the limerock edition?

for the record, my "m sport" 550i f10 is so much better looking than the regular f10.

and my e60 m sport was better looking as well. do i feel like a poser bc it has a few m badges on it? no. why would i?

dumb
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      07-10-2012, 12:55 PM   #50
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      07-10-2012, 12:55 PM   #51
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My point is that BMW used to build amazing street cars to meet the rules of racing and win. Now they choose races with loose rules and bring cars nothing like the one we buy and turn around and sell us models that have nothing to do with racing other than the sticker on the dash.
I don't get this, the FIA have pretty much cancelled any and all racing series where they use a homologated road car. The last car BMW made as a special for racing was the 320Si for the BTCC and the like, these specials are no longer needed so BMW and every other manufacturer doesn't make cars like the Sierra Cosworth, Lancia Delta Intergralie, Toyota Celica GT4, Peugeot 205 T16, Holden Commodore SS Group A, Nissan GTR (the R32 was a homologation special for touring car racing).
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      07-10-2012, 12:55 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smg Ftw View Post
Bill Caswell has owned more bmw's then probably 90% of the members here.
And those in the know say he very bitter towards BMW because they do not sponsor him in any capacity and have basically told him to stop inquiring. He is rumored to be working with Audi on a future project if that tells you anything. (There is always something going on behind the scenes).
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      07-10-2012, 12:56 PM   #53
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I say this all the time but nobody listens to me. None of us matter to BMW. We are a tiny little piece of BMW's profits. Enthusiasts will still have enthusiast options, but BMW has long since ditched the notion that they are only an enthusiast brand.

Driving is about a host of things from comfort and practicality to speed and handling. These cars still do what they're supposed to do. They have the Ultimate Driving dynamics. Sure, it's a shame that you can't exactly feel the crunchy leaf as you drive over it, but the numbers don't lie. BMW's are immensely capable on the road and on the track. And they're incredibly comfortable, which is something that you used to have to buy a Mercedes for. Everyone complained, "wahhhh my BMW rides too stiffly." Well now it doesn't. You got what you wanted at the expense of fanboy justifications.
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      07-10-2012, 12:57 PM   #54
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I wouldn't say the parts are "Pep Boys". That's a bit much. On another note I do agree that BMW is taking the M/// moniker a bit to far.
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      07-10-2012, 12:59 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smg Ftw View Post
Bill Caswell has owned more bmw's then probably 90% of the members here.

http://caswellmotorsport.com/?page_id=551

[/IMG]
+1

They hit the nail on the head. I feel the same way when they started slapping the M badge on the back of everything for another 10+ grand
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      07-10-2012, 01:01 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bas2000 View Post
+1

They hit the nail on the head. I feel the same way when BMW started slapping the badge on the back or everything for another 10+ grand
so?
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      07-10-2012, 01:05 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer-Bob View Post
I love how only 2 or 3 people in this thread even know who Caswell is. Personally, I think he's spot on. M isn't what it once was.
I bet you also believe that the e30 M3 was the best M car ever made.
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      07-10-2012, 01:07 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandrega View Post
I can't believe a company in the business of making money would want to maximize its profits.

There's a lot of talk about the ' death of the brand' of M, but it sounds like a lot of people are only interested in the car because of the badge itself says M. To me, that says status symbol. Which is, in my opinion, no better or worse than bmw slapping m badges on a 328 or 335. If the 'M brand' is more important than the actual vehicle itself for some people, then why wouldn't BMW take advantage of that and spread its appeal? I guess a better question would be, (and im not speaking to anyone in particular), but would you buy this exact same car, if it didnt say M3 on the back? I would.
I bought a 335i as my first BMW due to the turbocharged performance. So I would say yes I would have bought the M3 even without the badge, as for me its more about the experience then the name.

Here is the thing, I have owned performance cars. I owned a highly modified Evo IX that made 400 whp and flew by most cars on HPDEs. The car was raw and amazing to drive, but at the end of the day when it comes to taking your lady out to dinner for a special occasion, or dealing with a loud titanium exhaust system day in and day out, or bucket seats, harnesses, ect, It just becomes a pain in the ass.

When buying the M3 I wanted a mix. Performance + Comfort +Use Ability. No other car met the requirements (as Porsches are still out of my comfort zone). I looked at the Laguna Seca Mustang, but solid rear axle was a big killer for me, as well as the price $45,000 when for $5K more you could get into a slightly used M3 with under 10K miles. Ford service department is a joke (I own a F250), and the Mustang to me feels high schoolish, when taking out clients for work (I deal with medical professionals). So no mustang, what does that leave us with: Evo? STi? again high schoolish, ... S5/S4 (no RS5 here), C63? the steering feel sucks on both IMO, and the body styling on the Audis look the same as the base A4/A5.

I get what the guy is ranting about in the org article, and I agree with him on a lot of points, but at the end of the day what options are consumers left with???

I really think it was lame of BMW to make the 1M in such limited numbers, and I really hope they make a M2 in the future that is more focused on being basic performance like the E30 M3.
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      07-10-2012, 01:08 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC919 View Post
I bet you also believe that the e30 M3 was the best M car ever made.
...most people do.
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      07-10-2012, 01:08 PM   #60
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It's easy to oversimplify the M conundrum, but brand equity is not an easy thing to manage as scale increases. Think about it: how can BMW simultaneously keep the M brand special while making enough financial return on their investment in the brand? Scope creep is inevitable, especially as brand status gets figured into the equation.

I had a 1988 E30 M3 from '88 to '91 and it was the most special car I've ever owned. Unfortunately that car is not competitive by today's standards and BMW would be mocked by many if they attempted to introduce a car as simple and pure as the E30 M3 today. Like it or not, the Toyota/Subaru FR-S/BRZ is the closest modem equivalent to an E30 M3 and it sells for under $30K.

The "simple performance car" market is basically closed to BMW because there's a lot more competition in that arena today than there was 25 years ago at much lower price points (370Z, Mustang GT, etc.) and BMW has understandably decided to play in a more expensive space to keep their brand status and profits high. At the price points where M cars sell, most buyers want everything: all the power, all the comfort, all the "look fast" bits and all the technology. And at the same time, BMW has to meet increasing regulatory demands -- safety, fuel economy, etc. As a result, the M cars try to be all things to all people and they fail as pure performance cars. But they're selling in record numbers and BMW is a business before all else. If people weren't buying them, BMW wouldn't keep building them.

Realistically, what M car can BMW reasonably and profitably produce that would please the old M guard? I would have preferred that the 1M Coupe were a 260HP naturally aspirated N52 variant that was stripped of unnecessary technology and weighed 3,200 lbs or less. That would have felt more like a real M car to me (and I would have bought one for certain), but there's no way BMW could profitably sell that car for under $45K. Even at $45K, the armchair internet racers would lambast it for being underpowered and overpriced (which would also describe almost every NA Porsche for people who don't know any better). It would be an old school success, but a new school failure.

So I'm torn -- I am firmly against the idea of M SUVs (and Porsche SUVs) and 4,200 lb. $100K M Sedans but I understand that they serve to underwrite other BMW performance models that I may want, so I begrudgingly acknowledge their purpose. As I see it, the problem is this: I don't think BMW can simultaneously keep the old guard and the new guard happy while remaining profitable, so they're catering to the new, monied customers at the expense of the old school performance enthusiasts. It's really that simple -- they're chasing the new money and it hurts to recognize that fact if you feel left out of the party. The buyers are changing and BMW is changing with them.

But before attacking BMW for their strategy, ask yourself this: what M car can BMW realistically produce today that would keep both the old guard and new guard happy while maintaining profitability? It's a much harder question to answer once you really think about it.
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      07-10-2012, 01:08 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegas_Sirk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandrega View Post
I can't believe a company in the business of making money would want to maximize its profits.

There's a lot of talk about the ' death of the brand' of M, but it sounds like a lot of people are only interested in the car because of the badge itself says M. To me, that says status symbol. Which is, in my opinion, no better or worse than bmw slapping m badges on a 328 or 335. If the 'M brand' is more important than the actual vehicle itself for some people, then why wouldn't BMW take advantage of that and spread its appeal? I guess a better question would be, (and im not speaking to anyone in particular), but would you buy this exact same car, if it didnt say M3 on the back? I would.
I bought a 335i as my first BMW due to the turbocharged performance. So I would say yes I would have bought the M3 even without the badge, as for me its more about the experience then the name.

Here is the thing, I have owned performance cars. I owned a highly modified Evo IX that made 400 whp and flew by most cars on HPDEs. The car was raw and amazing to drive, but at the end of the day when it comes to taking your lady out to dinner for a special occasion, or dealing with a loud titanium exhaust system day in and day out, or bucket seats, harnesses, ect, It just becomes a pain in the ass.

When buying the M3 I wanted a mix. Performance + Comfort +Use Ability. No other car met the requirements (as Porsches are still out of my comfort zone). I looked at the Laguna Seca Mustang, but solid rear axle was a big killer for me, as well as the price $45,000 when for $5K more you could get into a slightly used M3 with under 10K miles. Ford service department is a joke (I own a F250), and the Mustang to me feels high schoolish, when taking out clients for work (I deal with medical professionals). So no mustang, what does that leave us with: Evo? STi? again high schoolish, ... S5/S4 (no RS5 here), C63? the steering feel sucks on both IMO, and the body styling on the Audis look the same as the base A4/A5.

I get what the guy is ranting about in the org article, and I agree with him on a lot of points, but at the end of the day what options are consumers left with???

I really think it was lame of BMW to make the 1M in such limited numbers, and I really hope they make a M2 in the future that is more focused on being basic performance like the E30 M3.
Exactly +1
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      07-10-2012, 01:10 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
And those in the know say he very bitter towards BMW because they do not sponsor him in any capacity and have basically told him to stop inquiring. He is rumored to be working with Audi on a future project if that tells you anything. (There is always something going on behind the scenes).
I've met Bill before and we talked for an hour or so about his projects and his involvement with BMWCCA instruction. Also his pride and joy e30M.

There are always going to be things going on behind the curtains. If he decides to pursue his racing career further he is going to need to go where the money is and not put his brand loyalty above that.

His article is spot on in my opinion. The M brand is becoming diluted.
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      07-10-2012, 01:20 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
It's easy to oversimplify the M conundrum, but brand equity is not an easy thing to manage as scale increases. Think about it: how can BMW simultaneously keep the M brand special while making enough financial return on their investment in the brand? Scope creep is inevitable, especially as brand status gets figured into the equation.

I had a 1988 E30 M3 from '88 to '91 and it was the most special car I've ever owned. Unfortunately that car is not competitive by today's standards and BMW would be mocked by many if they attempted to introduce a car as simple and pure as the E30 M3 today. Like it or not, the Toyota/Subaru FR-S/BRZ is the closest modem equivalent to an E30 M3 and it sells for under $30K.

The "simple performance car" market is basically closed to BMW because there's a lot more competition in that arena today than there was 25 years ago at much lower price points (370Z, Mustang GT, etc.) and BMW has understandably decided to play in a more expensive space to keep their brand status and profits high. At the price points where M cars sell, most buyers want everything: all the power, all the comfort, all the "look fast" bits and all the technology. And at the same time, BMW has to meet increasing regulatory demands -- safety, fuel economy, etc. As a result, the M cars try to be all things to all people and they fail as pure performance cars. But they're selling in record numbers and BMW is a business before all else. If people weren't buying them, BMW wouldn't keep building them.

Realistically, what M car can BMW reasonably and profitably produce that would please the old M guard? I would have preferred that the 1M Coupe were a 260HP naturally aspirated N52 variant that was stripped of unnecessary technology and weighed 3,200 lbs or less. That would have felt more like a real M car to me (and I would have bought one for certain), but there's no way BMW could profitably sell that car for under $45K. Even at $45K, the armchair internet racers would lambast it for being underpowered and overpriced (which would also describe almost every NA Porsche for people who don't know any better). It would be an old school success, but a new school failure.

So I'm torn -- I am firmly against the idea of M SUVs (and Porsche SUVs) and 4,200 lb. $100K M Sedans but I understand that they serve to underwrite other BMW performance models that I may want, so I begrudgingly acknowledge their purpose. As I see it, the problem is this: I don't think BMW can simultaneously keep the old guard and the new guard happy while remaining profitable, so they're catering to the new, monied customers at the expense of the old school performance enthusiasts. It's really that simple -- they're chasing the new money and it hurts to recognize that fact if you feel left out of the party. The buyers are changing and BMW is changing with them.

But before attacking BMW for their strategy, ask yourself this: what M car can BMW realistically produce today that would keep both the old guard and new guard happy while maintaining profitability? It's a much harder question to answer once you really think about it.
+100 Great post
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      07-10-2012, 01:20 PM   #64
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So now were complaining about companies trying to make money? Give me a break, bmw is a business people, lets not forget that. They have to follow market trends like everyone else. Look at the Ferrari FF, the Cayenne/Panamera, and the Lambo SUV that is in concept. Even the 991 911 has gotten slightly larger and more comfortable. Cars are softening up due to technology and consumer wants, and that's a fact. To say the M division is dead to enthusiasts is really just silly. They just built the M3 GTS for fucks sake.
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      07-10-2012, 01:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smg Ftw View Post
Bill Caswell has owned more bmw's then probably 90% of the members here.

http://caswellmotorsport.com/?page_id=551

And is supposedly very bitter towards BMW because they do not sponsor him in any capacity. He is rumored to be working with Audi on a future project if that tells you anything. (There is always something going on behind the scenes).
Regardless of his motivations,you must agree BMW doesnt build 3klb cars anymore. Porsche,GM,Mazda ... still do.

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      07-10-2012, 01:24 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by G328i View Post
They just built the M3 GTS for fucks sake.
You're right. But they made it available to no one. It would be a different story if they made a worldwide variant of the GTS priced it at 90k and made it as available as the GT3/GT3rs is.
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